A Memory of Light - Possible Senario Part 1 - SPOILERs!!

[wvlr]

WARNING do not read this if possible theories based on the books and pure conjecture will spoil it for you!

 

 

 

 

 

 

OK. Sure these are just my Guesses but remember - You were warned!

 

 

Luckers - this is not to undermine your EXELLENT work. Sorry if mine is not as eloquent and well laid out as yours. Just don't have time. This is only part one - I have maybe 2 more.

 

 

 

Matt & Finnland must occur early in the Prologue because so much hinges on these issues for the rest of the book. In my view RJ should have put this part in the last book but did not because he, understandably, liked the Marriage & “Highness Matt” ending.

 

 

 

Relevant facts as we have been presented in the books:

 

Per Min we know that Caddy is important to Rand winning TG.

Per Min we know that Moiraine is needed for Rand to win TG.

Per Caddy (her opinion not viewing or Prophecy) she feels that it is necessary to make him laugh and cry – to make him less brittle and more human.

 

Even though it is just a Caddy opinion, I think she is correct in this. Rand is getting harder and harder in every POV. He looses a hand and hardly even pauses. I think that he is already too hard to win TG. He is abusive to almost everyone, except for a very select few. Some people tolerate him because he is the DR, others because they knew him before and yet others because they near worship him. But there are a lot more that are important to his success that he repeatedly rubs them the wrong way for no reason.

The fact is that he is alienating people by this abusive attitude when he needs to instead of shoving them into line, he should explain a little and sometimes use persuasion. That would create a more cohesive force.

Specifically, I think he is strung so tight that he is near snapping from the stress. Caddy knows what he needs but she is not really helping despite a sincere attempt to try. The way she is trying to help, she is inadvertently adding the last straw.

 

Caddy knew Moiraine when she was young we saw that is in NS.

 

We know Lanfear came back from Finnland less powerful and in a different body.

We know Moiraine did not come back.

We know that Moiraine knew before hand that she would be going through the doorway with Lanfear and that she could not comeback without help, and she knew the circumstances of the entry into Finnland (They both would be channeling/holding the Power and it destroyed the doorway)..

We know that the Finn’s give you 3 (items / wishes in trade) but they always try to trick you. They also have provisions AGAINST Iron, Music and Fire. (I always thought these were the clues to getting her out, but now I think that they might be just decoys)

 

 

OK! Now comes my guesses/connect the dots.

 

 

What happened when Lanfear/Moraine entered Finnland? They were both burned out. Lanfear went first and got first choice of three wishes. Moraine was second but knew ahead of time and was prepared. But essentially they entered together so they are kept together.

 

Lanfear (items / wishes in trade): If she got anything at all - She may have been denied anything because of the manner of her entry and her affiliation. But IF (BIG IF) she did get items / like Matt she could have made bad choices. Or her loss of Power Level and life could easily have been punishment.

 

1. To be healed – but she neglected to say fully OR by a man – so in the Finn way – she gets what she asks for, but considerably less than what she wanted – she looses her high power level.

 

2. She is mad at Moiraine, so she asks that Moiraine must stay – but she neglects to say how long – providing a loophole/Finn out.

 

3. Lanfear then asks to leave……….But like Matt she forgot to say ALIVE!........so the DO has to give her another body.

 

 

Moiraine knew she was going to Finnland long before & the events surrounding it, so she had time to prepare. She also knew she could not leave immediately so why waste a request. Her requests are anyone’s guess, but I choose for now:

 

(This is assuming that she gets anything - due to the nature of her entry into Finnland).

 

1. To be Healed Stronger or Equal to what Lanfear ever was. (This may be two items – not sure)

2. The Traveling Weave (Tactically she knows that this is vital in the upcoming battles because the other side has it and she does not know that Egwene has discovered it. T(his may be sort of a wasted item.)

3. If #1 only takes one request, then she thinks of something else equally important – that I am too stupid to think of.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now these things will be in the MoL Prologue:

 

 

Matt, Noel and Thom enter Finnland. They enter together like Lanfear & Moiraine so the can stay together. Otherwise it will not be much different than what we saw before.

 

Matt was there before so he gets NO REQUESTS. He is just there for his Experience and for Sacrifice – the Finns must have their due – their pound of flesh++.

 

They are mainly there for Moiraine so those are the most important wishes, but between the three (2 actually) there are some extra requests/items.

 

The three men plan this before entering, but the Finns don’t loose completely.

 

First Noel:

 

1. To be free of his unwanted burden/s (Forsaken).

2. HIS memories back (correct me if I am wrong but didn’t he loose memories also?)

3. That they ALL be free from Finn Monitors/Rrecorders. - So the Finn’s (sneaky bastards) take Mats eye – (Pound of flesh type thing) & collect all Mats memories since first visit. The Finns are not going away without getting something!

 

Thom requests/items:

 

1. I want Moiraine alive and be with our group.

2. I want a way to punish nephew’s killers. (This will get him either a “Truth rod” that forces them to admit being BA, OR he learns that he can channel and as an AM he is on equal footing to seek justice)

3. He requests that all FOUR of them to be set free at Tower G and alive.

 

Alternate number 2. He wants “The SONG” HEY! He is the Bard after all!!!!

 

 

After departing Finnland-

 

Moiriene wants to go directly to Rand but Matt needs to go to Caemlyn. Matt has a “Colors” view and sees enough to tell Moiraine where to go. She opens a gate and sends Matt & Noel directly to Caemlyn and she and Thom go to Rand.

 

Thom reports to Rand about the weapons (Cross bow cranks &“Dragons”) that Matt has discovered and is having made in Caemlyn. Maybe asks for funding? He does not mention the DoNM or Moiraine. He just mentions that he has a friend (maybe) and typical AS she keeps her face hidden and stays in the background – watching. Besides she looks younger now so anyone who sees her does not recognise her. Lann is not there to give here away.

 

So they “attach” themselves once again to Rand’s Group and stay in the background to get a grip on things/changes.

 

Somewhere around here (soon) Rand has one of his Tyrannical Fits and Caddy slams him down in her usual annoying way – he starts to blow. Moiriene steps forward before he does and in the typical AS fashion (I outrank you – you will do as I say!) and smacks Caddy down. Caddy not one to back down easily will turn on Moiraine and in shock recognize her and say “MOIRAINE!”.

 

The Shock of Moiraine’s return, someone standing up to Caddy in his defense will Crack Rand's Shell in a good way. He will laugh, probably so hard he cries and his “List” will be gone. Min will tell him that Caddy’s job is done.

 

After that she will probably fade away to mainly “Semi” duty. But if she stays around Moiraine will keep her in line.

 

I think Caddy will die later fighting Semi.

 

Moiraine will fight Lanfear either before or during TG. Moiraine will live and marry/bond Thom.

 

 

 

 

 

Back to MATT

 

 

Noel becomes Matt’s sidekick/whatever. In Caemlyn Matt gathers up his gang. He contacts Elayne or gets funding from Rand and starts Bell Founders and such making “Dragons”, Cranks & Egg factories.

 

They run into problems very quickly though. Bells are cast with very thin walls. The founders make the “Dragons” the same way, but thin walls are not strong enough and they break. Cannons must be cast completely differently – with thick walls. This turns out to be very difficult for them. It is a whole new procedure requiring entirely different ore mix and cooling times. It would take months or years to perfect the things and they already made hundreds of the (too thin) ones. Then along comes one of Egwene’s AS and they turn some of the thin defective ones to Cuendillar – Problem solved. It also makes them lighter and more mobile.

 

 

Noel is the only one, besides Matt, who has had a really good look at the Gholum. He will stick with Matt and probably be the one who dies warning Matt of the next Gholum attack. Matt will fight the thing until an AS or AM can find a way to kill it. Probably with a “Death Gate” or a new spell “Storm of Silver”.

 

Edited to correct a few of the most obvious mistakes.

 

Hope you enjoy!

 

 

 

 

 

Edited to remove the unimportant term "wishes" and substitute requests/items, so as not to incorrectly imply a "Magical" aspect to the Finns.

[Tommar]

Aside from a few plot mistakes you made it is a well thought out and imaginitive idea. That being said I completely disagree! :)

 

Well done though

[Beckon]

Very well thought out, though I don't think it's safe to assume Moiraine and Lanfear were allowed bargains given the manner of their arrival. We also don't know if those entering through the Tower of Ghenji are allowed wishes. They may have been, but there's also reason to suspect the 'finns were less than amused since they feed off humans in some sense.

[Luckers]

I rather doubt that the Finns gave Lanfear or Moiraine wishes. The fact is, these arn't magical beings bound to granting wishes. They are a race that has a treaty with humanity, yet the method of Moiraine and Lanfears arrival defy that treaty.They destroyed a connection the Finns obviously valued, and in doing so caused an extremely vicious fire, one which they had no rand around to suppress, and note the way the fire refuses to go out and all Rand can do is contain it.

 

Then we have the fact that Lanfear is of the shadow. We have seen the Finns actively disdain, or punish things that relate to the shadow. Moreover, whilst they seemingly stand aside from this war, we have seen them display an attention to their own interests in the past. If the shadow is victorious, they suffer. Besides, we know they 'held' lanfear, indicating their disaproval. You dont offer a service to a prisoner.

 

No, i dont see them having granted Lanfear's wishes, or Moiraines... i mean imagine if someone burst out of a plane into an airport, caused a massive fire producing some sort of terrible thing... radiation (i.e. light for the finns). Now imagine that this man was osama bin laden, and he asked for asylum... yes, we grant asylum as part of of treatise with other countries, but not after that...

[wvlr]

I rather doubt that the Finns gave Lanfear or Moiraine wishes. The fact is' date=' these arn't magical beings bound to granting wishes. They are a race that has a treaty with humanity, yet the method of Moiraine and Lanfears arrival defy that treaty.They destroyed a connection the Finns obviously valued, and in doing so caused an extremely vicious fire, one which they had no rand around to suppress, and note the way the fire refuses to go out and all Rand can do is contain it.

 

Then we have the fact that Lanfear is of the shadow. We have seen the Finns actively disdain, or punish things that relate to the shadow. Moreover, whilst they seemingly stand aside from this war, we have seen them display an attention to their own interests in the past. If the shadow is victorious, they suffer. Besides, we know they 'held' lanfear, indicating their disaproval. You dont offer a service to a prisoner.

 

No, i dont see them having granted Lanfear's wishes, or Moiraines... i mean imagine if someone burst out of a plane into an airport, caused a massive fire producing some sort of terrible thing... radiation (i.e. light for the finns). Now imagine that this man was osama bin laden, and he asked for asylum... yes, we grant asylum as part of of treatise with other countries, but not after that...[/quote']

 

Thanks Luckers for refreshing my memory on some things.

 

The Lanfear/Moiraine part of it was not essential to the rest (with minor adjustments).

 

I do have to take issue with some of your catagorical statements though.

 

"They are a race that has a treaty with humanity, yet the method of Moiraine and Lanfears arrival defy that treaty."

 

1. I agree on the treaty, but unlike you, I never got the opportunity to read the actual treaty. :D As far as I know, the only things mentioned in the treaty are "No fire, No Music, No Iron then the requirements are met. They never mentioned - "As long as you don't break our doorway".

 

2. From what we have seen, the Doorways were created by AS, so you could just as easily think that these creatures want to stay on good terms with AS so that they could get their doorway reactivated/replaced.

 

3. We have only heard that you can not ask Questions about the Shadow. No statement was ever made, that I know of, that they do not extend the same rights to servents of the DO. (If that was a given though, it would be a great way to test for darkfriends. Send them in and if they make it back out then they must be OK. Kind of like a Gateway on Shadowspawn.) Remember from the Hobb Hill scenerio - the Finn were thought to be associated with the DO. In actuality, I think that they are completely independent of Light/Shadow.

 

4. We know the doorway burned on this side. There is no reason to assume that the doorway burned on the other side. That would be like you were talking on a phone from Austrailia to me in the US and your phone shorts out and burns. So you assume mine did as well. OR You are watching your TV and it shorts out and burns, so you assume that the TV station must have burned up as well.

 

It is not a certianty. It could be true or it might not be.

 

If Lanfear & Moiraine were burned out on entering this end, then by the time they reach the other end they are no longer holding the One Power, so it could well have not set off the burning effect.

 

 

 

Then quote:

"Besides, we know they 'held' lanfear, indicating their disaproval. You dont offer a service to a prisoner."

 

"Held" is a very ambiguous term and while it may indeed mean prisoner, it may also simply mean that she was not released/returned to the "real world" as quickly as she wanted.

After all, it may take longer to get her out a different exit or for them to realize that the doorway on their side was not working.

 

We could change she third wish to read like this:

 

Lanfear asks to leave.....but like Mat she forgot to say ALIVE or IMMEDIATELY. Hence the Finn keep her much longer than she wanted (possibly to extract more of what they get from people) and she is killed when they put her out, like they did Matt.

 

 

 

PS. I was doing this by memory and did forget that bit about (we know they 'held' Lanfear). Thanks for reminding me - it took a bit to work that in.

 

 

Anyway, thanks for reading it. :D

[Beckon]

It's not fire they don't like it's instruments for making light. The Snakes and Foxes intro is fire to blind, but the 'finns themselves ask if you've brought means for making light. I forget how it's actually worded. Some argue that the burning doorway = means for making light and thereby broke the agreement.

[wvlr]

It's not fire they don't like it's instruments for making light. The Snakes and Foxes intro is fire to blind' date=' but the 'finns themselves ask if you've brought means for making light. I forget how it's actually worded. Some argue that the burning doorway = means for making light and thereby broke the agreement.[/quote']

 

For a minute there I thought you were going to quote the whole whole exact intro for me. I have been looking but have not found the correct pages yet.

 

Yea, I understand the possible Doorway fire/light thing but we only KNOW what happened on our side. The same thing may have happened on the other side or it may not. We just don't know.

 

And we do not actually know what their reaction would be. They would not be happy - for sure - but do they have any flexability to do anything about it? After all, they are dependent on AS to fix it, so do they want to piss off the last two AS that came through?

 

There are just too many things that could go either way - depending on what RJ WANTS to do.

[Beckon]

I'm not saying I disagree so much as just observing that I think it's a rather big "if". :D

[wvlr]

I'm not saying I disagree so much as just observing that I think it's a rather big "if". :D

 

 

MOST DEFFINITELY! Of course any speculation we make is a big “if” at this point. Once RJ finishes all – well most – the “ifs” disappear.

 

But for lack of the next book (MoL) to read, it is fun trying to figure out, within the parameters that RJ provided, how he might try to throw us a curve. That is why I did the 3 wishes version versus the Fire/Music/Iron. I was just thinking that he might try to throw us a curve. Fire/Music/Iron is mentioned so much that for most, something different would catch them by surprise.

 

If he does the 3 wishes version, I am sure that his version will be much better thought out and fit together than what I did, but I am just trying to open the door to that possibility.

[Beckon]

RJ does like to use reverse psychology on us quite a bit.

 

On the other hand Moiraine advised Thom in her letter to him to remember everything he knows about the Snakes and Foxes game, so it seems likely that it will actually come into play somehow.

[Luckers]

The fact of the matter is that these beings are not fantastical creatures. If pissed off, they react--and aside from the fact that they were written by RJ, and therefore are pretty much assured to be not on dimensional, we have seen this in effect, between the human leather, the punishment for silly questions, the punishment for shadow-based questions...

 

1. I agree on the treaty, but unlike you, I never got the opportunity to read the actual treaty. As far as I know, the only things mentioned in the treaty are "No fire, No Music, No Iron then the requirements are met. They never mentioned - "As long as you don't break our doorway".

1. I agree on the treaty, but unlike you, I never got the opportunity to read the actual treaty. As far as I know, the only things mentioned in the treaty are "No fire, No Music, No Iron then the requirements are met. They never mentioned - "As long as you don't break our doorway".

 

Well... a) so what? I mean, really. Would you give three gifts to someone who broke your door coming in? Much less the door through which you gained something you deeply valued... b) The fire of the door created light. Light is forbidden.

 

2. From what we have seen, the Doorways were created by AS, so you could just as easily think that these creatures want to stay on good terms with AS so that they could get their doorway reactivated/replaced.

 

I'm sorry, but there is no evidence for this. We have no idea the situation that led to the treaty, and moreover the nature of the treaty implies two-way equality.

 

3. We have only heard that you can not ask Questions about the Shadow. No statement was ever made, that I know of, that they do not extend the same rights to servents of the DO. (If that was a given though, it would be a great way to test for darkfriends. Send them in and if they make it back out then they must be OK. Kind of like a Gateway on Shadowspawn.) Remember from the Hobb Hill scenerio - the Finn were thought to be associated with the DO. In actuality, I think that they are completely independent of Light/Shadow.

 

Which was why i added the rest of that sentence. We have actively seen them display a distaste for the shadow. We have seen them display a appreciation for self-interest and pleasure. The Dark One's victory results in death for them.

 

They may stay out of the war, but we have enough evidence to sustain the argument that they dont support, or condone the shadow.

 

4. We know the doorway burned on this side. There is no reason to assume that the doorway burned on the other side. That would be like you were talking on a phone from Austrailia to me in the US and your phone shorts out and burns. So you assume mine did as well. OR You are watching your TV and it shorts out and burns, so you assume that the TV station must have burned up as well.

 

Actually it would be like a doorway burning on both sides. It was the destruction of the ter'angreal that caused the fire, not Moiraine or Lanfears specific weaves.

 

But frankly, irrespective of the books themselves, i simply do not see this occuring... why on earth would the finns grant those two wishes? They've skinned people for less. As i said, people seem to think the finns some sort of magical creature, bound by their nature to answer questions or grant wishes... they arnt. They are a people making use of a talent in trade for something they want from another people by way of a specific, and recent 'relatively speaking' trade agreement.

[wvlr]

RJ does like to use reverse psychology on us quite a bit.

 

On the other hand Moiraine advised Thom in her letter to him to remember everything he knows about the Snakes and Foxes game' date=' so it seems likely that it will actually come into play somehow.[/quote']

 

The thing is that I just do not see any requirement for the Finns to be happy about Moiraine/Lanfear or the Doorway or anything. These are not nice creatures ANYWAY. They ALWAYS try to trick you. They skin people, they kill people, they put monitors in your eye without asking and they always try their damndest to short change you on the wishes that they do give you.

 

Will going in there with Fire/Music and Iron make them MORE happy? I don’t think so.

 

 

I don't LIKE paying my TAXs, but my association with the government does not require me to like it.

 

What matters is how the agreement was written, which we do not actually know. So we can suppose either way.

[wvlr]

Well... a) so what? I mean' date=' really. Would you give three gifts to someone who broke your door coming in? Much less the door through which you gained something you deeply valued... b) The fire of the door created light. Light is forbidden.[/quote']

 

Example: The city police come to my house and break down my door looking for a criminal or whatever. Do I still have to pay city taxes - Yes! It is a requirement of my FORCED contract with my city. There is nothing that says that if they mistakenly break down my door looking for someone else - that I don't have to pay my taxes. there is nothing that says that I have to be happy about it. What I like in that situation is completely irrevelent as it is with the Finns.

 

1. We don't know that there was ANY fire ot Light on their side.

2. We don't know that they are even aware immediately that their side no longer functions. It could still appear "Normal" to them.

3. We don't know that they have any flexability to take revenge.

4. We don't know that they have any flexability to DENY wishes.

 

Why do you keep siteing things that are completely open and undefined, as concrete facts? I freely admit - it could go either way. For the sake of this senario that I am proposing - we need to take the view that they have no choice in the matter.

 

 

Also,

For all we know, they might very well have a stockpile of "doors" and they will just toss it out out at Tower G.

 

When Matt was there before (correct me if I am wrong here) I thought he passed hundreds of "Doorways" so they have other avenues to aquire what they get from people.

 

 

 

The Dark One's victory results in death for them.

 

Actually it would be like a doorway burning on both sides. It was the destruction of the ter'angreal that caused the fire, not Moiraine or Lanfears specific weaves.

 

 

 

I have seen nothing to back these up. If they are stated in the books, please let me know. It sounds like just opinion to me. My view of them is that they exist in another demension and may have hundreds or even thousands of different worlds to draw on.

 

 

 

 

As i said, people seem to think the finns some sort of magical creature, bound by their nature to answer questions or grant wishes... they arnt. They are a people making use of a talent in trade for something they want from another people by way of a specific, and recent 'relatively speaking' trade agreement.

 

I never did this. I have always addressed it as purely contractual. If it is not in the contract/treaty that they can take revenge or deny wishes - then they have no way out. Ask Judge Judy!

 

In addition I have even shown that contract asside, they may NEED the A.S. to replace the "doorway" so that could give them incinitive not to antagonize the A.S. in their posession.

[Guest Barmacral]

IMO, I think that Lanfear and Moiraine did break the treaty, and in order for Mat to get Moiraine back, he will have to negotiate a new treaty with the Finn's. This might also involve the construction of a new doorway, perhaps demonstrated by Moiraine to Elayne. (thus giving her the breakthrough to make actual good working ter'angreal rather than just pale imitations of ones that are already there)

[Mr Ares]

Well... a) so what? I mean' date=' really. Would you give three gifts to someone who broke your door coming in? Much less the door through which you gained something you deeply valued... b) The fire of the door created light. Light is forbidden.[/quote']

 

Example: The city police come to my house and break down my door looking for a criminal or whatever. Do I still have to pay city taxes - Yes! It is a requirement of my FORCED contract with my city. There is nothing that says that if they mistakenly break down my door looking for someone else - that I don't have to pay my taxes.

1. You could leave the city

2. Completely the wrong example - the Finn do not pay the Randlanders "taxes", they are more akin to a seperate country with a trading contract. Now if people from country A blocked the main trade route to country B but were trapped on B's side the people of country B would hardly welcome them with open arms. The question is of how vital this contract is to the respective parties and how upset the the parties are at the loss of the trade route, and in As case, of the potential mistreatment of their people.

there is nothing that says that I have to be happy about it. What I like in that situation is completely irrevelent as it is with the Finns.

 

1. We don't know that there was ANY fire ot Light on their side.

2. We don't know that they are even aware immediately that their side no longer functions. It could still appear "Normal" to them.

3. We don't know that they have any flexability to take revenge.

4. We don't know that they have any flexability to DENY wishes.

 

Why do you keep siteing things that are completely open and undefined, as concrete facts? I freely admit - it could go either way. For the sake of this senario that I am proposing - we need to take the view that they have no choice in the matter.

 

 

Also,

For all we know, they might very well have a stockpile of "doors" and they will just toss it out out at Tower G.

 

When Matt was there before (correct me if I am wrong here) I thought he passed hundreds of "Doorways" so they have other avenues to aquire what they get from people.

 

 

 

The Dark One's victory results in death for them.

 

Actually it would be like a doorway burning on both sides. It was the destruction of the ter'angreal that caused the fire, not Moiraine or Lanfears specific weaves.

 

 

 

I have seen nothing to back these up. If they are stated in the books, please let me know. It sounds like just opinion to me. My view of them is that they exist in another demension and may have hundreds or even thousands of different worlds to draw on.

 

 

 

 

As i said, people seem to think the finns some sort of magical creature, bound by their nature to answer questions or grant wishes... they arnt. They are a people making use of a talent in trade for something they want from another people by way of a specific, and recent 'relatively speaking' trade agreement.

 

I never did this. I have always addressed it as purely contractual. If it is not in the contract/treaty that they can take revenge or deny wishes - then they have no way out. Ask Judge Judy!

 

In addition I have even shown that contract asside, they may NEED the A.S. to replace the "doorway" so that could give them incinitive not to antagonize the A.S. in their posession.

Just a quick question - what do you actually know about contract law? They may have a treaty, but that hardly means they have to accept every contract. To go back to my earlier example, just because contries A and B have a trade treaty, it doesn't mean that every merchant is automatically given a contract that both parties have to obey, it simply leaves the way open for parties from both sides to make their own contracts. Unless and until the two parties reach a binding contract - which requires an offer and acceptance - then the Finn are not obligated to give any wishes. And yes, I have studied contract law, however briefly.

[Luckers]

The thing is that I just do not see any requirement for the Finns to be happy about Moiraine/Lanfear or the Doorway or anything. These are not nice creatures ANYWAY. They ALWAYS try to trick you. They skin people, they kill people, they put monitors in your eye without asking and they always try their damndest to short change you on the wishes that they do give you.

 

They dont grant the wishes because they have to, they grant them because they want what they get in return. It's a relatively simple trade agreement. And when someone violates that agreement they are vicious, as we have seen.

 

I'm sorry, but given what Moiraine and Lanfear are, and how they entered... i mean the simple destruction of a valued trade route alone is cause for the ceasation of a treaty. Add to that the fire and Lanfear's Shadowness i personally think its extreme to think either woman were granted a valued service on behalf of the finns.

 

And given we know that both were held against their will, and one was later killed, id say we have evidence of their disatisfaction. And if they were pissed, there is no chance in hell they offered either woman their services.

 

Will going in there with Fire/Music and Iron make them MORE happy? I don’t think so.

 

Umm... i dont either... im not sure of your point though?

 

I don't LIKE paying my TAXs, but my association with the government does not require me to like it.

 

What matters is how the agreement was written, which we do not actually know. So we can suppose either way.

 

Well taxes are the due of one person in a system to that system. Its not a valid analogy. This is a trade agreement.

 

Secondly, we do have evidence. Both were held against their will and one ended up dead. On top of that we know that their entrance destroyed a valued trade route, and likely caused for the creation of one of the three things that is expressly forbidden in the treaty.

 

So no, i dont really think we have to suppose on this.

 

Example: The city police come to my house and break down my door looking for a criminal or whatever. Do I still have to pay city taxes - Yes! It is a requirement of my FORCED contract with my city. There is nothing that says that if they mistakenly break down my door looking for someone else - that I don't have to pay my taxes. there is nothing that says that I have to be happy about it. What I like in that situation is completely irrevelent as it is with the Finns.

 

1. We don't know that there was ANY fire ot Light on their side.

2. We don't know that they are even aware immediately that their side no longer functions. It could still appear "Normal" to them.

3. We don't know that they have any flexability to take revenge.

4. We don't know that they have any flexability to DENY wishes.

 

Why do you keep siteing things that are completely open and undefined, as concrete facts? I freely admit - it could go either way. For the sake of this senario that I am proposing - we need to take the view that they have no choice in the matter.

 

Ok, this isn't a forced contract with a city you live in, in a governmential system you were born to. This is a trade agreement between two peoples.

 

1. We know the destruction of the ter'angreal caused a very vicious fire. Simple logic suggest that since the destruction of the ter'angreal caused fire, then maybe, just maybe the destruction of the ter'angreal caused fire. That may just be me though.

 

2. The door is instantaneous. Suggesting that they arn't aware... well, there arnt even grounds in guesswork.

 

3. We've seen them wear human skin, and hang a man. Trust me, they can be vicious.

 

4. Thats part of that 'magical finnland' i was talking about. Seriously, these arn't magical creatures. They offer a service to humans based on what they can gain. And they offer that service within the bounds of a trade agreement. I mean... what exactly am i suggesting as fact? This is fact. It's in the books.

 

I have seen nothing to back these up. If they are stated in the books, please let me know. It sounds like just opinion to me. My view of them is that they exist in another demension and may have hundreds or even thousands of different worlds to draw on.

 

On Lanfear and Moiraine, no weaves were exchanged. It was the destruction of the doorway that caused the fire, that IS stated in the books. The second is also, if indirectly stated. The Dark One escapes in one universe he escapes in them all. This is first states by Verin, and supported by the Ogier. Incidently, they are a parallel world, not another dimension. RJ has said this...

 

 

 

I never did this. I have always addressed it as purely contractual. If it is not in the contract/treaty that they can take revenge or deny wishes - then they have no way out. Ask Judge Judy!

 

I'm sorry... but seriosly, right there you are implying altruistic magical positions on them. Their existence isn't to serve as seers and giftgivers to humans. This is an ability they have that they exchange for something that they value... human experience. Nothing but their desire for that holds them to that agreement, and that agreement is nothing but words. They honour it as long as it suits them to.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I really wish that people would stop calling what the Eelfinn do "granting wishes", or treating it that way even if they deny the words. Luckers is entirely right, they are not genies, they're interdimensional merchants, and the doorways are a trade route governed by a trade agreement. Nothing they did for Mat fell under the heading of "granting wishes". He purchased three things he asked for (albeit unknowingly), memories (which we know both sets of 'finns harvest and can somehow share), a way to be free of Aes Sedai, and to go back to Rhuidean. Only one of those requests (the memories) required any sort of "magical" power on the part of the Eelfinn, and its a limited power based on a specific ability we already knew they had. One that has since, I might add, been specifically clarified in the text (Kod chapters 8 and 10 ). The ter'angreal wasn't made by them, they just had it in stock. And passage home wouldn't have taken any more than throwing him over their shoulder and taking him out the door, hanging him incidentally once they got there.

 

The Eelfinn don't "grant wishes". NOWHERE IN THE TEXT IS THAT PHRASE OR IDEA EVER USED. Everything is spoken of in terms of an "agreement" or a "treaty". They're merchants, who deal in very rare items.

 

The doorway ter'angreal is a special passage formed for the purpose of trading. Even if your absurd idea that the doorway might somehow still look fine on their side, it no longer exists on the Randland side, and so has ceased to be a doorway. A doorway that no longer connects two places is not a doorway.

 

The basis for the treaty (or trade agreement) was the creation of the doorways. Destroying the basis for a trade agreement by cutting off access automatically negates that treaty, since the primary underlying stipulation of every trade treaty is the ability to trade. It is impossible for Lanfear and Moiraine not to have abrogated the treaty with the Eelfinn, regardless of whatever pyrotechnics may or may not have manifested on the Eelfinn side of the door.

 

In short, its nothing less than ludicrous to think that the Eelfinn were going to bargain with those two. The only reason to suppose that there has been an agreement made seems to be rooted in the equally absurd idea that either Lanfear or Moiraine must have killed Asmodean. We have seen no indications in any of the books of the outcome or results of any putative bargaining that allegedly took place, because their actions eliminated the basis of that treaty. Therefore, there is no reason to suppose that such bargaining occurred, and there IS reason to suppose that such bargaining did NOT occur.

 

I understand that you're not going to be convinced of this. But I feel its necessary to state it once again so that I will be that much more justified in my admittedly childish gloating when AMoL finally makes perfectly clear that the EELFINN DON'T GRANT WISHES.

 

Moiraine is sitting in a cell right now, unable to channel, hoping that Mat, Thom, and the guy she didn't know (aka Noal aka Jain "Farstrider" Charin) will come and save her. And they will. But she hasn't done jack except cry, think, and then strengthen herself mentally since TFoH. Maybe ... MAYBE she goaded Lanfear into doing whatever got her killed (assuming the Eelfinn didn't kill her for reasons of their own or she didn't commit suicide in order to get transmigrated out of there). Thats the limit of her possible involvement, in the last 6 books.

 

Let me say, finally, that if there seems to be an irritated edge in this post, there is, but its not really your fault. Please don't take it personally, because its not directed at you. The irritation is directed at the ideas, and there are many, many people besides you who espouse them. This is something of a rant based on the outgrowth of all those conversations, not just this one.

[Wanderer]

Frankly it always stuns me how people just pretend to see wath is good to support themselves and ignore everything else.

 

Wvlr is saying logical things, as logical as the last I've read for as much as we know. There's nothing that prove the central points, beacause the books aren't clear.

 

The only proven thing is this: the Finn make agreement or treaty and try to find loopholes in those as much as they can.Stop.

 

For the rest I make an example: the doorframe may be the same in Randland and in Finn-land OR not. It's possible,mind possible, that there are two doors one in one world and one in the other, in which case maybe only the one in Randland has been destroyed and if it is so, follow me pls, the broken-agreement theory-so-Moiraine&Lanfy-must-be-punished is no more.

 

Another point: as Wvlr said, we don't know the exact terms of the trade agreement made at the creation of the doorframe ter'angreal and in every trade agreement or bargain the details are very important.

 

Have you ever seen "Stargate" film or series? There are gates connecting worlds; it's a good example. But,oh yes, you can say that it could be the case of a traveling Gateway, one gate in both place, but where are the proof?

[wvlr]

Luckers & RobertAlexWillis

 

I edited the original post to eliminate the word "wishes" and substitute "requests/items" to reduce this prepetual confusion and any conotation of "magical" to the Finn "trade/exchanges".

 

Sorry that my misleading choice of wording had that effect. I can see how I created this confusion with a bad choice of words. It was not my intent, to imply any "magical" aspect to the Finns.

[Arath Faringal]

I really wish that people would stop calling what the Eelfinn do "granting wishes"...

 

But the moral of the Eelfinn story flows so much easier if you say 'Be careful what you wish for' instead of 'Be careful what you make a binding contractual agreement with interdimensional traders for'.

 

You can call them wishes' date=' agreements, treaties, demands, requests, bagels, whatever you want. :roll: You're still getting something that may be otherwise unobtainable, from a seemingly mysterious source. But this just sounds like a pet peeve of yours. Not gonna touch this anymore.

 

And given we know that both were held against their will, and one was later killed, id say we have evidence of their disatisfaction. And if they were pissed, there is no chance in hell they offered either woman their services.

 

This isn't clear evidence of their disatisfaction. I won't deny that it can be, but its far from concrete. Here are some other ways it could have happened, based on what we know.

 

1) Based on Mat's experience it can mean that they failed to negotiate a price, and didn't use one of their requests to escape. In Lanfears case, it could be as simple as the fact that nobody was there to perform CPR on her when the 'finns kicked her out eventually. Personaly, I think they killed her outright. But theres no evidence to support it.

 

2) Both could have been granted their requests after carefully worked out bargains (both of them were probably a little more acquanited with knowledge of the 'finns then Mat was), but upon completion were told, "Oh by the way, your doorway out of here doesn't exist anymore, so have a complimentary room at the Tower of Ghenji until we can get that fixed." Much better written of course, but something to that effect.

 

3) Upon arrival, the 'finns are undertandably pissed off, and want to hurt someone. Moiraine jumps up and points at Lanfear screaming 'She did it! She's a forsaken and she's here to kill you!' Finns kill Lanfear after holding/torturing for a while. Moiraine in the mean time, cleared from all charges, abstains from her 'requests', since she knows she's going to be there a while anyway. Better to not extend the price any more than necesary.

 

I'd say the last one is terribly unlikely based solely on RJ's writing style, but based on our evidence, its possible.

 

As far as I can tell we also have no evidence that the 'finns will outright deny their services. The closest I can think of was when the Aelfinn were pushing Mat out of the doorway because of an imminent danger to themselves or their world. And he still got answers to his questions. As traders, they'd know that you can't get something for nothing. With Mat (wish we had more examples than just him, but oh well) they didn't do anything to him until he'd used up his bargaining chips. They only enjoyed/fed from his presence. Granted, there are big differences. Mat could have left of his own free will before speaking with them, and the ladies had no such luxury. But even so, would they begin exacting payment on Moiraine and Lanfear before they'd even bought anything? Awful way to do business, especially if you want referals from your customers.

[wvlr]

Frankly it always stuns me how people just pretend to see wath is good to support themselves and ignore everything else.

 

Wvlr is saying logical things' date=' as logical as the last I've read for as much as we know. There's nothing that prove the central points, beacause the books aren't clear.

 

The only proven thing is this: the Finn make agreement or treaty and try to find loopholes in those as much as they can.Stop.

 

For the rest I make an example: the doorframe may be the same in Randland and in Finn-land OR not. It's possible,mind possible, that there are two doors one in one world and one in the other, in which case maybe only the one in Randland has been destroyed and if it is so, follow me pls, the broken-agreement theory-so-Moiraine&Lanfy-must-be-punished is no more.

 

Another point: as Wvlr said, we don't know the exact terms of the trade agreement made at the creation of the doorframe ter'angreal and in every trade agreement or bargain the details are very important.

 

Have you ever seen "Stargate" film or series? There are gates connecting worlds; it's a good example. But,oh yes, you can say that it could be the case of a traveling Gateway, one gate in both place, but where are the proof?[/quote']

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the support Wanderer.

 

Just trying to toss things out there that might show how RJ "MIGHT" try to pull a fast one on us. ie. Lead us down one path but provide in his writings another path to similar outcomes.

 

I could have just as easily said that Thom will sing and "mesmarize" them into doing what he wants. It is all hypothetical at this point, but there are more than one way to skin a Finn. Fireworks anyone?

 

 

 

 

 

 

But even so' date=' would they begin exacting payment on Moiraine and Lanfear before they'd even bought anything? Awful way to do business, especially if you want referals from your customers.[/quote']

 

 

 

Thanks for the support as well Arath Faringal.

 

And I would have to agree with much of what you said.

Assuming that the Finns can't "feed" on Moiraine and Lanfear without "paying the price" would they give up these last two "meals" that they might have in a long time, just because they are angry? A starving man takes what he can get.

[RobertAlexWillis]

And now, for tonight's Word. Wishful Thinking.

 

You can call them wishes, agreements, treaties, demands, requests, bagels, whatever you want.

 

I'm sorry, but the reason that there are different words for those different concepts is that they are different. And the difference is meaningful.

 

A "wish" is very different than a purchase. I can go to the store, and wish for a 42 inch plasma screen TV, but I won't get it. On the other hand, if I follow the rules of the store, I can get my TV in exchange for money.

 

But if I smash the door on the way in, the store isn't really going to care how much money I have. They're calling the police.

 

People act like the Eelfinn are somehow required to deal with Moiraine and Lanfear the same way they dealt with Mat, because of some magical requirement. That requirement does not exist.

 

This matters because any theory about anything involving Moiraine (pre-rescue) and Lanfear (pre-Cyndane) involves cooperation on the part of the Eelfinn. There simply is no reason to believe that either of them got any. And there IS reason to believe that they did not. Not only is Moiraine still "held", Lanfear remembers being "held".

 

As far as I can tell we also have no evidence that the 'finns will outright deny their services.

 

Actually, we do.

 

What do the Eelfinn get out of their bargains? According to the only person we know that they've dealt with, they get access to the future experiences of the people they made bargains with. (Mat in KoD) The Aelfinn get access to the memories of the people they bargain with. (per Moiraine in TSR) So, for the Eelfinn to make a bargain with someone, and then HOLD THEM CAPTIVE, makes no sense whatsoever. They're not getting to indulge their voyeuristic impulses. What else did Moiraine have to bargain with? Much less Lanfear.

 

Then there is the fact that the creation of the doorways was the basis for the creation of the treaty. Yes, I know thats not explicitly stated. It doesn't have to be. Doorways are connections, and trade doesn't exist without connections. Jordan doesn't feel the need to expound the blindingly obvious. Destruction of the connection has to void the treaty, because it inherently destroys the reason for the treaty. Anything else is ... dare I say it ... wishful thinking.

 

People like Moiraine and are fascinated by Lanfear. They are very interesting characters. And it is natural that people want them to be involved. But that doesn't mean it makes sense.

 

I edited the original post to eliminate the word "wishes" and substitute "requests/items" to reduce this prepetual confusion and any conotation of "magical" to the Finn "trade/exchanges".

 

Thats great, but if you still treat it like a magical transaction, then it doesn't really change anything. The Eelfinn simply have no reason to deal with either Moiraine or Lanfear under the terms of the treaty, and it seems that they have not, judging by the results (or lack thereof) that we have seen.

 

Look ... this speculation was well and good right after TFoH. We really didn't know at that point. But Jordan has cleared up the situation since then. Lanfear has reappeared, with memories of captivity and death. Moiraine's letter is now known, and she is held captive, as she knew she would be. Clinging to these ideas in light of all the information we have NOW is just ...

 

Wishful Thinking.

[Luckers]

Robert got it spot on.

[Arath Faringal]

Way to make a mountain out of a mole hill.

 

A "wish" is very different than a purchase. I can go to the store' date=' and wish for a 42 inch plasma screen TV, but I won't get it. On the other hand, if I follow the rules of the store, I can get my TV in exchange for money.[/quote']

 

Alright, since my sarcastic point was OBVIOUSLY missed, I'll try to explain what most people are thinking with the word 'wish' here.

 

The way you refer to it, is that a person goes to the store and thinks randomly 'I wish I had a 42 inch plasma screen TV ...' Yes. Logical and rational definition of 'wish'. However, what everyone else is getting at, is that a person with a genie in front of them is going to say 'I wish I had a 42 inch plasma screen TV!' Notice the subtle difference? 'Wish' in the second way is a demand, request, or whatever you want to call it, from a being with the power to fulfill this request (who may or may not require something in return depending on the story). Same word, different intention with its use. And before you harp on me for that, I know the 'finns aren't magically bound genies. They just have the terribly unfortunate similarity with something more widely recognized by us. Comparison is inevitable. Blame Aladdin.

 

But like I said before, this seems to just be your pet peeve. I actually find it kind of funny that you get so worked up about it. And I can see this argument rolling on and on and on simply because it can. So in order to save everyone time, you win. Happy?

 

What do the Eelfinn get out of their bargains? According to the only person we know that they've dealt with, they get access to the future experiences of the people they made bargains with. (Mat in KoD) The Aelfinn get access to the memories of the people they bargain with. (per Moiraine in TSR) So, for the Eelfinn to make a bargain with someone, and then HOLD THEM CAPTIVE, makes no sense whatsoever. They're not getting to indulge their voyeuristic impulses. What else did Moiraine have to bargain with? Much less Lanfear.

 

I do see your point. Why establish the link if all you're going to see is yourself? However, while Moiraine future experiences of sitting across the room and staring at the 'finns may not be the most interesting/entertaining to access, they are something. At the very least, its a new perspective on their own world.

 

But from Mat's experience, taking a spectator seat for your future isn't the only thing they do to you. It certainly seems an unavoidable part of the bargain, but hardly the only part. Voyeuristic and sadistic. They told Mat that he was wise for asking to leave, which leads me to believe that they would have held him for an indefinite amount of time had he not specifially asked for escape. It's possible that they would never have released him. Bargaining your way out seems to be an important part. Would they have still linked to Mat if they had never released him? Who knows? I would think yes simply because of their sadistic nature, but we have absolutely no way of knowing.

 

The point I was getting at before, is that the ladies captivity on the other side can be for any number of different reasons. I lean more toward the simple fact that the doorway is gone ... making getting out sort of problematic in and of itself. Not a punishment from the 'finns, but of natural laws of cause and effect.

 

Did they get to make their 'wishes'? I think they were given the chance. I don't think Moiraine made her's. Yet. I do think Lanfear demanded to be released, and after paying her price in captivity, she was shown the only available exit. Death.

 

Jordan doesn't feel the need to expound the blindingly obvious.

Damn near fell out of my seat laughing at that. That depends on how you define 'blindingly obvious'. (Asmodean anyone?)

[RobertAlexWillis]

They told Mat that he was wise for asking to leave, which leads me to believe that they would have held him for an indefinite amount of time had he not specifially asked for escape.

 

I would talk here about assumptions, but that horse is a bloody spot on my carpet.

 

As for the rest, I guess we'll just have to disagree.

 

I'm very afraid that I will go on a highly childish "SEE I TOLD YOU" rampage after AMoL is published .... -sigh-