More info about warders?

[dubz]

To stay on topic with warders, does anyone know the subleties of warder bonding?

 

Female bonding male,

female bonding female,

male bonding female, and

male bonding male (is it possible)?

 

Just wondering? What does everyone gain/lose?

Advantages/disadvantages and the likes.

[redbj]

i think its like having a butler/maid who can fight....kinda anyhoo.

[Beckon]

I would imagine the male/male thing is possible since female/female and male/female are.

 

Off the top of my head, the female/female seems to work a little different as far as the sensing of emotions. Birgitte and Elayne seem to actually experience the others feelings as opposed to simply being aware of them. Remember Elayne acting drunk while Birgitte was out getting wasted with Mat in Ebou Dar? There is also the scene where Birgitte is feeling through Elayne when she and Rand are having sex in WH.

[Luckers]

Mmm. By the way, has anyopne else noticed that Nicola and Areina do exactly the same sort of things as Birgitte and Elayne?

[RobertAlexWillis]

I wonder if a male/male bond would cause the same kind of emotional sharing that a female/female bond did? Saidar is more emotionally tuned than saidin ... female channelers talk about the joy of embracing the Source, whereas a male channeler's experience is very different.

 

That said, indications are that a same sex bond creates differences. So, I wonder what they would be in a male/male bond?

[Luckers]

Myself, im thinking something like 300.

 

Slow motion, billowing capes, and heavy homo-eroticism.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Well ... we do know what the bond does for sex ...

[Luckers]

So what you are saying is that Birgitte is the father of Elaynes children?

[RobertAlexWillis]

:roll: Hardly. Elayne's not ugly enough for her, and she's not Elayne's only warder.

[Skowsa]

I would imagine the male/male thing is possible since female/female and male/female are.

 

Off the top of my head' date=' the female/female seems to work a little different as far as the sensing of emotions. Birgitte and Elayne seem to actually experience the others feelings as opposed to simply being aware of them. Remember Elayne acting drunk while Birgitte was out getting wasted with Mat in Ebou Dar? There is also the scene where Birgitte is feeling through Elayne when she and Rand are having sex in WH.[/quote']

I actually think that there was such a close affinity between Elayne and Birgitte because they were both female. Not trying to be facetious or anything, but men and women generally don't understand each others emotions all that well. Maybe that is why a female-female (or maybe even a male-male) bond works so closely. They already understand the base emotions and so are able to understand the more intricate emotions clearer. Just an idea.

[Lord Beric]

I've been thinking about the relations between the warder bond and other bonds we've seen throughout the story. Circles/linking, the a'dam, the male a'dam, the Aiel sister-bonding, the Asha'man wife-bonding and the related Asha'man to Aes Sedai bond. The one thing we haven't seen is a male-male bond, and I have a feeling we won't.

 

The reasoning behind this being: bonding seems to have a relationship to linking, both in the way the feelings are described, and in the results (i.e. someone always has control). The main difference seems to be that in bonding, channeling is not a prerequisite. A logical extension of this would be that, for the same reason two male channelers cannot link, two men could not be bonded to one another. Of course, this is based entirely on the assumption that bonding and linking are related in more than superficial ways, and I may be entirely wrong here, but it SEEMS to make sense.

[Beckon]

I would imagine the male/male thing is possible since female/female and male/female are.

 

Off the top of my head' date=' the female/female seems to work a little different as far as the sensing of emotions. Birgitte and Elayne seem to actually experience the others feelings as opposed to simply being aware of them. Remember Elayne acting drunk while Birgitte was out getting wasted with Mat in Ebou Dar? There is also the scene where Birgitte is feeling through Elayne when she and Rand are having sex in WH.[/quote']

I actually think that there was such a close affinity between Elayne and Birgitte because they were both female. Not trying to be facetious or anything, but men and women generally don't understand each others emotions all that well. Maybe that is why a female-female (or maybe even a male-male) bond works so closely. They already understand the base emotions and so are able to understand the more intricate emotions clearer. Just an idea.

 

I don't think it's a matter of understanding. Birgitte seems to physically feeling Elayne's sensations in the WH scene. Her knees buckle and Min and Avi have to catch her. There's another scene where they're each angry about something and Elayne finds that the anger is being maginified as it passes back and forth along the bond, until it's way out of proportion with whatever caused it.

[Hero of Satsuma]

I would imagine the male/male thing is possible since female/female and male/female are.

 

Off the top of my head' date=' the female/female seems to work a little different as far as the sensing of emotions. Birgitte and Elayne seem to actually experience the others feelings as opposed to simply being aware of them. Remember Elayne acting drunk while Birgitte was out getting wasted with Mat in Ebou Dar? There is also the scene where Birgitte is feeling through Elayne when she and Rand are having sex in WH.[/quote']

I actually think that there was such a close affinity between Elayne and Birgitte because they were both female. Not trying to be facetious or anything, but men and women generally don't understand each others emotions all that well. Maybe that is why a female-female (or maybe even a male-male) bond works so closely. They already understand the base emotions and so are able to understand the more intricate emotions clearer. Just an idea.

 

I don't think it's a matter of understanding. Birgitte seems to physically feeling Elayne's sensations in the WH scene. Her knees buckle and Min and Avi have to catch her. There's another scene where they're each angry about something and Elayne finds that the anger is being maginified as it passes back and forth along the bond, until it's way out of proportion with whatever caused it.

 

Another example is when Birgitte is out getting drunk with Matt, Elayne gets a bit tipsy herself even though she had naught to drink.

[padan]

Another thought that I had is that perhaps befor ethe breaking (and thus before the taint on saidin), male/male bonding took place. There are no actual proofs of this, however it would make sense because after the breaking male/male bonding stopped due to there being no more male aes sedai. I wonder if a male bonded a non channeling male if he would feel the tain of saidin???

[Elwinn Taron]

There was no bonding done during the AoL. It's one of the things that the new, "primative" Aes Sedai have come up with that was unknown before.

[padan]

Oh crap....competetly forgot about that :?

[Blue]

maybe elayne and birgitte mirror each other because elayne learned the weave by spying on an Aes Sedai and might have picked up a bit of it wrong or missed a bit of it. Just a thought.

[Korlaf]

thats possible...but i'd assume the bond varies slightly between Ajah's and obviously between AS and Asha'man. I think i remember reading in one of the early books (with Asha'man in them) that one of the Asha'man mentions to Rand something about his wife having fallen and scraped her knee that morning. This is when Rand first learns that the Asha'man had discovered bonding.

 

For whoever it was to know that that specifically what happened they would have to be extremely close to the one they bonded or else have a slightly different bond then we have been exposed to by Aes Sedai.

 

*************************Spoilers********************

 

 

Also when the Asha'man bond the Aes Sedai that come to destroy the black tower it seems there is somewhat of a similarity to the oath rod's effects in it. We know AS can use some form of compulsion through the bond, but the Asha'man (mainly Logain because we see it through his sister's PoV). Basically they just order the sisters not to leave camp/channel without permission etc. (which is essentially the same as Galina and the effect of her swearing to therava on the oath rod.

 

I could be wrong but this seems to be a different type of bond then what we have seen before. Especially since Alanna tries to use the bond to use compulsion on Rand and it doesn't work, so why the opposite wouldn't be true (an asha'man bond with a sister) i can only guess is a difference in the weaving!

[jowhn]

flinn states that it isn't a bond. the asha'man are not bonded to their wives. it was just an affinity.for each other.

[Luckers]

Actually no, it is a bond. The Aes Sedai bond is described as being the wife-bond with 'something extra'. That something extra is the compulsive aspect, but both are bonds.

 

I could be wrong but this seems to be a different type of bond then what we have seen before. Especially since Alanna tries to use the bond to use compulsion on Rand and it doesn't work, so why the opposite wouldn't be true (an asha'man bond with a sister) i can only guess is a difference in the weaving!

 

Alanna's failure to compel Rand has to do with Rand being wrapped in saidin. We know from Sammael that compulsive tricks do not work on a man who is holding the source--my guess is because of either the inherent chaos of saidin disrupting any attempt to guide or influence a person touching it, or maybe that a man who is already engaged in the fight with saidin is instinctively resisting.

 

The reason behind those guesses is the fact that compulsion does work on women wrapped in saidar. We have seen it work against both Nynaeve and Elayne, and later Cyndane and Moghedian. My guess is its in the methodology; women submit to the tranquility of saidar, whilst men fight the chaos of saidin.

[Vemynal]

to elayne and brigget: It also mentions during elaynes POV that her "flows" moved a week to match brigites.

 

So there are physical effects to a same gender bond.

 

And men can be bonded to each other at the least: in the Aiel "first (sibling)" ritual they bond two people who in some cases neither can use the power, while the user who bonds them isnt part of it.

 

I believe men can bond each other since men are able to invoke a bond in the first place, where as with linking they cant.

[Tenshin_Xo]

The Aiel sibling bond is extremely different from the warder bond.

 

The gender effects of the warder bond may be gender specific. Men may have totally different side effects. I think that Elayne and Birgitte have such an affinity through their bond because of the natural empathy many women and these two in particular have.