My Theories on Taim and Logain

[Majestic]

So I have been thinking on this for a long time, personally I don't believe Taim is a forsaken or even a minor forsaken due to certain facts. When Rand told Taim to create the Black Tower he created a gateway and Taim was surprised and quickly learned the weave, so if he was even a minor forsaken i would think he would know how to travel.

 

It is also known that the Third age is an age long gone and an age yet to come, so we know that the Asha-man won't last until the Age of Legends once it comes again. I believe Taim will lead the Asha-man agaist Rand on Tarmon Gai'don and be destroyed by the male Aes Sedai

 

We know that in a point in history there are Male Aes Sedai who were led by Lews Therin Telamon, thus proving that they prevail at some point in time.

 

So I believe all those Asha-man who were bonded to the female Aes Sedai will want to become part of the White Tower themselves, thus introducing the male Aes Sedai again which i think will be led by Logain, because of Min's viewings of great glory.

 

And since Logain now knows Blossoms of Fire, he can teach the rest of the others who follow him and wipe out the Asha-man quite easily once they come to TG.

 

Thats primarily what i have thought of, please let me know your thoughts!

[Paradox]

Well Taim could have been surprised that Rand knew how to travel and/or he could have risen in rank after that incident.

 

Also isn't channeling suppose to be forgotten completely at some point at the turning of the wheel. personally I don't see that happening until the 5th or 6th age.

[Majestic]

Also isn't channeling suppose to be forgotten completely at some point at the turning of the wheel. personally I don't see that happening until the 5th or 6th age.

 

Where does it say that?

[Beckon]

Per RJ. I can't point to exact quotes but there's been some discussion on the point. It's either the beginning of the Age of Legends or sometime in the age prior where people first began to discover channeling.

[Wolfwalker]

Well Taim could have been surprised that Rand knew how to travel and/or he could have risen in rank after that incident.

 

That was always my impression of it- that Taim was surprised that Rand knew the weave. Also, I seem to remember (apologies if I'm wrong!) that it was from Rand's POV that Taim quickly learned the weave. Taim could have already known it, and Rand just assumed he learned it quickly.

[Majestic]

What do you guys think about the Asha-man vs Male Aes Sedai theory?

[Kadere]

It was from Rand's PoV. So far we've never had Mazrim's PoV in any of the books, so it's plausible that he did know how to travel, but he obviously would have been keeping it very hidden since he WALKED to Caemlyn from the Black Hills and didn't just travel there. Or he did really learn it there from Rand, but I don't think that excludeds him from being a new Forsaken in this age afterwards, or even before hand.

 

The Ash'man vs. Male Aes Sedia sounds correct, except you're forgetting that Mazrim is also allowing the Red Ajah to bond the Asha'man. So Mazrim could end up leading Red Ajah sisters too, or he'll just lead those not bonded to the Red Ajah.

 

But I do agree that Logain will lead his Male Aes Sedai against Mazrim Taim's. I always assumed it would be Logain over Rand.

 

Plus, remember Egwene's dream about Logain stepping over Rand's body to that block in the Black Tower, and Rand's face breaking off as Logain (I believe) is laughing.

 

If you want to work all that in to it, go at it.

[Majestic]

The Ash'man vs. Male Aes Sedai sounds correct' date=' except you're forgetting that Mazrim is also allowing the Red Ajah to bond the Asha'man. So Mazrim could end up leading Red Ajah sisters too, or he'll just lead those not bonded to the Red Ajah.

 

[/quote']

 

From my point of view I thought Taim was being sarcastic when he told the Red sisters to go and ask which men would like to be bonded, which I think is none.

[Leopoled Boothe]

Also isn't channeling suppose to be forgotten completely at some point at the turning of the wheel. personally I don't see that happening until the 5th or 6th age.

 

Where does it say that?

 

Whether it says it or not the most glaring peice of evidence is tnat no one in the world today is channeling. RJ has said that Randland is, infact, suposed to be our world but in a different age. Therefore, when our age comes again channeling will have to have been completely forgotten. RJ won't say what age we are meant to be in or if WOT occures in our relative past or future. However, I believe he has left clues. People have specualted that the stories that the Two Rivers people request from Thom in EotW refer to figures from our current aged ie. Len who flew to the moon = John Glen, Alsbet the Queen of All = Queen Elizabeth I, Anla the wise counselor = Ann Landers and Mosk and Merc the waring giants = Moscow and America. Later in TSR Thom refers to Anla and Mosk and Merc as stories from the age before the age of legends. Given that Rand and co. are in the third age, that would make the AoL the second age thus placing us in the first age. In fact I've always suspected that it was the discovery of The True Sourse and channeling that marked the transition form the first age to the Age of Legends

 

So with reguard to your theory generally I like it and I think it would be really cool if it turned out that way. The only problem is that by the time the first age comes again channeling must be completely lost. Honestly, I suspect that Asha'man will remain Asha'man until such time as channeling is lost.

[Leopoled Boothe]

The Ash'man vs. Male Aes Sedai sounds correct' date=' except you're forgetting that Mazrim is also allowing the Red Ajah to bond the Asha'man. So Mazrim could end up leading Red Ajah sisters too, or he'll just lead those not bonded to the Red Ajah.

 

[/quote']

 

From my point of view I thought Taim was being sarcastic when he told the Red sisters to go and ask which men would like to be bonded, which I think is none.

 

I agree. I think Taim was basically saying "Go ahead and ask who wants to be bonded if you want too but good luck finding anyone who will agree." I suspect that the Aes Sedai who approached Taim may become the first AS to be tried (or at least subjected to some mockery of a trial) and stilled by Asha'man.

[Luckers]

So I have been thinking on this for a long time, personally I don't believe Taim is a forsaken or even a minor forsaken due to certain facts. When Rand told Taim to create the Black Tower he created a gateway and Taim was surprised and quickly learned the weave, so if he was even a minor forsaken i would think he would know how to travel.

 

I don't believe Taim is one of the old school Forsaken either, i think he is only just been raised to the level of Forsaken. I believe he was trained by one of the Forsaken, but i dont agree with your deduction that that means he would have been taught to travel. Quite the contrary i expect that his teachings were limited intentionally to keep him from becoming to dangerous to the actual Forsaken. In fact i concider it quite likely that in such a situation the ability to travel would definately be one of the things left out of the curriculum.

 

It would be on a need to know basis, akin to Alviarin being taught travelling, yet none of the other blacks. Mesaana needed her mobile. At the time of Taim's training he would not have needed to be mobile. In fact, that would likely be detrimental to the interests of the old school Forsaken.

 

It is also known that the Third age is an age long gone and an age yet to come, so we know that the Asha-man won't last until the Age of Legends once it comes again. I believe Taim will lead the Asha-man agaist Rand on Tarmon Gai'don and be destroyed by the male Aes Sedai

 

Thats seven ages away. If what we've seen of the length of ages is even a rough estimate that would be almost 21,000 years. And thats ignoring the possibility that things dont reset completely at the beginning of each age. Certainly we know that there are no channelers at all in the first age, and we know that they have no knowledge of channelers. I see no reason that male Aes Sedai need to appear now, nor for the Asha'men to disapear.

 

Taim has at best a hundred men following him. That leaves a lot of Asha'men on the side of the light. And even those Asha'men who have been bonded by Aes Sedai show no inclination at naming themselves Aes Sedai. Certainly i dont see the actual Aes Sedai allowing it. The set gender of Aes Sedai have become too ingrained.

 

We know that in a point in history there are Male Aes Sedai who were led by Lews Therin Telamon, thus proving that they prevail at some point in time.

 

Not that they prevail, but that they reappear as the ability to channel reapears when the end of the First Age comes about.

 

Incidently, Lews Therin led all of the Aes Sedai, and of those who followed him at the very end after Latra Prosae used the Fateful Concord to deadlock the Hall, there were only a little over a hundred, out of the thousands of male Aes Sedai. Not really related, i know, but yeah... Lews Therin never specifically led the male Aes Sedai as a seperate whole.

 

And since Logain now knows Blossoms of Fire, he can teach the rest of the others who follow him and wipe out the Asha-man quite easily once they come to TG.

 

The Forsaken know those weaves too, and likely more besides. Plus, im not sure i see them to be that great of an effect against another channeler. It takes time and precision to weave Blossoms of Fire, time in which a channeler could easily slice the weaves.

 

What do you guys think about the Asha-man vs Male Aes Sedai theory?

 

I simply concider it unlikely. The Aes Sedai are a female organisation now, its set in their law, in their bones. And the Asha'men show no inclination at becoming Aes Sedai. Perhaps in time some sort of intergration would be possible, when the hatred and fear caused by the taint is buried in memory and the co-operation between the genders... but for now, no, i simply don't see Asha'men declaring themselves Aes Sedai.

 

Kadere wrote:

 

The Ash'man vs. Male Aes Sedai sounds correct, except you're forgetting that Mazrim is also allowing the Red Ajah to bond the Asha'man. So Mazrim could end up leading Red Ajah sisters too, or he'll just lead those not bonded to the Red Ajah.

 

From my point of view I thought Taim was being sarcastic when he told the Red sisters to go and ask which men would like to be bonded, which I think is none.

 

I read it as more tinged with darkfriend intentions. He was laughing because he knew the chaos that this act would breed. At the very least he saw the opportunity to place darkfriend male channelers in the heart of the White Tower--potentially he even knows of the fact that men wrapped in saidin are immune to the compulsive effects of the bond, as per Sammael's comments. Furthermore is equalizes the gain the Rebels have over the Loyalists when Rand offered them Asha'men, thus prolonging the division of the tower (at least in his mind). Finally, in the long run it provides him with a stick against Elaida. 'oh no, Elaida's been forcibly bonding Asha'men. Rand, you must stop her before she destroys the light!'

 

A lie, of course... but who out of those present would contradict him? The Red Sisters, two of whom are sitters and one of whom is Elaida's Keeper. Who would Rand believe?

 

I'm not saying any of these would come to be, just that Taim had reason to laugh, at that moment. He wasn't laughing at their niavette in thinking they could convince men to be bonded, he was laughing at the danger they were in, and the fact that they didn't know it.

[Vemynal]

What was that fortelling? "The last battle done but the world not done with battle". then something about the "guardian's facing the Servants". i remember the guardians facign the servents was definantly *after* the whole "world not done with battle" bit.

 

So i think we may very well just not see a conclusion to the issue

 

 

 

oooo i just had a idea. The prelog in the 1st book was right before the breaking, from the point of view of LTT.

 

Wouldn't it be cool if The Epilogue in the very last book was some historian looking back on the "3rd age" and we find out what happens to everyone?

 

I mean some of the quotes and saying at the beginning and ending of each book say "of the 4th age" and since this is the 3rd age we know they are refering to these events in a past tense

[Luckers]

RJ has said that the very last scene involves Nynaeve.

[Phiotr AlManera]

I don't get how channelling can be forgotten. There should be problems with people being born with the spark then.

At least somebody should have been able to master saidin/saidar to some level and then it wouldn't be forgotten anymore.

[Luckers]

The fact is that we have seen a marked decrease in the number of channelers born over the last three thousand years from 3% to 1%.

 

The fact is that the 'forgetting' of the ability likely results in the disapearence of the ability amongst humans. At least in this turning.

[Phiotr AlManera]

Yeah, that's possible. However, to eridicate this potential from an entire population's gene pool is a serious and irreversible. How does it come back then?

 

Perhaps, but this is a bit far fetched, the creator denies the population the possibility of channelling in the same way the DO limits the use of the True Power but for different reasons then.

 

And is there an age where everybody has the ability to channel?

[Luckers]

I doubt it, and i doubt it. We have no evidence that the Creator has any influence over the propencity to channel, and given the recent decline, the 3% manifestation seems likely to be the highest.

[Beckon]

It's not so much the ability eradicated from the gene pool, but the usage of it is forgotten. Those born with it would be like a girl with the spark who never actually realizes she channeled and dies from the sickness that ensues. Or they'd be like Nynaeve if she'd never had Moiraine to tell her she can channel. Sometimes unexplained things happen and since channeling is forgotten, it's just unexplained. Then at some point someone tries to come up with the explanation and channeling is rediscovered.

[Luckers]

I disagree. If it is forgotten there is no reason for blocking the likes of which Nynaeve enacts. I think that the ability itself will fade away.

[Beckon]

The reason for blocking would be because as far as you know it's not possible. The stigma wouldn't be against channeling in particular but against anything supernatural so to speak. If you were Nynaeve today, and someone recovered when they were almost certain not to, how willing would you be to admit to yourself that it was something you did? I tend to think people in general would be less willing to admit it to themselves. At least in the 3rd age channeling is known to be possible, if not necessarily a desirable trait.

[Luckers]

The reason for blocking would be because as far as you know it's not possible. The stigma wouldn't be against channeling in particular but against anything supernatural so to speak. If you were Nynaeve today, and someone recovered when they were almost certain not to, how willing would you be to admit to yourself that it was something you did? I tend to think people in general would be less willing to admit it to themselves. At least in the 3rd age channeling is known to be possible, if not necessarily a desirable trait.

 

To be honest i would be very willing. And i think a large amount of other people would be too. This is not the Dark Ages were the fear of witchcraft is pre-eminent. But even in such times channelers would manifest in blatant ways, wether as priests thinking themselves delivered with devine powers, or just your average tyrant leaping on anything that grants advantage.

 

There are currently 6,000,000,000 people in the world. If even just 1% could channel thats 60,000,000, or 60 million. Say only 10 % of those were sparkers thats 6 million. 3/4 die thats 1.5 million. If even 95% of those block themselves from any true manifestation, thats still a number that would not remain unoticed... not with what channelers can achieve.

 

No, for the ability to disapear, it must actually disapear.

[Phiotr AlManera]

Let's say that if the spark still appears within the population, then a lot of people will die from it, most of them in fact. But within an entire age, 3000 years, it is very likely that at least some of them will gain full control of the power, or at least enough not to be killed by it.

These people would not be left unnoticed.

 

So, either the gene disappears completely, also in it's latent form or people with the gene cannot use the force.

[Leopoled Boothe]

It's not so much the ability eradicated from the gene pool' date=' but the usage of it is forgotten. Those born with it would be like a girl with the spark who never actually realizes she channeled and dies from the sickness that ensues. Or they'd be like Nynaeve if she'd never had Moiraine to tell her she can channel. Sometimes unexplained things happen and since channeling is forgotten, it's just unexplained. Then at some point someone tries to come up with the explanation and channeling is rediscovered.[/quote']

 

Good point, I mean who's to say channeling didn't exist in the 1st age, but because people did not understand the nature of the True Source it was called by different names such as witchcraft, miricals, shamanism, hypnotism (aka compulsion) telekinesis etc. I know it is questionable as to whether any of these things are actually real, but this is a work of fiction so we can just assume that in the WOT universe they were very real. Unfortunalty, the people of the first age were rather closed minded and therefore channeler often had to sequester themselves away in secret societes.

[Leopoled Boothe]

No' date=' for the ability to disapear, it must actually disapear.[/quote']

 

Not true, it could just be that much less than 1% of the population manifests the ability to channel in the 1st age. Remember there are an infinite number of fractions between 1% and 0%. Keep in mind also that the drop from 3% to 1% between the AoL and 3rd age is accompanied by a corresponding decline in the average stregnth among channelers. Thus, it could be that channelers in the 1st age a generally much weaker than those of the 3rd age and therefore cannot manifest their abilites as blantently or accomplish quite so much with the OP. Perhaps in the 1st age Morgase would be a virtual Nyneave.

[Leopoled Boothe]

How's this for a possible example of channeling being manifest in the first age?

 

Note: the following is a completely fictional account contrived my me. It is not intended in any way to reflect actually historcal events nor is it intended to represent the intent of Robert Jordan.

 

Late in the 1st age a young man in a land called Germany discovers in himself strange abilites which allow him to channel strands from the four elements, fire, water, earth and air and to weave these strands so as to accompish remarkable feats. However, this is a power hungery man and fearing that if these abilites are known that others will lean to use them and my one day rival his power, he decides to keep these powers secret. However, using these powers in subtle ways, particularly through a trick he likes to call compulsion, he quickly rises to become the absolute ruler of Germany. Doing some research into abilites like his own he discovers that just under 2000 year prior a very powerfull channeler, one who's abilites dwarfed his own, was was born among a race of people living in lands south of Germany known as the Middle East. Fearing that this race may once again produce such a powerfull channeler he decrees that all remaining members of this race must be eliminated from the face of the Earth. In his conquest he plunges the entire world into war, quickly subduing many of the surrounding kingdoms, even putting the great giant Mosk on the run (who's only defence is to strike his own lands with his lace of fire thus making them useless to the tyrant and his armies) and nearly taking the birth-lands of the queen Alsbet. Finally the great giant Merk takes exception to the actions of this tyrant and steps across the great ocean and stomps the tyrant flat thus ending his reign of terror.

 

So can anybody tell me the name of this evil 1st age channeler? :D