Rewatching season 1 before season 2 starts

[Mirefox]

Just now, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

I would imagine not, though if you remember he had a lot on his plate at that moment. But no, for all Nynaeve's tracking skills, I would not have said she should have been able to sneak up on Lan.

 

Let me ask you a question in return. Did this set up a visually compelling dramatic surprise, a tense cliffhanger, and the opportunity for humour and character building where Nynaeve does try to stab him (which he foils easily). And a small follow up question, if yes, is there any need to look further for motivation, and if no (it was bad writing) is there any need to look further if we accept that is what they were trying to do?

 

Ok, my follow up was simply going to be that it means they either made Nyn better than she already was (follow up to that, was she not strong enough in the books and needed improving), or did they make Lan worse than he was in the books?  It has to be one of them.

 

To answer your questions, if you wanted humor and character building, the exact same could have been accomplished if he beat her to the punch, got his sword to her, had her act surprised and tried to stab him.  Its the exact same effect visually, it stays true to the books, and it doesn't alter the characters.

 

The problem here, and I completely understand that we have disagreement and I'm trying to be respectful of what you're saying, is that the showrunner has admitted to using this show to further his feminist worldview.  Further, without getting into philosophical discussions of feminism, Rafe's brand of feminism is not about egalitarianism, it is about the destruction of gender norms.  This isn't me ranting about feminism, it is the reality of postmodern feminist ideology.  If you or anyone subscribes to it, that is fine, and I don't want to get into an argument about that.

 

But what we clearly have is someone who is using the show as a platform to attack traditional gender norms rather than present the egalitarian feminism that Jordan subscribed to.  That is why we do not see gendered sadin/saidar, and that is why you will never hear a discussion about how men have to dominate the One Power while women have to submit to it.

 

If they had one scene for humor where Nyn gets the drop on Lan I wouldn't be as concerned about it if I were viewing it in a vacuum.  The issue is that little scenes like this happen continually through the run of the show and it becomes obvious that there is more to it than characterization.

 

That is why I asked my question.  By its very change to the show, either a woman was made better or more capable than she was in the books or a man was made worse or less capable.  When you have a pattern of small scenes like this and it is continually one way over the other, in a way that supports what the showrunner said he was going to do, it becomes more than just characterization and humor.

 

I'm all for strong and amazing women.  I think they jumped the gun a little on their powers in this show but they've reined it in a bit.  I'm looking forward to them maybe unleashing some hell on the Seanchen in the next few episodes.  But I will admit I'm a Jordan feminist, not a Judkins feminist.

[Ralph]

On gender: the book series is more about gender than it is about women and men. The story as-is tackled some modern issues of gender. It isn’t hard as other book series because this stuff is in the books. Trying to “stay true to the intention” of the books. He gave the example of something that might have seemed feminist at the time of publication but no longer by today’s standard, you have to update it to maintain that intent. It’s more about balance between the genders than it is about women.

 

 

is this the quote you keep referring to? 

1 hour ago, Mirefox said:

 

The problem here, and I completely understand that we have disagreement and I'm trying to be respectful of what you're saying, is that the showrunner has admitted to using this show to further his feminist worldview.  Further, without getting into philosophical discussions of feminism, Rafe's brand of feminism is not about egalitarianism, it is about the destruction of gender norms.  This isn't me ranting about feminism, it is the reality of postmodern feminist ideology.  If you or anyone subscribes to it, that is fine, and I don't want to get into an argument about that.

 

But what we clearly have is someone who is using the show as a platform to attack traditional gender norms rather than present the egalitarian feminism that Jordan subscribed to.  That is why we do not see gendered sadin/saidar, and that is why you will never hear a discussion about how men have to dominate the One Power while women have to submit to it.

 

 

can I ask - did you have a problem with Brandon adding in gay characters which RJ had not thought necessary? 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

1 hour ago, Mirefox said:

 

Ok, my follow up was simply going to be that it means they either made Nyn better than she already was (follow up to that, was she not strong enough in the books and needed improving), or did they make Lan worse than he was in the books?  It has to be one of them.

 

To answer your questions, if you wanted humor and character building, the exact same could have been accomplished if he beat her to the punch, got his sword to her, had her act surprised and tried to stab him.  Its the exact same effect visually, it stays true to the books, and it doesn't alter the characters.

 

The problem here, and I completely understand that we have disagreement and I'm trying to be respectful of what you're saying, is that the showrunner has admitted to using this show to further his feminist worldview.  Further, without getting into philosophical discussions of feminism, Rafe's brand of feminism is not about egalitarianism, it is about the destruction of gender norms.  This isn't me ranting about feminism, it is the reality of postmodern feminist ideology.  If you or anyone subscribes to it, that is fine, and I don't want to get into an argument about that.

 

But what we clearly have is someone who is using the show as a platform to attack traditional gender norms rather than present the egalitarian feminism that Jordan subscribed to.  That is why we do not see gendered sadin/saidar, and that is why you will never hear a discussion about how men have to dominate the One Power while women have to submit to it.

 

If they had one scene for humor where Nyn gets the drop on Lan I wouldn't be as concerned about it if I were viewing it in a vacuum.  The issue is that little scenes like this happen continually through the run of the show and it becomes obvious that there is more to it than characterization.

 

That is why I asked my question.  By its very change to the show, either a woman was made better or more capable than she was in the books or a man was made worse or less capable.  When you have a pattern of small scenes like this and it is continually one way over the other, in a way that supports what the showrunner said he was going to do, it becomes more than just characterization and humor.

 

I'm all for strong and amazing women.  I think they jumped the gun a little on their powers in this show but they've reined it in a bit.  I'm looking forward to them maybe unleashing some hell on the Seanchen in the next few episodes.  But I will admit I'm a Jordan feminist, not a Judkins feminist.

Well, again I would say that you are ignoring the visual effect, planned out on a story board. Lan is bent over Moiraine, tending her as she lies there wan and pale. Then a knife comes into view at his throat. Then reverse view, it's Nynaeve, shocker! Queue bad-ass one liner, and run credits. But whether or not you think this is good TV, too many people are instead looking for reasons why this or that has happened. And if it can in some form be chalked up as empowering the female characters or downplaying the male ones, then it is added to a list. But all the other points which don't make this list are just ignored. There are other reasons for degendering the One Power. There are other reasons for degendering souls. It does not have to be about making women better than men, that is an agenda that others have brought to the table without me seeing any sign of it in the show. 

 

I've seen many arguments against "aggressive" or "third-wave" or "modern" feminism, that all seem to come down to that equality means 50/50, and if women have more than 50% then that is sexism, discrimination, misandry. But it is like what that Supreme Judge (whose name escapes me at the moment) said, for equality if it is OK that all the Supreme Judges are male, it has to be OK that they are all female, not just rationed to 50%. And if you look at these arguments against these types of feminism, you will see that they look amazing similiar to the arguments in the past that made against feminism, that it is an attack on family and traditional values, that it is an attack on masculinity, on femininity, etc. It is the same argument, the same defense of the status quo, except with a meaningless adjective added before feminism and people seem to genuinely think it is a new argument.

 

Many say that feminism is hard to define. To me it is not. I have two kids, one son, one daughter. If you are a feminist, when I say one wants to be a nurse, or a doctor, or a stay at home parent, or has a new boyfriend, or is moving in with an older woman, or whatever, you don't need to ask which one to know what you feel about it. To me it is that simple.

 

We should be looking at the show in terms of is it good TV and how is it treating the source. Not scouring it for instances where female characters are "buffed" and males "nerfed", especially not when ignoring the counter examples.

 

I don't doubt that Jordan meant well, and I think he has a very strong female voice in his book, which he did not need to have. But there are huge problems with his view of the genders, with his equal societies that actually just have different gender roles and how in so many of them (Seanchan excepted) those gender roles are absolutely unbreakable, Domani merchants, sister-wives, wavemistresses, cargomasters, etc, etc,. And that is not even going into the role that corporal punishment plays in the story, both as a background noise and as a plot mechanic. Or they way that the main female characters are universally beautiful, large breasted, flat stomached and slim hipped. Or that Aemon was as brave as a man could be and his wife was as beautiful as could be, so were the perfect couple. Or how the women fight like cats over men. Or slut shame each other's clothing. Or the male gaze apparent in the narration, with women stripping off left, right and center, folding there arms under their breasts, having rings nestling between their breasts... Calling yourself a Jordan feminist is nearly on par with saying, I like women, but they need a damn good spanking. That was a joke. But you simply cannot hide behind that the book is feminist enough that you cannot possible critique it. It just is not so.

Edited September 20, 2023 by HeavyHalfMoonBlade
apparently you have to put the word "not" in the right place for it to make sense...

[SinisterDeath]

2 hours ago, Mirefox said:

 

I hope so, but they've upped the ante because now he has to compete with Super-Saiyan Nyn's mass healings and the women at Tarwin's gap.  He'll need a Dumai's Wells moment.

Nynaeve's healing wasn't Super Saiyan, her hair didn't even turn golden!

 

In that particular scene, she directly healed Lan via touch; and yes while she AoE healed people nearby, that was something she did in the books.

Most of those wounds were superficial with the exception of Moiraine's. 

 

[VooDooNut]

I think if we look at the power levels shown in the show so far, it makes sense to have this kind of (super saiyaman) visualization around raw POWERFUL uses of the one power.

 

It comes across as a little silly, from a meta perspective, but I think in the context of the greater show (optimistically 8 seasons) they are slowly building a visual language for qualities of channeling. It'll be interesting to see how they continue from here.

 

The irony is that Dragon Ball Z (super, etc.) have fallen into a trap of infinite ceilings of power and how can they visualize that. Spoiler:

Spoiler

they can't

I would hope WoT wouldn't fall into the same trap,. Based on what we've seen so far, in terms of variety, (compare the weavings of the Forsaken to those of the Aes Sedai, Nynaeve, or Rand) I don't think it will.