Why not follow the books more closely?

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, henrywho said:

Remember in the books he didn't kill his non existent wife and turn into a blubbering mess. His only self concerns are his eye colour and the abilities that came with them. 

Yep. I do remember that. Giving him a slightly different backstory that serves to externalize his fear of harming others didn’t ruin his character for me. I’m sorry it did for you. 

[henrywho]

2 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

He’s forthright, staunch and determined in the show. He also, somewhat famously, considers himself to be a clumsy lummox in the books. 

Clumsy is not moping or dreary or so down you feel a need to slap him silly.

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, henrywho said:

Clumsy is not moping or dreary or so down you feel a need to slap him silly.

No one said otherwise. Nor have I ever felt the need to slap a fictional character. 

 

[henrywho]

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

Yep. I do remember that. Giving him a slightly different backstory that serves to externalize his fear of harming others didn’t ruin his character for me. I’m sorry it did for you. 

You are right his backstory in the series did not send that message to me, I doubt many saw that message. I get that later on he is fearful of hurting people because of his wolf abilities but I got no message, hidden or otherwise, from the death of his non-existent wife except it made him sad and regretful.

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, henrywho said:

I get that later on he is fearful of hurting people because of his wolf abilities but I got no message, hidden or otherwise, from the death of his non-existent wife except it made him sad and regretful.

It isn’t later on. And it isn’t exclusively to do with his abilities as a wolfbrother. Perrin’s core trait is his fear of hurting others because he is big and strong and feels like a bull in a china shop. 
 

That’s awfully hard to put on screen. So they changed it and made it more visceral. I didn’t love it, but it made the point: Perrin is overly cautious about hurting people because he’s afraid to hurt someone he loves. This is only going to get worse as he gets more wolfish - just like in the books. 

 

[henrywho]

5 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Nor have I ever felt the need to slap a fictional character. 

 

Come on! You seriously don't want to punch Liandrin Guirale right in her square face !!! . Three or four times at least.

[henrywho]

2 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

It isn’t later on. And it isn’t exclusively to do with his abilities as a wolfbrother. Perrin’s core trait is his fear of hurting others because he is big and strong and feels like a bull in a china shop. 
 

That’s awfully hard to put on screen. So they changed it and made it more visceral. I didn’t love it, but it made the point: Perrin is overly cautious about hurting people because he’s afraid to hurt someone he loves. This is only going to get worse as he gets more wolfish - just like in the books. 

 

As I said I did NOT get that inference from episode one, at all, it simply wasn't there as far as I could tell. In the books it's clear from the outset he is concerned about the possibility of hurting someone because of his size and strength. But it's hardly his defining characteristic. Perrin is far more than his fear of hurting people regardless of how that might happen. The series fails to make that point from my viewing of it and I've watched it more than once now. It's not too bad to watch so long as I think of it as NOT TWoT.

[henrywho]

IMHO the books of "The Wheel of Time" are epic! I can see myself listening to them over and over as the years go by. Better than "A Song of Ice and Fire." even more so as considering George is still alive and has still not finished writing the books. Still waiting for book 6 George!!!

It's a shame that the TV series "Game of Thrones" will be heralded and "The Wheel of Time" will not. TWoT  for me is a far more enjoyable listen/read. The TV series is not the books and only just passable.

[henrywho]

On 11/11/2023 at 12:00 PM, Shawlee said:

I just don't like their agenda, and disregard for the literary world RJ created. Flaw and all it's His story, not yours. Be respectful 🙏 that's all I ask.

 

Well said! It should be called "Not the Wheel of Time". In the credits they could put.

"So loosely based on the Robert Jordan books as to not actually resemble them in any significant way."

[henrywho]

2 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

He’s forthright, staunch and determined in the show.

Some how I missed that... You are CLEARLY watching a different adaptation, please send me a link to the one you are viewing.

[Elder_Haman]

35 minutes ago, henrywho said:

Some how I missed that... You are CLEARLY watching a different adaptation, please send me a link to the one you are viewing.

Forthright: characterized by directness in manner or speech; without subtlety or evasion. That aptly describes Perrin in the show. 
 

Staunch: loyal and committed in attitude. Again, aptly describes Perrin in the show. 
 

Determined: processing or displaying resolve. Once again, apt. 
 

Can you please explain where Perrin in the tv show fails to display these qualities?

 

 

[henrywho]

16 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

Forthright: characterized by directness in manner or speech; without subtlety or evasion. That aptly describes Perrin in the show. 
 

Staunch: loyal and committed in attitude. Again, aptly describes Perrin in the show. 
 

Determined: processing or displaying resolve. Once again, apt. 
 

Can you please explain where Perrin in the tv show fails to display these qualities?

 

 

Right from the top of my head, his journey with Egwene from Shadar Logoth. Almost every time his face is on the screen aside from that, almost. Like most people he has his moments.

[Elder_Haman]

16 minutes ago, henrywho said:

Right from the top of my head, his journey with Egwene from Shadar Logoth. Almost every time his face is on the screen aside from that, almost. Like most people he has his moments.

I don’t follow. He was dogged in defense of Egwene. Protective of her with everyone they encountered. Determined to find Rand. Exactly the qualities you described. 

[henrywho]

21 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

As I said, I disagree entirely. It is still the Wheel of Time, adapted for television. 

 

Ah I see now!

In your dictionary "adapted" and "obliterated" have a similar meaning. Now I understand.

 

A side note influenced by the above:

 

Rosamund Pike not only plays Moiraine, she is a producer of the show.

In the books Moiraine vanishes for a significant  amount of time, a whole books worth I think or bloody close to it. Rosamund Pike is a fine actress but if you think she will allow herself to be cut from what should be 2 seasons of the show, I suggest you think again.

Perrin is not married in the books until some time after book 4. The writers of the show will have to perform some logic defying plot gymnastics to transform Perrin into some one with enough positive emotions  to even consider the idea of, let along actually, falling in love. Of course there is the moronic and cliche undertone, started right from the first episode, of Perrin being in love with Egwene even while he was married. This could easily be rehashed more than it already has been. Let's hope not. Will the writers even bother with Zarine (Faile) Bashere.

 

I hope most everyone  understands that what the writers are doing here is like traveling back in time. Every change made now ripples forward with ever increasing effects. 

 

Go back in time and stop a cat from crossing a road. A cat that would have caused a cyclist to swerve to avoid it and prevent a crash into an on coming car. Instead the cyclist gets collected by the car and dies.

Jump forward back to your own time and everything is different. Democracy is dead, some countries no longer exist etc etc. One of the children the cyclist who died should have had should have grown up to be an influencer of world leaders and should have prevented several rash decisions. You get the idea.

So it is with the writing of the TWoT. Every change they have made already and every change they make going forward changes what can be written after.

They are not going to make 13 or 14 seasons of this series. They'll be lucky if it's not canned after season 3. So big plot and story changes WILL happen, yes even more than has already been done!, it's inevitable.

So if you are a fan of the books and decide to watch the series just forget everything you've read from the books and watch the series for what it is. "Not The Wheel of Time". There are far worse things you could try and watch.

 

Edited April 7 by henrywho
Something weird happend !

[Elder_Haman]

25 minutes ago, henrywho said:

 

Ah it's all perfectly clear to me now!

In your dictionary "adapted" and "obliterated" have a similar meaning. Of course, now you're making sense.

 

You do realise that with every episode still to come as with every episode already shown that the series will get further and further away from the books. Rosamund Pike not only plays Moiraine Damodred she is one of the producers. In the books Moiraine disappears for a long time. Possibly for most of a book. I can't remember exactly but it's a very long time. This will not happen in the series. Rosamund Pike is a fine actress but she is not going the let herself be written out for that amount of time.

Perrin was not married in the books until much later, after book 4 at least. In his current condition the writers are going to have to perform some logic defying plot gymnastics to get him in any condition close enough to feel enough positive emotions to ever marry! That being said these writers are not particularly good or consistent so I should not be surprised by anything that the show does. 

Every change they make now ripples forward

 

I’m sorry it hasn’t worked for you so far. Maybe the challenges of writing season 3 and beyond will be too much, but so far I’m quite enjoying it. I’m excited to see what happens. 

[henrywho]

Something weird happened whilst writing my last. When I tried to recover it I could not so I wrote it again. Then I discovered my partially written message had been posted so I've attempted to correct.

Edited April 7 by henrywho
Something weird happened whilst writing my last.

[henrywho]

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

I don’t follow. He was dogged in defense of Egwene. Protective of her with everyone they encountered. Determined to find Rand. Exactly the qualities you described. 

Egwene is an enigma when it comes to Perrin. The drop kick writers have included this moronic undertone that Perrin has been in love with Egwene from the first episode, even whilst married.

This only makes Perrin more unlikable and smudges his limp character even more. I'm sorry. There is no similarity between Perrin of the book and the series except superficially. Perrin of the series is a deeply flawed individual, I don't see that in the Perrin of the books.

That being said it is possible that the writers assassination of Perrin's character from the books in season one is colouring my perceptions further along.

[Elder_Haman]

16 minutes ago, henrywho said:

This only makes Perrin more unlikable and smudges his limp character even more. I'm sorry. There is no similarity between Perrin of the book and the series except superficially. Perrin of the series is a deeply flawed individual, I don't see that in the Perrin of the books.

But you told me the important characteristics Perrin has in the books are that he is staunch, forthright and determined. I gave you examples of him being exactly that in the show. 
 

So there is similarity between Perrin in the show and Perrin in the books. You find him unlikeable, that’s fine. But you haven’t really made the case that he’s different from the books (other than the obvious change to his origin story.)

[henrywho]

5 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

I don’t follow. He was dogged in defense of Egwene. Protective of her with everyone they encountered. Determined to find Rand. Exactly the qualities you described. 

Dogged..Egwene. Protective..Egwene I've explained.

Deteremind to find Rand.... Hmmm Why is he? Is the answer to that a good or a bad one?, does it have anything to do with Egwene??? Think on it.

I may just re-watch that episode so I can better answer if you have more questions.

[Elder_Haman]

15 minutes ago, henrywho said:

Dogged..Egwene. Protective..Egwene I've explained.

Deteremind to find Rand.... Hmmm Why is he? Is the answer to that a good or a bad one?, does it have anything to do with Egwene??? Think on it.

I may just re-watch that episode so I can better answer if you have more questions.

He was doggedly protective of Egwene in the books as well. He is determined to find Rand because Rand is his friend. It had nothing to do with Egwene. What Perrin saw within Machin Shin was not real, but a manifestation of his inner insecurities. The “love triangle” was not actually a thing, but Nynaeve misreading the entire situation. 
 

I agree that it didn’t land quite right. But once again, you’re not making the case for Perrin being somehow “destroyed” by the show. 

[henrywho]

Perrin E2. Little dialogue. Mopy sad sack.

Perrin E3. Overought and so scared he can't start a fire. Comforts Egwene, hardy surprising. So far no determination to find anyone. Just heading in the direction he thinks Rand and Mat will be.

Perrin E4. Suspicious of the Tinkers. Jealous of the Tinker boy.  Smiles for the first time.

1st 4 episodes no determination of any kind except to be miserable and no doggedness.

 

Nothing like Perrin in the Books.

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, henrywho said:

Perrin E2. Little dialogue. Mopy sad sack.

Perrin E3. Overought and so scared he can't start a fire. Comforts Egwene, hardy surprising. So far no determination to find anyone. Just heading in the direction he thinks Rand and Mat will be.

Perrin E4. Suspicious of the Tinkers. Jealous of the Tinker boy.  Smiles for the first time.

1st 4 episodes no determination of any kind except to be miserable and no doggedness.

 

Nothing like Perrin in the Books.

Just gonna have to disagree. He’s not exactly like book Perrin, but he has the same core qualities. He acts the way book Perrin would if book Perrin had killed his wife on winter night. 

[henrywho]

25 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

He is determined to find Rand because Rand is his friend. It had nothing to do with Egwene.

 

He is not. He suggests that he and Egwene keep heading on because that's where Rand will go because Perrin believes Rand will go where Egwene will be. No determination, just a suggestion. He is afraid and wants to be around people he knows and can help keep Egwene safe.

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, henrywho said:

He is not. He suggests that he and Egwene keep heading on because that's where Rand will go because Perrin believes Rand will go where Egwene will be. No determination, just a suggestion. He is afraid and wants to be around people he knows and can help keep Egwene safe.

Your point is what? He keeps them moving. He keeps Egwene safe. He knows how his friend thinks and makes sure Egwene goes to the Tower to find Rand. I can’t understand how this is so bothersome. 

[henrywho]

9 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Just gonna have to disagree. He’s not exactly like book Perrin, but he has the same core qualities. He acts the way book Perrin would if book Perrin had killed his wife on winter night. 

No sorry nothing alike. If book Perrin had been married and she had died at his hand he would be sad and upset and possibly secretive about it, but he would not be a useless mopy sad sack. Especially with everything that's happening around them. Book Perrin would have come forward sooner and explained the truth behind non-existent wifes death and acknowledged to himself it was a tragic accident. Book Perrin also has no feelings for Egwene except friendship. The TV series wants you to believe he's been in love with her since birth.