Verin and the oath rod (book spoilers)

[Samt]

The announcement about the Verin actress got me thinking about her and the way her story ends and also about the oath rod and the way it works.  

 

We see examples of how oaths taken on the oath rod are ultimately arbitrated by the person who took the oath.  For example, the Aes Sedai oath against lying is not the same as everything an Aes Sedai says being true.  The important thing is that the Aes Sedai believes that it is true.  And that is not even getting into the idea of Aes Sedai statements that are misleading but not technically lies.  As long as the sister believes that she is not lying, she is allowed to do it. 

 

The prohibition on using the one power as a weapon when not in mortal peril works in a similar way.  Sisters are allowed to use the one power to attack when they judge themselves or their warders to be in mortal peril.  There is no absolute arbiter of mortal peril contained within the oath rod.  It's just a question of how the oath taker understands the concept of mortal peril and when she judges that it exists.  

The black ajah oath is something to the effect that the sister taking the oath cannot betray the black ajah except in the hour of her death.  Verin gets around this by drinking poison and then betraying the black ajah within the hour or so that it takes for the poison to kill her.  Verin herself states that she wasn't even sure if it would work, but I think that the only reason it does work is because Verin thinks that it should.  She interpreted the oath to mean that she could betray the black ajah if she was sure that she would die within an hour.  And because she is the arbiter of her own oath, it works in the way that she interprets it.  Of course, there is an alternate poetic interpretation of the oath that betraying the black ajah would instantly kill the person who betrayed it, but that is clearly not the way that Verin interpreted it.  

 

Of course, the black ajah oath was likely written by an Aes Sedai.  And Aes Sedai are generally very careful about wordings and alternate interpretations.  So why did the oath writer word it in this obviously problematic way.  I have a theory that the person who wrote the black ajah oath was under duress or didn't think she had a way out.  But she wrote the flaw into the oath in the hope that it would eventually be the undoing of the black ajah.  

Also, I wonder if Verin could have betrayed the black ajah and survived.  There seem to be a couple ways this might be possible.  First, if Verin could devise a way in which she could trick herself into believing that she was about to die but not actually be about to die, that should probably be enough for her to be able to betray the black ajah.  Remember that there appears to be no absolute arbiter of truth contained within the oath rod.  It just makes the oath taker keep her oath according to her own interpretation of the oath and her own understanding of reality.  So Verin should be able to betray the black ajah so long as she believes she is about to die.  Whether or not she is about to die is not important.  

Second, an even more dubious way that she might be able to survive is to simply change her mind.  For instance, she could decide that she is going to take a fast acting poison 1 hour from now. Then she could betray the black ajah and subsequently could change her mind about the suicide.  Once again, this hinges simply on her ability to convince herself of something and then change her mind.  

I actually think that Verin probably considered some of these possibilities but decided against them for a couple reasons.  First, she didn't want to risk it not working.  Betraying the black ajah was far more important to her than whether she lived or died.  And second, I don't think that Verin actually wanted to live through it.  Any surviving black ajah members would certainly be out for revenge and the oppressively strict nature of the white tower law would likely not be any more merciful towards her since she actually was a member of the black ajah.  Further, Verin probably had to do many foul things in order to maintain her cover in the black ajah, so perhaps she was ready for it to be over.  

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

I appreciate your post and the points you made. I think the oath writers clearly left loopholes in the way the oaths are worded, and I have to suspect this was no accident. Speaking no word that is not true is not the same as total transparency. And as you mentioned there is also the exception of being able to lie if the person believes it to be true. I also have always been confused about the oath forbidding use of the power as a weapon and I think it again comes down to the individual interpretation. For example, if I took an oath not to use the power as a weapon, then for me that would include not using it to cause pain or harm in any way. Yet clearly the power is used to inflict pain and force against people all the time. The interpretation of what a weapon is, and the obvious fact that the aes sedai defines weapon differently must be what allows them to beat, bind, or otherwise cause pain or trauma without breaking this oath. The basic method of punishment in the tower is using the power to whip or spank or beat or whatever. Not everyone who participated in kidnapping Rand was a Darkfriend yet look how he was treated. They must interpret a weapon as something that is used with the intent to kill, and aside from that it’s pretty flexible. I agree with your assessment that the oath is in the eye of the beholder, and the oath rod itself is merely a way to bind people to their own views of what the oaths mean. 

[DojoToad]

I didn't think this was a black ajah oath but rather Verin's individual oath.  She created the loophole herself.

[wotfan4472]

4 hours ago, DojoToad said:

I didn't think this was a black ajah oath but rather Verin's individual oath.  She created the loophole herself.

Verin herself did not create the loophole. The Oaths are specific, just as the original Three Oaths were.

 

She just became the first official Black Ajah member in 2000 years to exploit it, because she was the only member in that time not to be faithful to her Oaths when it became clear that her position was untenable.

 

There were at two Black Ajah POV's in the books that were intending to kill Verin the next time they saw her. Fortunately for the world, neither one of them were in the Tower at any point Egwene began her siege, or with the Salidar Aes Sedai at any moment.

[DojoToad]

Ah!  Thank you.  I read that wrong.

[Samt]

9 hours ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

I appreciate your post and the points you made. I think the oath writers clearly left loopholes in the way the oaths are worded, and I have to suspect this was no accident. Speaking no word that is not true is not the same as total transparency. And as you mentioned there is also the exception of being able to lie if the person believes it to be true. I also have always been confused about the oath forbidding use of the power as a weapon and I think it again comes down to the individual interpretation. For example, if I took an oath not to use the power as a weapon, then for me that would include not using it to cause pain or harm in any way. Yet clearly the power is used to inflict pain and force against people all the time. The interpretation of what a weapon is, and the obvious fact that the aes sedai defines weapon differently must be what allows them to beat, bind, or otherwise cause pain or trauma without breaking this oath. The basic method of punishment in the tower is using the power to whip or spank or beat or whatever. Not everyone who participated in kidnapping Rand was a Darkfriend yet look how he was treated. They must interpret a weapon as something that is used with the intent to kill, and aside from that it’s pretty flexible. I agree with your assessment that the oath is in the eye of the beholder, and the oath rod itself is merely a way to bind people to their own views of what the oaths mean. 

Interesting point about the definition of a weapon.  I looked up the exact text of the 3 oaths since I was just going off a vague memory which obviously is insufficient when wondering about the technicalities of the wording.  

 

1. To speak no word that is not true

2. To make no weapon with which one man may kill another

3. Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Darkfriends or Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme defense of her life, the life of her Warder, or another Aes Sedai

 

The second one always struck me as a bit odd since it seems to imply that this would come up a lot more than it did.  It probably is referring to power forged weapons, but it's not as if the power forged weapons we see in the books are some type of nuclear super weapon.  It's just a sword or hammer that's a little bit better and requires less maintenance. (also it can kill dark hounds, but I think that might just be mjonir and that's just killing shadowspan anyways).  It seems likely that there were weapons in the age of legends made with the power that were much more destructive.

 

Also, on the subject of technicalities, an Aes Sedai could probably make a power forged weapon if she could somehow lock it so that only women could use it.  

On the subject of white tower corporal punishment, I seem to remember most of it being done the old fashioned way with slippers and belts.  But definitely Elaida and others did use the power at times.  I think another distinction about whether or not it is being used as a weapon could be around the intended effect.  Using it to cause pain, disability, or unconsciousness (or other non-lethal effects) in order to win a fight with an enemy would probably be considered using it as a weapon.  But using it as a form of punishment on a student might not be a weapon simply because the intention is teaching and not conflict.  

[Sabio]

Verin said she doubted the BA thought is as a loophole since few BA would be willing to sacrifice themselves just to betray the BA.  Even if a BA was about to be executed it's unlikely, they would betray the BA because it would still mean they would be executed.

[JyP]

On 5/19/2023 at 3:48 AM, Sabio said:

Verin said she doubted the BA thought is as a loophole since few BA would be willing to sacrifice themselves just to betray the BA.  Even if a BA was about to be executed it's unlikely, they would betray the BA because it would still mean they would be executed.

And there may have been a time when "except in the hour of her death" would have a different meaning - "whenever I am dying, so it emphasises that my oath to the Dark One is until death, which is not done for White Tower oaths" while Verin persuaded herself instead there was a literal meaning "okay, I got 60 minutes".

[JyP]

17 hours ago, JyP said:

And there may have been a time when "except in the hour of her death" would have a different meaning - "whenever I am dying, so it emphasises that my oath to the Dark One is until death, which is not done for White Tower oaths" while Verin persuaded herself instead there was a literal meaning "okay, I got 60 minutes".

Now that I think more about it, this is very cleverly done and on track with what we know :

 

- during the Age of Legends, Oath Rods were used for convicts - and there were surely a knowledge that they diminished life a bit. So I guess oaths were removed after a bit of time served : you have no time sensitive conditions in the oaths, and Age of Legend seems quite averse to death penalty - or life shortening.

- after the Breaking, you have a massive power balance : channelers are no longer seen as rulers, Aes Sedai have to take the 3 oaths for political reasons. But these 3 oaths take previous oaths for convicts as a model : there's still no time condition in them. Politically speaking, White Tower Aes Sedai may have wished to wait for an opportunity to remove oaths once times are less challenging. And note these Aes Sedai devising the 3 oaths are not modern Aes Sedai, trained to transparently lying even though they swore an oath to not spoke a word that is not true. I also guess the swearing on the Oath Rod was something which was very public at the time, as distrust against Aes Sedai was high.

- at the same time, the Black Ajah devises a countermeasure with its own oaths : here we have the  "except in the hour of her death" bit added, because Darkfriends are afraid of turncoats - time condition must be here, while not having Aes Sedai swearing the black oaths by trickery having the workaround of suicide : "the hour of her death" may mean "hour of (natural) death".

Edited May 24, 2023 by JyP

[Nasuadax]

i have a big remark on the OP's point of suggesting that verin might decide to use a fast working potion and only take it after betraying and then not doing it.

 

Since she is the arbiter of the oath herself. This would not work unless she is herself convinced that it really is her last hour. Meaning that she would need a firm believe of there being no other option but to take the poison after that one hour. Or believe that there is no way on earth that she changes her mind on this topic.

Having the slightest doubt about it really being her last hour would (i guess) block her from betraying the BA. the oaths are (as you remarked) about what you believe yourself. But as made clear in the books, wanting to believe something and actually believing something are 2 widely different things

[Scarloc99]

The Black Ajah was founded by a forsaken, therefore a Forsaken no doubt structured the oaths. As Verin said no one on the dark side (Darklord, Forsaken, Black Ajah etc), ever imagined someone would infiltrate them, do despicable things to root out the organisation and then commit suicide to report it all back. 
 

Remember no aes sedai truly understands what the oath rod was used for in the time of legends. It was the ultimate punishment for an aes sedai with sentence only passed for the worst of crimes. It was a death sentence and so many who where subject to that sentence where bound not for life but for a set period of time, allowing them to rehabilitate.