The rehabilitation of Mat

[Scarloc99]

On a number of posts I have seen casual mention of the fact that Mat is pro slavery because of his actions surrounding Damme. Having re read the series again I found myself during this recent read a little confused because no where is this suggested. yet it seems, amongst some, to have become almost an accepted viewpoint. 

The main point of evidence for this "pro slavery" approach is given as how he treats the Damme he captures at the last battle, with some claiming that because he didn't set her free again, and instead allowed her to be collared and then work for him, he shows his true colours. However throughout that whole scene Mat has moments where he questions. He also works, even during the last battle, to start changing the Seanchan approach, getting Tuon to refer to the Aes Sedai by there given title and not as Mathre Damme.

Where has this alternative view of Mat come from? Is there something I have missed in the storytelling? As a general it would have made no sense for him to release an enemy combatant back into the war, especially one who is a walking WMD. As someone who has only just starting getting acceptance within Seanchan society he understands that maybe while fighting the most important battle in the history of the world this is not the time to start changing fundamental Seanchan values and ideals, and, he has seen that Egwene has already put some of those facts out there. 

Interested to hear other peoples thoughts on this revisionist idea of Mat. 

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

Mat always struck me as a character who didn’t want to be a “hero” and told himself that he had no interest in the whole and was just trying to look out for number one. But if you forgive me for the cliche, actions speak louder than words. He wasn’t comfortable with seeing himself as a “hero” or humanitarian, yet one way or another he found himself reluctantly in that role. What I gained from this is that, this character isn’t consciously trying to do the “right thing “ and therefore can’t possibly make decisions that are consistently considered “perfectly and selflessly” informed, but when it comes down to it, he did almost always act (admittedly reluctantly) in ways that contradict his own beliefs and attempts to convince himself otherwise. Additionally the fact that he doesn’t want to be and isn’t trying to be a hero or savior yet is anyway is IMO the best evidence that he is genuinely and authentically exactly that. The best and most suitable leader is typically someone who has no desire to take on that role. 

[DojoToad]

I never thought Mat was pro slavery.

 

Uncollaring captured damane during a battle makes no sense.  Though some would gratefully accept their freedom, many more were broken and would be a danger to all around them.  Time enough after the Battle to sort out what to do with them.

[Scarloc99]

3 hours ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

Mat always struck me as a character who didn’t want to be a “hero” and told himself that he had no interest in the whole and was just trying to look out for number one. But if you forgive me for the cliche, actions speak louder than words. He wasn’t comfortable with seeing himself as a “hero” or humanitarian, yet one way or another he found himself reluctantly in that role. What I gained from this is that, this character isn’t consciously trying to do the “right thing “ and therefore can’t possibly make decisions that are consistently considered “perfectly and selflessly” informed, but when it comes down to it, he did almost always act (admittedly reluctantly) in ways that contradict his own beliefs and attempts to convince himself otherwise. Additionally the fact that he doesn’t want to be and isn’t trying to be a hero or savior yet is anyway is IMO the best evidence that he is genuinely and authentically exactly that. The best and most suitable leader is typically someone who has no desire to take on that role. 

Egwene makes a comment right when Mat tells her Gareth is tanking the battle, where she tells a story about Mat. I don’t have the book to hand and am trying to remember it but Years ago a child had fallen into the river and I think pretended to be drowning or was not in real difficulty, Mat had dived in to save them and then been laughed at for doing so. As he had walked off he had made a comment about “save your bloody selves next time then I won’t do it.” A year later however another child was in the same predicament and Mat again dived in and this time did save the child from dying. 
 

as she says Mat can be insufferable, refuse to accept responsibility, be stubborn and wool headed but, he always does the right thing and always thinks of, looks out for and protects others. 
 

Mat never wanted to be a hero, never wanted to put himself in danger, but, when needed he always did the right thing, that just wasn’t always the thing others thought he should do in that moment, but always turns out to be the right choice long term. 

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

On 8/15/2023 at 7:32 AM, Sir_Charrid said:

Egwene makes a comment right when Mat tells her Gareth is tanking the battle, where she tells a story about Mat. I don’t have the book to hand and am trying to remember it but Years ago a child had fallen into the river and I think pretended to be drowning or was not in real difficulty, Mat had dived in to save them and then been laughed at for doing so. As he had walked off he had made a comment about “save your bloody selves next time then I won’t do it.” A year later however another child was in the same predicament and Mat again dived in and this time did save the child from dying. 
 

as she says Mat can be insufferable, refuse to accept responsibility, be stubborn and wool headed but, he always does the right thing and always thinks of, looks out for and protects others. 
 

Mat never wanted to be a hero, never wanted to put himself in danger, but, when needed he always did the right thing, that just wasn’t always the thing others thought he should do in that moment, but always turns out to be the right choice long term. 

Absolutely. Well said. Not only wasn’t always what others thought he should do, but usually even he didn’t think he should do it 😂 He is the best example of a reluctant hero that I can think of. He took olver in. He rescued the women from ebou dar and was deeply troubled by the inevitable losses of lives and the inability to save everyone. Even after he put himself at risk to rescue the girls in tear, and subsequently was not appreciated for his efforts, he was still prepared to risk his life again and again for people with no benefit to himself. Case in point, moiraine. He not only knowingly put himself in danger, he paid a hefty price for her life and freedom. I think he is such a genuine person with inherent integrity, in spite of or more likely because of his lack of awareness and intention Or trying to be a noble hero. The perception and treatment of him by the girls always makes me have a hard time liking them. 

[swollymammoth]

Wait so Mat wasn't pro-slavery? Dang. All this time I thought he was based smh

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Definitely Mat is something of the ultimate hero. 

 

Rand has a duty that he does not want, but tries his best to do the best for everyone. But if he could have not been the Dragon, he would have run. Understandable, but really he is trying to make the best of a bad situation. And the gleeful way that he shirks the you must die to save the world duty, still does not sit well with me. Now if he had ridden off on Bela, the symbol of the Emond's Field Six, the last minute addition to their quest at the behest of the pattern (Egwene was only coming to be buttocks on her saddle), a metaphor for the raising by Tam and the Manetheren sensibilities that was root of why Rand succeeded and Lews Therin failed, I think we could have had a nice coming back to the start again. OK, not riding, leading her pulling a cart with his stuff, juxtaposing the first chapter. But I digress again (as is my wont).

 

Perrin is somewhat selfish (perhaps not the best way to put it), in a heroic way, but is always looking out for his wife, family, home. He is a hero, but things like rescuing Gaul he did because he wanted to.  In many way Perrin is the weak link, as he himself is aware that he would let the Dark One win to save Faile, but he is saved from that possibility by his story lines taking so long there simply was not space in the books, not even WoT.

 

Mat on the otherhand does a whole bunch of things that he doesn't want to do. Saves people who don't like him, battles shadowspawn assassins with only pendant to protect himself, has body parts cut out for other people. And he wears a hat, you always need a good hat if you want to be a hero. And though he tries to avoid these situations, as long as that house is burning with the kids inside, he is going to get them. He would not shirk off that duty if he could. This goes all the way back to the first book I think? Where Moiraine is comparing him to an uncle she had? Actually that does not seem like I am remembering that correctly, does not seem like a story out of the Cairhein royal palace, but sure it happens very early in the book, [thinking about it, it is a much more folky-story so probably Siuan or Leanne after the healing, so not quite the first book where to be fair Mat is fairly two-dimensional, and hasn't yet bought all his knives, had a crash training in throwing that everyone gets from Thom apparently, and remembered that he has quarterstaff, something suspiciously absent from the first book when they are setting out and despairing over not knowing how to use weapons outside of the bow] setting out Mat's character before we see it action, captured badgers notwithstanding.

 

The taking of the damane I don't think goes against this. In the battle, he could have captured her or killed her. Capturing is the more humane option here. Afterwards, the lifelong enslavement with brutal torture, might not be a better option than a clean death, but I can only imagine that the whole damane issue was being left to the sequels, where all of this would have been dealt with, and Mat's personal damane would probably have featured large in this story line.

Edited September 15, 2023 by HeavyHalfMoonBlade
to shirk or not to shirk, that is the question, plus memory percolation