Are Mat and Perrin also aspects of Lewis Therin?

[Scarloc99]

I have found myself recently wondering if the wheel chose not to create 1 dragon reborn, but instead create 3 aspects of the last dragon in order to win the final battle? 
 

It is clear that at the final battle, the way it plays out, the 3 boys have equally important roles. Yes Rand fights the battle with the dark lord, but, without Mat leading the battle on the physical plane and Perrin leading the fight in the Tel'aran'rhiod the battle would probably have been lost altogether. 

Therefore I wonder did the pattern effectively create 3 aspects of the dragon reborn. 
 

Rand the main splinter, consisting of the memories of Lewis, his spirit, of course his ability to channel. He is the Dragon reborn of the prophesy. But throughout the series he is never the general Lewis was, you could argue he does not have the natural leadership of Perrin and, he doesn’t have the same abilities in Tel'aran'rhiod as Perrin (although we don’t know what Lewis Theron’s abilities where there). 

 

Mat the general, at points even the forsaken mistake him for Lewis Therin in terms

of how he uses his armies. He represents the martial experience of the original dragon but he doesn’t have the natural leadership of the 3rd aspect. 
 

Perrin, as well as being the force in Tel'aran'rhiod Perrin is the most natural leader. Where Rand rules with an iron fist through fear, power or because of prophecy he doesn’t inspire. Mat leads through experience and because he is a great general, but he would struggle to lead a city in peacetime, getting bored and not really inspiring the people. 
 

Perrin however represents that aspect of Lewis Therin that the people loved, the would die for him not because of what he was or could do but because of him. this is what many of the Forsaken hated him for, jealous not just of his power but his nature and ability to lead. Perrin leads because he inspires, those that follow him do so because they love him. 
 

Even Berlain could be considered Perins Lanfer maybe, the spurned women who then works against him. That may be a stretch though. 
 

I do think it Interesting that Lanfer attempts to seduce all 3 of them, almost as if she is drawn to the other 2 despite knowing Rand is Lewis reborn. 
 

So thoughts, did the pattern split Lewis into 3 in some way knowing that on his own he could not be in all 3 aspects he would need to be at the last battle, did Rand become weaker in some aspects because those sides of Lewis Therins personality where spin out to Mat and Perrin? 

Edited December 18, 2022 by Sir_Charrid

[Asthereal]

I really like this theory. It's a neat idea and I never thought of it before. I don't think it works in the basic lore, as the same souls are spun out into the world periodically, so Perrin and Mat should be their own souls, who are also ta'veren and of course very important for the pattern.

 

But it's a cool idea, and we can always theorycraft. Assuming it is possible for a soul to be splintered into fragments (and assuming it can be reunited for the next turning of the wheel), it would give us a number of interesting options. We could start to look for other examples. For instance whether the Amyrlin who denied help to Lews Therin for his plan to imprison the Dark One got reincarnated in a splintered way as well, her protectiveness in Nynaeve and her boldness in Egwene?

[DojoToad]

Very interesting idea I never would have come up with on my own.  I will consider it on my next read through for sure.  Might change the way the series feels...

[Kalessin]

The first time I've ever come across this idea was in Fritz Leiber's Swords in Lankhmar stories. So it's not new, as such.

[Mailman]

On 12/19/2022 at 9:36 AM, Sir_Charrid said:

I have found myself recently wondering if the wheel chose not to create 1 dragon reborn, but instead create 3 aspects of the last dragon in order to win the final battle? 
 

It is clear that at the final battle, the way it plays out, the 3 boys have equally important roles. Yes Rand fights the battle with the dark lord, but, without Mat leading the battle on the physical plane and Perrin leading the fight in the Tel'aran'rhiod the battle would probably have been lost altogether. 

Therefore I wonder did the pattern effectively create 3 aspects of the dragon reborn. 
 

Rand the main splinter, consisting of the memories of Lewis, his spirit, of course his ability to channel. He is the Dragon reborn of the prophesy. But throughout the series he is never the general Lewis was, you could argue he does not have the natural leadership of Perrin and, he doesn’t have the same abilities in Tel'aran'rhiod as Perrin (although we don’t know what Lewis Theron’s abilities where there). 

 

Mat the general, at points even the forsaken mistake him for Lewis Therin in terms

of how he uses his armies. He represents the martial experience of the original dragon but he doesn’t have the natural leadership of the 3rd aspect. 
 

Perrin, as well as being the force in Tel'aran'rhiod Perrin is the most natural leader. Where Rand rules with an iron fist through fear, power or because of prophecy he doesn’t inspire. Mat leads through experience and because he is a great general, but he would struggle to lead a city in peacetime, getting bored and not really inspiring the people. 
 

Perrin however represents that aspect of Lewis Therin that the people loved, the would die for him not because of what he was or could do but because of him. this is what many of the Forsaken hated him for, jealous not just of his power but his nature and ability to lead. Perrin leads because he inspires, those that follow him do so because they love him. 
 

Even Berlain could be considered Perins Lanfer maybe, the spurned women who then works against him. That may be a stretch though. 
 

I do think it Interesting that Lanfer attempts to seduce all 3 of them, almost as if she is drawn to the other 2 despite knowing Rand is Lewis reborn. 
 

So thoughts, did the pattern split Lewis into 3 in some way knowing that on his own he could not be in all 3 aspects he would need to be at the last battle, did Rand become weaker in some aspects because those sides of Lewis Therins personality where spin out to Mat and Perrin? 

It's not a bad idea to explore but i don't believe it's the case.

 

Mat is a better general than Lews ever was at least according to Demandred. We also never really see Rand attempting to lead a battle at any point I can remember in the earlier books he realizes he lacks the ability and after he gains Lews memories he cedes control of the last battle to Elayne and her generals. And not even to Mat despite his known advantages.

 

I also see Perrin in more of a bodyguard role than that of a leader, he was loved but really only by those closest to him in a I would die for you way. Perrins role throughout the last battle was not about inspiring those around him but protecting Rand.

[Samt]

On 12/19/2022 at 6:40 AM, Asthereal said:

I really like this theory. It's a neat idea and I never thought of it before. I don't think it works in the basic lore, as the same souls are spun out into the world periodically, so Perrin and Mat should be their own souls, who are also ta'veren and of course very important for the pattern.

 

But it's a cool idea, and we can always theorycraft. Assuming it is possible for a soul to be splintered into fragments (and assuming it can be reunited for the next turning of the wheel), it would give us a number of interesting options. We could start to look for other examples. For instance whether the Amyrlin who denied help to Lews Therin for his plan to imprison the Dark One got reincarnated in a splintered way as well, her protectiveness in Nynaeve and her boldness in Egwene?

Just a nitpick, but there was no Amyrlin in the age of legends. The ring of Tamyrlin was worn by the leader of the Aes Sedai at the time. And the ring was worn by LTT himself. The Amyrlin seat title is probably a corruption of the Tamyrlin ring and was created after the breaking.

[Elendir]

I feel like your suggestion is in contradiction with main message of final battle. Victory of light in final battle want about one person. It was about many heroes. Your suggestion would be narrowing it all back to Dragon, where it said it isn't only dragon who fought.

 

So, for me is Perin and Mat their own person and reborn of their own soul.

[Asthereal]

On 1/21/2023 at 6:26 AM, Samt said:

Just a nitpick, but there was no Amyrlin in the age of legends. The ring of Tamyrlin was worn by the leader of the Aes Sedai at the time. And the ring was worn by LTT himself. The Amyrlin seat title is probably a corruption of the Tamyrlin ring and was created after the breaking.

 

I might be confusing this with the show, then. In the show I think it's the female Amyrlin who said no to LTT, but I'm not 100% sure on how this happened in the books. I'd have to look that up. Well spotted.

[Aan-Alone]

On 1/23/2023 at 4:39 AM, Asthereal said:

 

I might be confusing this with the show, then. In the show I think it's the female Amyrlin who said no to LTT, but I'm not 100% sure on how this happened in the books. I'd have to look that up. Well spotted.

In the books, it wasn't a female Amrilyn who opposed LTT, but a powerful, and influential, female AS...whose name escapes me. She got just about every other powerful female AS to join her in opposing LTT.

Edited December 22, 2023 by Aan-Alone
Specificity

[Asthereal]

On 12/22/2023 at 5:42 PM, Aan-Alone said:

In the books, it wasn't a female Amrilyn who opposed LTT, but a powerful, and influential, female AS...whose name escapes me. She got just about every other powerful female AS to join her in opposing LTT.

 

Just looked it up in the WoT Wiki, and it was Latra Posae Decume, leading a large group of female Aes Sedai. The decision was named the Fateful Concord. In the Age of Legends the Aes Sedai were organized very differently, with ajahs being temporary groups with a common purpose, much more freedom in chosen occupations and the leader of the Aes Sedai was called the First Among Servants, which has much less of a feeling of absolute power compared to the Amyrlin Seat. But then again, trouble was seldom and far between in those days, so why bother with strong leadership. And then Mierin did an oopsy that the old Aes Sedai were woefully unprepared for. 😛