Past Ages: A very basic, yet improtant question

[Elvatuar]

I’ve just started with book 3, so please avoid spoilers. The thing I don’t understand is: the Wheel keeps turning and Ages repeat themselves over and over. I assume each Age the Dragon Reborn fights the Dark One, right? Does the DR defeat the Dark One each time or vice versa? And why is the current Age special? I keep reading that if Rand fails defeating the Dark One, the Dark One will have won for good and all eternity will be cast in darkness. Is that so? Why?

Also, Rand is the reincarnation of Lews Therin. But in Book 2 when crossing through the portal stone to Falme, Rand learnt that he has lived thousands of lives. Or did he not live those lives and these were mere infinite possible ways his life could have gone? If Rand has lived again and again, then how is he also the reincarnation of Lews Therin?

[wotfan4472]

You will learn more as the books reveal them. By the end of the books, you will know some of the things that point to what the Wheel does.

[WheelofJuke]

WAFO...wait and find out. 🍿 🙂

 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

19 hours ago, Elvatuar said:

I’ve just started with book 3, so please avoid spoilers. The thing I don’t understand is: the Wheel keeps turning and Ages repeat themselves over and over. I assume each Age the Dragon Reborn fights the Dark One, right?

Not once each age - once each complete turning of the wheel (generally depicted as seven ages in total).  In the "age of legends" equivalent of each turn there is a catastrophic collapse (in this turning due to the DO escaping) and in the "third age" equivalent a slow decay ending in a major confrontation (the "last battle").

It is easier to think of the portal flickers as alternative ways this turning could have gone (or ways it went in some of the alternative worlds) rather than representing prior turnings.

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

20 hours ago, Elvatuar said:

I’ve just started with book 3, so please avoid spoilers. The thing I don’t understand is: the Wheel keeps turning and Ages repeat themselves over and over. I assume each Age the Dragon Reborn fights the Dark One, right? Does the DR defeat the Dark One each time or vice versa? And why is the current Age special? I keep reading that if Rand fails defeating the Dark One, the Dark One will have won for good and all eternity will be cast in darkness. Is that so? Why?

Also, Rand is the reincarnation of Lews Therin. But in Book 2 when crossing through the portal stone to Falme, Rand learnt that he has lived thousands of lives. Or did he not live those lives and these were mere infinite possible ways his life could have gone? If Rand has lived again and again, then how is he also the reincarnation of Lews Therin?

I’ve had (and in many cases still have) the same questions! Can’t say much in terms of what the answers are, but I can thoroughly relate with your post. 

[Elvatuar]

4 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Not once each age - once each complete turning of the wheel (generally depicted as seven ages in total).  In the "age of legends" equivalent of each turn there is a catastrophic collapse (in this turning due to the DO escaping) and in the "third age" equivalent a slow decay ending in a major confrontation (the "last battle").

It is easier to think of the portal flickers as alternative ways this turning could have gone (or ways it went in some of the alternative worlds) rather than representing prior turnings.

Oh right, yes, Age does not equal Turn of the Wheel. Thanks.

[Elvatuar]

3 hours ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

I’ve had (and in many cases still have) the same questions! Can’t say much in terms of what the answers are, but I can thoroughly relate with your post. 

Do you mean you still had these questions after having read all 14 bokks?
I do wonder if and, if so, why the current Turning of the Wheel is different than the others.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

If you like this kind of thing you may enjoy KJ Parker's scavenger trilogy - as long as you have a strong stomach.

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

20 hours ago, Elvatuar said:

Do you mean you still had these questions after having read all 14 bokks?
I do wonder if and, if so, why the current Turning of the Wheel is different than the others.

I still do have many questions after 14 books, which has prompted me to reread them. On the other hand many questions are answered on completion of the series. I will agree with you that one thing for me that still lingers is the idea of why this turning of the wheel “seems” so fatalistically important compared to all others. All I can come up with is that… maybe it isn’t…? 

[DojoToad]

6 hours ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

I still do have many questions after 14 books, which has prompted me to reread them. On the other hand many questions are answered on completion of the series. I will agree with you that one thing for me that still lingers is the idea of why this turning of the wheel “seems” so fatalistically important compared to all others. All I can come up with is that… maybe it isn’t…? 

It's important because it is the 'current' one.  I never thought beyond that.  Everything is important when it is happening to you...

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

16 hours ago, DojoToad said:

It's important because it is the 'current' one.  I never thought beyond that.  Everything is important when it is happening to you...

Absolutely, a well stated point to illustrate the definition of what is commonly considered important and why. I would add a thought coming from my own personal perspective. It is my belief that finding something important simply because it’s happening to you is understandable and the basis for most people’s current experience, but IMHO it is a limited view and eventually (hopefully) that mindset will give way and evolve into finding importance or unimportance equally appreciated regardless of whether it’s happening to you or not 

[Aan-Alone]

On 4/20/2023 at 8:59 AM, DojoToad said:

It's important because it is the 'current' one.  I never thought beyond that.  Everything is important when it is happening to you...

Aside from this, I don't recall any other reason presented as to why "This Turning" is more significant. 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

I always had the impression that the Shadow could have two levels of victory. One within the constraints of the pattern where Rand is killed or turned, and one where the Dark One breaks the Wheel. This is only ever really hinted at as we don't see alot from the perspective of the Shadow. 

 

Though one reason to emphasis why this Age and Turning is important is to establish that just because it is the Wheel turning that does not mean that the Light has to win. Even if it created a paradox (how could the Dark One break free if he was not imprisoned) he could still do so. Though of course that also applies to every Turning and every Age, though that makes it no less important. 

[Aan-Alone]

22 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

the Shadow could have two levels of victory. One within the constraints of the pattern where Rand is killed or turned, and one where the Dark One breaks the Wheel.

 

Hmm...[the official sound of speculation about to happen].

Spoiler

Perhaps it's because the Dark One was free for a time in the last age and not perfectly sealed away. Sealed away enough to not 'touch' the world but still connected to the pattern in some fashion for a prolonged period, due to the imperfect sealing. And this prolonged connection provided the Dark One with necessary information to unmake creation if freed again in this age?  This is assuming the Pattern isn't a static thing. And that the Dark One would need to gain it's bearings before starting on any Pattern-destroying antics. I would think these are safe assumptions. And would somewhat account for the "bubbles of evil", moving rooms, Hinderstrap, and Ishmael's various appearances throughout Randland over 3000 years.

 

I wish we had more info...

Does LTT ever chime in about the "bubbles"? I don't recall LTT or any of the Forsaken commenting on that stuff. Slim chance they would anyway I guess.

 

Edited January 25 by Aan-Alone
Spoiler cover

[Asthereal]

7 hours ago, Aan-Alone said:

 

Hmm...[the official sound of speculation about to happen].

 

Perhaps it's because the Dark One was free for a time in the last age and not perfectly sealed away. Sealed away enough to not 'touch' the world but still connected to the pattern in some fashion for a prolonged period, due to the imperfect sealing. And this prolonged connection provided the Dark One with necessary information to unmake creation if freed again in this age?  This is assuming the Pattern isn't a static thing. And that the Dark One would need to gain it's bearings before starting on any Pattern-destroying antics. I would think these are safe assumptions. And would somewhat account for the "bubbles of evil", moving rooms, Hinderstrap, and Ishmael's various appearances throughout Randland over 3000 years.

 

I wish we had more info...

Does LTT ever chime in about the "bubbles"? I don't recall LTT or any of the Forsaken commenting on that stuff. Slim chance they would anyway I guess.

 

Please note that you're about to speculate in a topic started by someone who at that time was only at book 3. 😉 

[Aan-Alone]

12 hours ago, Asthereal said:

 

Please note that you're about to speculate in a topic started by someone who at that time was only at book 3. 😉 

Thanks for the reminder.

[Bugglesley]

On 1/24/2024 at 11:07 AM, Aan-Alone said:

Aside from this, I don't recall any other reason presented as to why "This Turning" is more significant. 

It's implicit; it's the one with our Good Boys Rand, Mat and Perrin in it! (Bela is obviously in every turning of the wheel, but she's in it too.)

 

We really, truly don't need any reason other than that. You might have kept your elementary school yearbook from 5th grade; why is that year so important? Why don't you have all the yearbooks from all the years your school was in operation...? It doesn't have to be unique or climactic or the only time something is happening for it to be a good story imo. It just has to be a good story.

 

And from there, going too much more into any of it is RAFO as the original responders responded lo these many months gone.

[Aan-Alone]

I'm picking up what you're putting down @Bugglesley.

 

I need more tho. Something deeper.