Seanchan vs All Other Channelers

[John Mann]

As a long time reader of the books, there is one plot point that has bothered me for years and years. Brandon's recent spoiler discussion for the 10-year anniversary of Memory of Light, brought it to the forefront of my mind again and I thought I would see if the larger community had an answer. It is something I plan to ask Brandon himself if I ever get the chance.

 

When Aviendha goes to Rhuidean and through the columns a second time, she sees the future destruction of the Aiel. Essentially, the story is that the Seanchan prove to be too powerful, and they relentlessly pursue channelers across the continent and collar or kill just about all of them. What I can't wrap my brain around is how that is possible when linking is something everyone BUT the Seanchan can do. We know that the Aiel and Asha'man do not swear of the oath rod and are not limited by any Oaths. We also know that the Aes Sedai and Windfinders know how to link, as does Aviendha (Bowl of the Winds), and I'm sure many others learn it during the Last Battle. We know there are thousands of female channelers among the Wise Ones, Kin, Windfinders, and Aes Sedai. We know that there are hundreds of Asha'man and their number will no doubt grow after Tarmon Gai'don We know that a circle of thirteen women can overwhelm any individual channeler, we also know that the White and Black Towers know that men and women can link and extend the circles beyond 13 and those circles would be fantastically strong. So, how do the Seanchan with their inability to create circles compete with that? Once the Dragon's Peace is ended and all of the countries outside of Seanchan control have entered the war, the collaring and killing of channelers is an existential threat to the Wise Ones, Aes Sedai, Asha'man, Windfinders, Kin, and every other channeler. How are circles of dozens of channelers not being used to wipe the Seanchan off the face of the continent? Once the Seanchan bring the war to Andor, the White and Black Towers, The Two Rivers, and the rest of the countries outside of the Seanchan's control, this is the logical first step. Maybe the Seanchan could devise a way to combat the Aes Sedai with the limitations imposed by the oaths. But an alliance between the Asha'man and the Aiel, Windfinders, or Kin would surely be decisive.

 

Am I missing something?

[DaddyFinn]

Wasn't it mentioned in her visions that seanchan won because Randlanders didn't unite against them and were destroyed/conquered one by one?

[wotfan4472]

Yes. Basically, Egwene and Rand failed to work together at Merrilor, they agreed only to unite for the battles ahead, not stay united.

They won by fighting together, then reverted to how things were before Rand appeared, plotting and undermining each other, and so the Seanchan took advantage of that.

Of course, the Aiel basically ended up plotting what Couladin wanted to do, take control of the wetlands, and so tried to do the exact same thing.

Edited January 9, 2023 by wotfan4472

[Asthereal]

The ability to link is also something the Seanchan will probably learn about from the Aes Sedai they snatched and collared. Or from Moghedien, for that matter. Not sure how they'll use it, with damane involved, but they will have time to figure it out, as Randland is in shambles after The Last Battle and will need to rebuild.

 

But indeed the main thing about the prophecy from Rhuidean is that it will happen if the Dragon's Peace fails to be established properly. And Aviendha suggests the Aiel get a place and job in the peace as well, which should help. That's the cool thing avout seeing the future: if you know what can happen, you can change it.

Always in motion, the future is. Oh wait, different franchise. 😉

 

Funny thing is: it does go a tad against the lore of the Wheel of Time, where the same basic things keep happening over and over (determinism/fate). In a world like that, you would expect the future to be fixed, and if you can see part of the future, you could expect that to come to pass no matter what. But on the other hand: the Aiel being destroyed in the fourth Age might not even matter in the long long run. I fully expect the sixth (or so) Age to last hundreds of millions of years and have no humans alive at all, or a very limited number at least. We need to get rid of any evidence of the first Age before the first Age comes again, after all. And humans being alive and active tends to lead to fast developments, which tend to lead to Ages lasting "only" 3000 years or so.

 

But I may be overthinking things. I tend to connect everything outside of the Ages we know of to my theory that the world and everyone in it, the pattern, the Wheel of Time and reality itself were only made by The Creator in order to keep Shai'tan imprisoned and busy, so he could focus on other things.

[Scarloc99]

2 hours ago, Asthereal said:

The ability to link is also something the Seanchan will probably learn about from the Aes Sedai they snatched and collared. Or from Moghedien, for that matter. Not sure how they'll use it, with damane involved, but they will have time to figure it out, as Randland is in shambles after The Last Battle and will need to rebuild.

 

But indeed the main thing about the prophecy from Rhuidean is that it will happen if the Dragon's Peace fails to be established properly. And Aviendha suggests the Aiel get a place and job in the peace as well, which should help. That's the cool thing avout seeing the future: if you know what can happen, you can change it.

Always in motion, the future is. Oh wait, different franchise. 😉

 

Funny thing is: it does go a tad against the lore of the Wheel of Time, where the same basic things keep happening over and over (determinism/fate). In a world like that, you would expect the future to be fixed, and if you can see part of the future, you could expect that to come to pass no matter what. But on the other hand: the Aiel being destroyed in the fourth Age might not even matter in the long long run. I fully expect the sixth (or so) Age to last hundreds of millions of years and have no humans alive at all, or a very limited number at least. We need to get rid of any evidence of the first Age before the first Age comes again, after all. And humans being alive and active tends to lead to fast developments, which tend to lead to Ages lasting "only" 3000 years or so.

 

But I may be overthinking things. I tend to connect everything outside of the Ages we know of to my theory that the world and everyone in it, the pattern, the Wheel of Time and reality itself were only made by The Creator in order to keep Shai'tan imprisoned and busy, so he could focus on other things.

I always saw the determinism as less defined then that, the same broad things will happen as the wheel turns but there is immense scope as to the how and the why. Also it isn't like every human life is defined on a path and pre plotted out. 

Regardless of what happens between the Seanchan and the Aiel in the future eventually Humanity will evolve to a point where the one power is no longer needed, or forgotten and so fades from memory and with it all tales of the Dragon, the bore, the dark lord etc as a new 1st age turns. Then humanity will re discover the one power. It doesn't matter what the political situation is then, if the world is at war, or in peace a new 2nd age of legends will occur, eventually someone will bore into the Dark Lords prison and release him and so break the world again. A hero will rise, male or female, and lead the forces against the Dark Lords prison and then, in a final moment, the Dark Lord will hit back and taint the source (depending on the gender of the hero depends on which half of the source is tainted). Then that hero will die to be reborn again in a new 3rd age and so on. 

Petty things like fixing if the Aiel and the Seanchan get on, or ensuring which king has control of the world are tiny and insignificant in the grand scheme of the period of time we are looking at. Even if the Seanchan conquered all the worlds it's empire would fall to dust long before the 5th age turned. 

[Scarloc99]

10 hours ago, John Mann said:

As a long time reader of the books, there is one plot point that has bothered me for years and years. Brandon's recent spoiler discussion for the 10-year anniversary of Memory of Light, brought it to the forefront of my mind again and I thought I would see if the larger community had an answer. It is something I plan to ask Brandon himself if I ever get the chance.

 

When Aviendha goes to Rhuidean and through the columns a second time, she sees the future destruction of the Aiel. Essentially, the story is that the Seanchan prove to be too powerful, and they relentlessly pursue channelers across the continent and collar or kill just about all of them. What I can't wrap my brain around is how that is possible when linking is something everyone BUT the Seanchan can do. We know that the Aiel and Asha'man do not swear of the oath rod and are not limited by any Oaths. We also know that the Aes Sedai and Windfinders know how to link, as does Aviendha (Bowl of the Winds), and I'm sure many others learn it during the Last Battle. We know there are thousands of female channelers among the Wise Ones, Kin, Windfinders, and Aes Sedai. We know that there are hundreds of Asha'man and their number will no doubt grow after Tarmon Gai'don We know that a circle of thirteen women can overwhelm any individual channeler, we also know that the White and Black Towers know that men and women can link and extend the circles beyond 13 and those circles would be fantastically strong. So, how do the Seanchan with their inability to create circles compete with that? Once the Dragon's Peace is ended and all of the countries outside of Seanchan control have entered the war, the collaring and killing of channelers is an existential threat to the Wise Ones, Aes Sedai, Asha'man, Windfinders, Kin, and every other channeler. How are circles of dozens of channelers not being used to wipe the Seanchan off the face of the continent? Once the Seanchan bring the war to Andor, the White and Black Towers, The Two Rivers, and the rest of the countries outside of the Seanchan's control, this is the logical first step. Maybe the Seanchan could devise a way to combat the Aes Sedai with the limitations imposed by the oaths. But an alliance between the Asha'man and the Aiel, Windfinders, or Kin would surely be decisive.

 

Am I missing something?

Every Channeller captured and collared increases the Seanchan ability to fight, and, a side effect of the Collar is that each Chaneller is far far stronger while they wear it because they don't have to worry about drawing in too much of the one power, they can channel on the edge for far longer. Also every Seanchan Chaneller is a weapon of mass destruction. All those thousands of Chanellers you mention, how many of them focus on healing, on protection, on anything other then being a weapon. How many of them will baulk in the face of an advancing army, or try and be the pacifist? 

The Seanchan are also martially far far stonger and better organised then the armies of Randland, especially after the last battle which will have destroyed the majority of the Randland forces, while we know there are still whole armies across the sea. 

There is also the 3 oaths, where do they sit specifically when it comes to a war with the Seanchan? 

In terms of numbers of Ashaman, will there numbers grow exponentially as quickly as you say, it will take generations for the male chaneller gene to become more prevalent in Randland and beyond, and, now that Men are at no risk of going mad they can also now be collared. 

The entire of Randland would need to join forces and work together, including the Aiel, to stop a war but, and this is the most important thing, the War was not instigated by the Seanchan. The Aiel use subterfuge and trickery to try and make a war that the forces of Randland are not ready for and don't want happen. That instantly puts the nations on the backfoot when you consider that the Seanchan are always ready for war. 

[John Mann]

8 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

Wasn't it mentioned in her visions that seanchan won because Randlanders didn't unite against them and were destroyed/conquered one by one?

 Not really. There is an article on Tor that sumarizes the visions in chronological order rather than the reverse order and also attempts to estimate the time that passes. There is peace for a generation or two (roughly 57 years) before Andor enters the war with the Aiel. Once that happens, the Seanchan abandon the Dragon's Peace and begin collaring and capturing channelers everywhere. That's when I think Seanchan should have to start dealing with circles of channelers.

[John Mann]

3 hours ago, Asthereal said:

The ability to link is also something the Seanchan will probably learn about from the Aes Sedai they snatched and collared. Or from Moghedien, for that matter. Not sure how they'll use it, with damane involved, but they will have time to figure it out, as Randland is in shambles after The Last Battle and will need to rebuild.

 

But indeed the main thing about the prophecy from Rhuidean is that it will happen if the Dragon's Peace fails to be established properly. And Aviendha suggests the Aiel get a place and job in the peace as well, which should help. That's the cool thing avout seeing the future: if you know what can happen, you can change it.

Always in motion, the future is. Oh wait, different franchise. 😉

 

Funny thing is: it does go a tad against the lore of the Wheel of Time, where the same basic things keep happening over and over (determinism/fate). In a world like that, you would expect the future to be fixed, and if you can see part of the future, you could expect that to come to pass no matter what. But on the other hand: the Aiel being destroyed in the fourth Age might not even matter in the long long run. I fully expect the sixth (or so) Age to last hundreds of millions of years and have no humans alive at all, or a very limited number at least. We need to get rid of any evidence of the first Age before the first Age comes again, after all. And humans being alive and active tends to lead to fast developments, which tend to lead to Ages lasting "only" 3000 years or so.

 

But I may be overthinking things. I tend to connect everything outside of the Ages we know of to my theory that the world and everyone in it, the pattern, the Wheel of Time and reality itself were only made by The Creator in order to keep Shai'tan imprisoned and busy, so he could focus on other things.

The a'dam is a "forced ring" that does not allow for expansion. Since the sul'dam can't channel, the circle can't be expanded further. This is my main point. Their way of channeling has a limit on the power they can put into a weave. We know the strongest channeler would be overwhelmed by 13 weak channelers. We know that adding 1 man expands the circle to 27 adding more allows for more expansion up to 72. Unless the Seanchan change their ways, and the visions clearly state they do not, I can't see how they can overcome large circles of channelers in battle.

[John Mann]

57 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Every Channeller captured and collared increases the Seanchan ability to fight, and, a side effect of the Collar is that each Chaneller is far far stronger while they wear it because they don't have to worry about drawing in too much of the one power, they can channel on the edge for far longer. Also every Seanchan Chaneller is a weapon of mass destruction. All those thousands of Chanellers you mention, how many of them focus on healing, on protection, on anything other then being a weapon. How many of them will baulk in the face of an advancing army, or try and be the pacifist? 

The Seanchan are also martially far far stonger and better organised then the armies of Randland, especially after the last battle which will have destroyed the majority of the Randland forces, while we know there are still whole armies across the sea. 

There is also the 3 oaths, where do they sit specifically when it comes to a war with the Seanchan? 

In terms of numbers of Ashaman, will there numbers grow exponentially as quickly as you say, it will take generations for the male chaneller gene to become more prevalent in Randland and beyond, and, now that Men are at no risk of going mad they can also now be collared. 

The entire of Randland would need to join forces and work together, including the Aiel, to stop a war but, and this is the most important thing, the War was not instigated by the Seanchan. The Aiel use subterfuge and trickery to try and make a war that the forces of Randland are not ready for and don't want happen. That instantly puts the nations on the backfoot when you consider that the Seanchan are always ready for war. 

See, I don't think it would take the countries coming together. I think it would only take about 200 channelers deciding enough was enough and coming together to act unilaterally to end the war. The Seanchan can't link because they rely on the a'dam. We have seen no evidence that linking is possible beyond the "forced ring" that is the a'dam. If this is right, think of the power 5 circles of 40 channelers could summon and crush the Seanchan. A circle of Aes Sedai opened a gateway large enough for an entire army. A circle of only women changed the weather across the entire world. It is simply not reasonable, from what we know of the rules of channeling, that a bunch of individual channelers could stand up to an organized attack from circles of that size.

[Scarloc99]

3 hours ago, John Mann said:

See, I don't think it would take the countries coming together. I think it would only take about 200 channelers deciding enough was enough and coming together to act unilaterally to end the war. The Seanchan can't link because they rely on the a'dam. We have seen no evidence that linking is possible beyond the "forced ring" that is the a'dam. If this is right, think of the power 5 circles of 40 channelers could summon and crush the Seanchan. A circle of Aes Sedai opened a gateway large enough for an entire army. A circle of only women changed the weather across the entire world. It is simply not reasonable, from what we know of the rules of channeling, that a bunch of individual channelers could stand up to an organized attack from circles of that size.

And the seanchan open a gateway in the middle of each circle and send assassins through, a circle is a giant hammer yes, but, against the martial ability of the seanchan my money is still on the seanchan. 

[Stedding Tofu]

On 1/9/2023 at 5:08 AM, John Mann said:

When Aviendha goes to Rhuidean and through the columns a second time, she sees the future destruction of the Aiel. Essentially, the story is that the Seanchan prove to be too powerful

 

That is essentially a problem with the Seanchan throughout the series.  It's intentional to provide a threat other than The Shadow that is too powerful to be overcome and a stalemate / co-existence is necessary.  As a loose analogy I think of The Shadow as Nazi Germany, the Seanchan as the Soviet Union and Randland plus the Aiel as Western Europe.  Common cause is made between Randland and the Seanchan to defeat The Shadow but there is mutual hostility and a cold war ensues afterwards.

 

I think RJ is also motivated by examples of how effective empires have been in conquering and co-opting the conquered into the imperial war machine.  Whether Alexander the Great, Imperial Rome, the Ottoman or British Empires, the peoples of the conquered lands fill out the imperial armies.  In story it's not just any woman who can channel who is co-opted into the ever victorious army but within two years we see Taraboners, Amadicians and Altarans fighting under Seanchan banners.

 

There's also the point about how we should imagine Seanchan.  Is it the equivalent in size and population as Randland?  Or of Randland, The Aiel Waste, Shara and the Seafolk Isles in aggregate?  Closer to the latter than the former I think, leaving enormous resources under central unified rather than fragmented control.

 

Both Randland and the Aiel are devastated by Tarmon Gai'don and also by the earlier Seanchan invasion, as is The White Tower.  By contrast the Seanchan gain access to the thousands of women who never went to The White Tower so their power increases and they gain more land and troops to replenish their losses.  A truce to allow Tuon to re-establish her authority in Seanchan - no small task - leaves the Seanchan in a far stronger position that at the start of the story with a third of Randland fighting for them.

 

The three oaths are constraining and with the capture of Elaida the Seanchan have access to gateways allowing them to strike when and where they choose. Whether this leads to mutually assured destruction or the triumph of numbers - and the Seanchan have the advantage as well as dedicated training - is an open question.  I think RJ wanted to achieve a victory over the shadow but not to deliver a paradise or utopia so a world full of injustice and danger is the realistic outcome of victory.

 

On 1/9/2023 at 3:43 PM, Sir_Charrid said:

I always saw the determinism as less defined then that, the same broad things will happen as the wheel turns but there is immense scope as to the how and the why. Also it isn't like every human life is defined on a path and pre plotted out. 

 

I agree with this but would be even looser in the form of the turnings with the taint and the Dragon's madness being merely one possible outcome from an imperfect sealing.

 

On 1/9/2023 at 4:49 PM, John Mann said:

The a'dam is a "forced ring" that does not allow for expansion. Since the sul'dam can't channel, the circle can't be expanded further. This is my main point. Their way of channeling has a limit on the power they can put into a weave. We know the strongest channeler would be overwhelmed by 13 weak channelers. We know that adding 1 man expands the circle to 27 adding more allows for more expansion up to 72. Unless the Seanchan change their ways, and the visions clearly state they do not, I can't see how they can overcome large circles of channelers in battle.

 

Demandred turns up at Merrilor with a "full" circle (72 I think?) and a sa'angreal showing just how devastating this could be.  And where now is call'andor?

 

Against this you have to consider how quickly channellers tire when wielding large amounts of The One Power and how effective the bloodknives were when let loose in The White Tower (another example imo of RJ making The Seanchan too powerful)

[Scarloc99]

I will also add that Matt’s Fox head is out there as is the ability to copy it, you don’t need many bloodknives set up with one of them let loose amongst a circle and suddenly it is a bad day for the Channerlers, we also have never seen what collaring someone who is in a circle does to them or the circle. It may be as simple as getting close enough to collar one and the feedback impacts the rest of the circle leaving a gap for others to be collared. 

[ToEleven]

I have to say I'm really sad about this foretelling from ToM. It's a pointless tragedy to have the Seanchan take over the world, and enslave all of the channelers. Basically all of the hope I had for what the protagonists worked and sacrificed is for nothing... down the toilet. Geez was this Sanderson's idea or Jordan's? I would love to see the Seanchan ground into dust honestly.

 

So as it stands, all of your beloved Aes Sedia, Wise Ones and Asha'man characters die as collared dogs... the end.

[ToEleven]

Ok, so in reading through this thread am I to assume that all of the Aes Sedai, Wise Ones and Ashaman will be killed or enslaved by the Seanchan after the ending of this series?? What a horrible ending to the heroes Journey.

[Scarloc99]

5 hours ago, ToEleven said:

Ok, so in reading through this thread am I to assume that all of the Aes Sedai, Wise Ones and Ashaman will be killed or enslaved by the Seanchan after the ending of this series?? What a horrible ending to the heroes Journey.

No by enveloping the Aiel into the Dragons Peace and giving them a role it suggests that this potential future has been averted. 
 

Having said that the idea that the world moves into some peaceful utopia is not how I see the end of the series, the dark lord is dead, but humanity is still capable of evil, warfare, expansionist tendencies and a desire to gain power. You still have whitecloaks who will believe all channelers where black ajah and the Seanchan still have the power to collar. In fact I find it more likely that the whitecloaks will at some point get hold of collars and capture their own aes sedai prisoners to use in the pursuit of the light. After all, the whitecloaks won the final battle, they are the creators chosen. 
 

Finally the thing to consider, by the end of the 7th age humanity has to have undergone such a cataclysm that they are effectively back in the Stone Age, all technology and knowledge of the source lost in its entirety so the first age can begin over and humanity not actually learn about the source until the end of that age as they love into the new 2nd age (age of legends) release the dark lord and so start the cycle again. 
 

The aes sedai of the books will fall and die, the Aiel will fail, the Seanchan will fall. Even the Finn will be forgotten and lose all contact to the world, until they are rediscovered (if they ever are). Maybe the world has a few hundred years of peace, but that will be broken. 

[Stedding Tofu]

21 hours ago, ToEleven said:

Ok, so in reading through this thread am I to assume that all of the Aes Sedai, Wise Ones and Ashaman will be killed or enslaved by the Seanchan after the ending of this series?? What a horrible ending to the heroes Journey.

 

Not sure if you're still reading but Aviendha was steered by Nakomi to think about the Aiel's future.  The visions she had in Rhuidean are a nightmare but she also saw how that unfolded so knows to guard against it.  And she does share that with the other Wise Ones so it's more like "there is no fate but what we make" and there is a particular outcome the Aiel are forewarned of and determined to prevent.

 

15 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

 

Finally the thing to consider, by the end of the 7th age humanity has to have undergone such a cataclysm that they are effectively back in the Stone Age,
 

The aes sedai of the books will fall and die, the Aiel will fail, the Seanchan will fall. Even the Finn will be forgotten and lose all contact to the world, until they are rediscovered (if they ever are). Maybe the world has a few hundred years of peace, but that will be broken. 

 

Or they evolve into something else.  The problem with time as a circle is that you have to return to the state of innocence.  Obviously we experience time linearly so we have no benchmark for this and a cataclysm seems the only way to achieve that but the idea that humanity repeatedly destroys itself and rises from the ashes only to doom itself again in an eternal cycle is just too bleak and pessimistic to contemplate so is wisely left off page.  

 

Enough time has to pass for things to be forgotten but we don't know how or why.

[ToEleven]

Thanks for these great explanations. Needless to say as  get toward the end of this series I'm getting a bit attached to the characters and stories.😁

[KakitaOCU]

I think everyone is failing to take into account one guns and mass production will do for the Seanchan.   Seanchan have cannon.  It's clear in the Bad for Aiel future that Tuon is killed early on, probably Mat too.  Which means whoever takes over has Cannon without any ties to the rest of the world.

It's only a matter of time and stray thoughts to take cannon and go "What if smaller?"  And from there it begins.  Now a random soldier is as powerful as a weaker channeler, but there's 100 soldiers for every channeler, a 1000.  Some would be individually powerful and able to hold, but no one is invisible or infallible and the Seanchan aren't just throwing rifles and cannon against channelers, they have their own Damane too, trained up with the secrets taken from the captured and from Moghedien...

It's honestly inevitable and probably what leads to the One Power being lost and forgotten.  Once the Seanchan have all channelers dead or collared, less and less will be born over generations, not to mention it will become something that is not worth pursuing and so fades.

Tragic as it is, what Aviendha saw is what will happen, if not with the Seanchan vs the Aiel than with whatever the Seanchan evolve into or maybe the Seanchan turn things around but someone else gets the idea...  

[Scarloc99]

5 hours ago, Stedding Tofu said:

 

Not sure if you're still reading but Aviendha was steered by Nakomi to think about the Aiel's future.  The visions she had in Rhuidean are a nightmare but she also saw how that unfolded so knows to guard against it.  And she does share that with the other Wise Ones so it's more like "there is no fate but what we make" and there is a particular outcome the Aiel are forewarned of and determined to prevent.

 

 

Or they evolve into something else.  The problem with time as a circle is that you have to return to the state of innocence.  Obviously we experience time linearly so we have no benchmark for this and a cataclysm seems the only way to achieve that but the idea that humanity repeatedly destroys itself and rises from the ashes only to doom itself again in an eternal cycle is just too bleak and pessimistic to contemplate so is wisely left off page.  

 

Enough time has to pass for things to be forgotten but we don't know how or why.

Babylon 5 covered this idea in the final episode of the final season. Humanity in earth has regressed back to a pre technology stage because of warfare. Meanwhile humanity in the stars has evolved to beings of pure energy that exist much like the vorlons did. 

[Scarloc99]

44 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

I think everyone is failing to take into account one guns and mass production will do for the Seanchan.   Seanchan have cannon.  It's clear in the Bad for Aiel future that Tuon is killed early on, probably Mat too.  Which means whoever takes over has Cannon without any ties to the rest of the world.

It's only a matter of time and stray thoughts to take cannon and go "What if smaller?"  And from there it begins.  Now a random soldier is as powerful as a weaker channeler, but there's 100 soldiers for every channeler, a 1000.  Some would be individually powerful and able to hold, but no one is invisible or infallible and the Seanchan aren't just throwing rifles and cannon against channelers, they have their own Damane too, trained up with the secrets taken from the captured and from Moghedien...

It's honestly inevitable and probably what leads to the One Power being lost and forgotten.  Once the Seanchan have all channelers dead or collared, less and less will be born over generations, not to mention it will become something that is not worth pursuing and so fades.

Tragic as it is, what Aviendha saw is what will happen, if not with the Seanchan vs the Aiel than with whatever the Seanchan evolve into or maybe the Seanchan turn things around but someone else gets the idea...  

I always wonder what happened in the age of legends to get rid of simple guns. You have what I guess are lasers and fire canons etc, and sword fighting. But what about a good old pistol, that could have done for all the forsaken one at a time lol. I guess it’s the same reason as why Harry never took a handgun to the Voldemort fight, or why dr evil never let his son just shoot Austin Powers in the head, just not the way things are done :). 

Edited February 9, 2023 by Sir_Charrid

[KakitaOCU]

8 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

You have what I guess are lasers and fire canons etc

Do we have actual evidence that they were lasers of some sort?  I know we all assumed because shocklance sounds high tech or magical.  But the Shock could be the soundwave from the bullet.

Kind of like in Fall of Angels we have the locals all describing the angels wielding "Thunder Throwers" that devastate at a distance.  Jump to the PoV of said angels and they're standard side arms and they're worried about what happens when they run out of rounds.

[DojoToad]

2 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

Tragic as it is, what Aviendha saw is what will happen, if not with the Seanchan vs the Aiel than with whatever the Seanchan evolve into or maybe the Seanchan turn things around but someone else gets the idea...  

I thought Aviendha was working on a way around the future for the Aiel.  Something as simple as changing the names of her children from the vision.  If that is different could not the whole future be different.

 

Not saying this is valid, but I believe that several Wise Ones thought the idea had merit.

[KakitaOCU]

I apologize if I conflated two points.  I 100% think Aviendha is working to change the Aiel's future and that it is possible to change.

I'm simply saying that we need SOMETHING to lead to magic disappearing from the world.  An state of people being afraid of magic users for their individual power and as a scapegoat for other problems combined with weapons that equalize the battlefield is going to come.

It doesn't by any means need to be the Seanchan smashing the Aiel as an inevitability.  Aviendha and others can fix things and maybe everything goes peaceful for a while and then three thousand years from now whatever Kingdom comes after Seanchan has the war.  

To go to my original point someone else could get the idea.  Aiel are shown to have non channeling Wise Ones.  Wise One seniority seems to be due to wisdom, experience and force of will.  Because of Channeler's slow aging they always end up on top.  But that could be noticed, or down the line the Aiel as the peace keepers have the strongest military and grow tired of other channeling orders interfering and the war starts that way.

In general the advent of simpler to use weaponry means the end of individually powerful beings.  In real life as an example Firearms and even before that the crossbow ended the armored knight.  Not because a Knight couldn't still be devastating but because the money to outfit and train a knight could outfit and train 10 Crossbowmen.  

[Stedding Tofu]

5 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Babylon 5 covered this idea in the final episode of the final season. Humanity in earth has regressed back to a pre technology stage because of warfare. Meanwhile humanity in the stars has evolved to beings of pure energy that exist much like the vorlons did. 

 

The Planet of The Apes and Battlestar Galactica too (the 2000s remake).  But these are post-apocalyptic visions of one possible future not an endless cycle repeating cycle (though BS comes close with Earth, Kobol and The Twelve Colonies all suffering the same fate). 

 

Assuming it's always a disaster that leads to regression is the species equivalent of Humanity being Sisyphus endlessly pushing the boulder up the hill only to have it roll back to the bottom.  RJ's analogy and inspiration from Oriental mysticism is poetic and engaging but it's best not to look too closely at "the return to innocence" unless you posit a peaceful possibility - at least some of the time.

 

6 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

I think everyone is failing to take into account one guns and mass production will do for the Seanchan.   Seanchan have cannon.  It's clear in the Bad for Aiel future that Tuon is killed early on, probably Mat too.  Which means whoever takes over has Cannon without any ties to the rest of the world.

 

I thought it took several generations for the drift to War in Aviendha's visions.  My impression was that Tuon and Mat and all the others like Perrin had died naturally.  Curiously Elayne is absent though she should live to 300 or 400 but I think it's principally because she would not have let herself be manipulated into the Aiel strikes that she is airbrushed out for her descendants.  Either that or a much longer span of time has passed.

 

It's very possible that the Fourth Age will see industrial / early modern warfare.  But then again with The Dragon's Peace being the equivalent of The League of Nations / UN but with an effective enforcement arm in The Aiel it very well might not degenerate into mass warfare.

 

The possibility that technology replaces magic is very real once it starts to be researched and rolled out.  It doesn't have to end with everyone wearing a collar and serving a global authoritarian empire.  It's very much an open future not a predetermined one.

[KakitaOCU]

14 hours ago, Stedding Tofu said:

I thought it took several generations for the drift to War in Aviendha's visions.  My impression was that Tuon and Mat and all the others like Perrin had died naturally. 

Aviendha's vision of Padra, her daughter, has them reflect that there had almost been peace with the Empress but then she died.  It doesn't 100% spell out, but it does seem they fell to assasins or a coupe.  It kind of makes sense, no matter how hard headed she is about it, Fortuona had hints of not being a monster and Mat likely wouldn't have let all out war push forward if he could stop it.  But if they're both removed...