Nakomi!!

[Scarloc99]

I always felt the idea of the Creator having a direct impact on the world didn't fit with the sense of the world. I have always seen the Dark Lord as being a being below that of a god, in a universe where you have the Finn and Mashadar you can believe there is a creature that exists that is not linked to a creator in anyway. My hope was in fact that Rand would discover in the last battle that there was no real creator, in fact I always hoped that Rand would kill the dark lord and then trap the being that Fain had become thus creating a new dark lord for the next turning and discovering that the "dark Lord" was in fact just a creation of the turning of the wheel. Alas that never happened. 

My other issue with the Creator impacting the world is that the one scene we have where he talks to Rand feels like a carbon copy of the same scenes in the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. He has several conversations with the "creator" a being who can interact directly with his own world, but not with the world he travels to and they feel really similar to that scene. 

[Stedding Tofu]

On 11/29/2022 at 10:10 AM, Sir_Charrid said:

My other issue with the Creator impacting the world is that the one scene we have where he talks to Rand feels like a carbon copy of the same scenes in the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. He has several conversations with the "creator" a being who can interact directly with his own world, but not with the world he travels to and they feel really similar to that scene. 

 

Yes, I felt that pretty strongly too.  The voice in TEOTW saying "I will take no part.  Only the chosen one can do what must be done, if he will." reminded me very heavily of The Creator of The Land telling Thomas Covenant he could not intervene directly without breaking The Arch of Time (analogous to The Wheel).

[wotfan4472]

On 11/29/2022 at 11:10 PM, Sir_Charrid said:

I always felt the idea of the Creator having a direct impact on the world didn't fit with the sense of the world. I have always seen the Dark Lord as being a being below that of a god, in a universe where you have the Finn and Mashadar you can believe there is a creature that exists that is not linked to a creator in anyway. My hope was in fact that Rand would discover in the last battle that there was no real creator, in fact I always hoped that Rand would kill the dark lord and then trap the being that Fain had become thus creating a new dark lord for the next turning and discovering that the "dark Lord" was in fact just a creation of the turning of the wheel. Alas that never happened. 

My other issue with the Creator impacting the world is that the one scene we have where he talks to Rand feels like a carbon copy of the same scenes in the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. He has several conversations with the "creator" a being who can interact directly with his own world, but not with the world he travels to and they feel really similar to that scene. 

That is where you are wrong. The Dark One is not below the Creator, he is the equal being.

That is plain to see over the course of the books, and especially by the Last Battle, just on the effects on reality.

If he was not equal, there would be no prison, and no Bore, still less no effects on reality.

Things like insects womiting out of people, or people having lava pour out of their heads, or entire rooms moving about, and tapestries totally depicting different images would not be mentioned if he was a lesser form of being. 

 

It still goes back to the Creator acting as a last ditch attempt by the Wheel and the Pattern to stop certain events playing out that the Dark One wanted to happen.

That is a fantasy rule of world building; if a world has a Creator being and an opposite, and that opposite being breaks the rules of an encounter, the other has to also forgo abstaining to maintain the balance in existence to keep it going. It is a rarely explored aspect of deity beings in fantasy, since fantasy does not always explore it.

 

The only other title that explored it more than this was the Mallorean, exemplified when the Seeress Of Kell added Beldin to the group, because Zandramas added a Demon Lord to her group.

There is also one other title that explored it even less than Wheel Of Time, and that title was the Lord Of The Rings, exemplified when Gollum fell into Mount Doom. 

Edited December 2, 2022 by wotfan4472

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, wotfan4472 said:

That is where you are wrong. The Dark One is not below the Creator, he is the equal being.

That is plain to see over the course of the books, and especially by the Last Battle, just on the effects on reality.

If he was not equal, there would be no prison, and no Bore, still less no effects on reality.

Things like insects womiting out of people, or people having lava pour out of their heads, or entire rooms moving about, and tapestries totally depicting different images would not be mentioned if he was a lesser form of being. 

 

It still goes back to the Creator acting as a last ditch attempt by the Wheel and the Pattern to stop certain events playing out that the Dark One wanted to happen.

That is a fantasy rule of world building; if a world has a Creator being and an opposite, and that opposite being breaks the rules of an encounter, the other has to also forgo abstaining to maintain the balance in existence to keep it going. It is a rarely explored aspect of deity beings in fantasy, since fantasy does not always explore it.

 

The only other title that explored it more than this was the Mallorean, exemplified when the Seeress Of Kell added Beldin to the group, because Zandramas added a Demon Lord to her group.

There is also one other title that explored it even less than Wheel Of Time, and that title was the Lord Of The Rings, exemplified when Gollum fell into Mount Doom. 

And this is where I hoped RJ or BS would go against the grain of this kind of story, I think it would have been really interesting to discover that the "Dark Lord" was not some uiverse wide cosmic being, but that was in itself another Lie. It would have been equally interesting to discover that there is in fact no true creator, that the concept has been created out of Myth. That the world in the age of Legends had become Athiest, the discovery of the "Dark Lord" then inspired a new religion to spring up with the mis informed idea that the existence of the "Dark Lord" means the existence of a creator, only for Rand to discover in the final battle that there is no Creator and the Dark Lord is a powerful being, yes, but not god like. 

It is similar in a way to the idea of the Mechanicum in the 40K universe, in that case the Emperor trapped a Ctan, an ancient alien being that on it's own was powerful enough to swallow a whole sun, on Mars. Much later on Humanity spread to Mars and the imprisoned C'tan was able to influence the humans into worshipping it as a god. I just always felt the WOT would have had a far more interesting end if at the end you realised there was no Creator, no God, and the Darkone was, like that Ctan, an ancient alien being of evil and hate, and then the realisation that Fain had to be imprisoned in that same prison to prevent him infecting the world with his evil. But thats a personal opinion. 

[Stedding Tofu]

20 hours ago, wotfan4472 said:

That is where you are wrong. The Dark One is not below the Creator, he is the equal being.

That is plain to see over the course of the books, and especially by the Last Battle, just on the effects on reality.

If he was not equal, there would be no prison, and no Bore, still less no effects on reality.

Things like insects womiting out of people, or people having lava pour out of their heads, or entire rooms moving about, and tapestries totally depicting different images would not be mentioned if he was a lesser form of being. 

 

These effects are the unravelling of threads of the pattern which is nothing less than the unravelling of  part of reality, the replacement of order and rules with chaos and, in effect, entropy,  as order turning to chaos implies the destruction of life - the pinnacle of complex organisation.

 

But the ability to weave threads of the pattern and to reshape reality is not the preserve of deities alone.  Ta'veren reshape the pattern, Rand seems to learn how to weave the threads of the pattern directly and human beings wielding the one power - particularly balefire - have the ability to destroy threads of the pattern and end existence, at least until Egwene comes up with a counter weave.

 

RJ is heavily influenced by eastern philosophy and the idea of opposites, the ying and yang, so The Dark One is the antithesis of the Creator but is he an equal?  The Creator made the Wheel and the World(s) and sealed The Dark One away from his creations which suggests an inferior and allows room for speculation at the reader's discretion.  I'm more influenced by Christian philosophy which sees Lucifer / The Devil as inferior, a fallen angel, a view mirrored by JRRT with Melkor being a rebellious valar (one of the 15 most powerful ainur and Sauron merely a powerful maia, a second level ainur).  There's no need for The Big Bad to be the equal of The Creator in other words.

 

20 hours ago, wotfan4472 said:

That is a fantasy rule of world building; if a world has a Creator being and an opposite, and that opposite being breaks the rules of an encounter, the other has to also forgo abstaining to maintain the balance in existence to keep it going.

 

This is up to the author and the world/rules/story he wishes to create.

 

We mentioned The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant above where The Creator of The Land trapped his enemy/rival in The Land and he is imprisoned there by The Arch of Time.  The Creator cannot intervene directly without breaking The Arch and freeing Lord Foul so he is forced to act indirectly by sending Covenant to assist - "if he will".

 

I haven't read The Belgariad/Mallorean for over 20 years but didn't Belgarion, a man, kill Torak, a god?  There's plenty of room in fantasy for authors to create whatever worlds and rules they want.  The only constant is our heroes will be menaced by overwhelming forces of evil/darkness and will have to save the world/the day through courage, sacrifice and choice - free will - rather than a helping hand from The Big Guy In The Sky.

 

Rand's encounter with The Dark One in AMOL gave plenty of food for thought as to his nature.

[DojoToad]

10 minutes ago, Stedding Tofu said:

 

 

I haven't read The Belgariad/Mallorean for over 20 years but didn't Belgarion, a man, kill Torak, a god?  There's plenty of room in fantasy for authors to create whatever worlds and rules they want.  The only constant is our heroes will be menaced by overwhelming forces of evil/darkness and will have to save the world/the day through courage, sacrifice and choice - free will - rather than a helping hand from The Big Guy In The Sky

Belgarion did indeed kill Torak. But he was a sorcerer, so not merely a man. And he also had the Orb of Aldur - a powerful object created by a god. So the deck wasn’t overwhelmingly stacked against him…

[WheelofJuke]

I really like the idea of Fain being trapped as the DO for this turning. And I would then see Rand as this turning's Creator. 

 

I always felt like in the end the Mashadar/Fain story thread somehow got short thrift in the way it was wrapped up almost as an afterthought.

[wotfan4472]

On 12/4/2022 at 12:26 AM, Stedding Tofu said:

 

These effects are the unravelling of threads of the pattern which is nothing less than the unravelling of  part of reality, the replacement of order and rules with chaos and, in effect, entropy,  as order turning to chaos implies the destruction of life - the pinnacle of complex organisation.

 

 

Which with this comment proves the Dark One was a being equal to the Creator. Because, all of those things I stated earlier, are not the cause of entropy and chaos. If they were, they would all be a symptom of the latter stages of their existence. None of that post shows that. I mean where is it possible for a man to have lava just come out of his head, or another man vomit insects to the point he becomes the equivalent of a floor rug?

 

If we look at Tar Valon, we are talking rooms made of stone that existed for 3000 years in the same spot since first being built, in one case abruptly being shifted to a totally new spot elsewhere in the building. As if they were built in that location instead.

 

If we were looking at a case of entropy and chaos, the room would be a pile of rubble instead, because even those obey the rules of reality; because it would be an example of time being used to age the room to that state faster than normal, which would be allowed by reality. With the room shift example, it is not doing so. 

 

The only example of entropy and chaos that is acceptable, is Leane's cell turning to wax in seconds. That is an example of what you are stating. The room shifting to a new location after 3000 years is a totally different aspect. In the case of the room shifting, it is the Dark One doing it directly, and also accelerating the physical state of Leane's cell in that instance.

 

Whichever way it is examined, it all comes back to the Dark One causing it all. After all, even Rand himself in book 14 stated that he is only doing the good things now through his taveren nature. The last bad thing his taveren nature caused was the two balcony collapses in The Gathering Storm. That there is entropy and chaos working.

Which meant that when Rand stated that, he meant the Dark One was doing the bad stuff from that point on.

 

I have a suspicion that Shaidar Haran had a hand in allowing all of that to accelerate. I mean, Moiraine at one point was surprised by how quickly those moments were developing before her fight with Lanfear. She even said outright that the seals should still be keeping the Dark One from touching that far.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 7, 2022 by wotfan4472

[Stedding Tofu]

23 hours ago, wotfan4472 said:

Which with this comment proves the Dark One was a being equal to the Creator.

 

Why, though?  As a philosophical premise it's a fair one but it's just a view not a proof.

 

23 hours ago, wotfan4472 said:

I mean where is it possible for a man to have lava just come out of his head, or another man vomit insects to the point he becomes the equivalent of a floor rug?

 

Do you think The Dark One consciously designed these things?  I think it's showing utterly and purely random chaos where literally anything, however "impossible", can happen once reality starts to unravel.

 

23 hours ago, wotfan4472 said:

Which meant that when Rand stated that, he meant the Dark One was doing the bad stuff from that point on.

 

Indirectly.  By interfering with the proper weaving of the Pattern and suppressing the normal rules of order.  What you are suggesting is that he has already won, has broken the wheel and is reshaping reality however he wants it. He never succeeds or gains that power which is why we get random chaos like Hinderstap or metal turning soft. 

 

If Aes Sedai wielding balefire can unravel the Pattern then it's not as invulnerable to those short of Godhood as we might suppose.  Not to mention that at series end Rand appears able to weave the threads of The Pattern directly and no one is speculating he is a God or The Creator made flesh (ok, except Masema).

 

On 12/3/2022 at 1:03 PM, WheelofJuke said:

I always felt like in the end the Mashadar/Fain story thread somehow got short thrift in the way it was wrapped up almost as an afterthought.

 

I agree, it's as if RJ didn't know where to go with it.  At first glance Fain is just a Gollum insert who gets a new purpose by stealing the horn in TGH. 

 

But the Mashadar thing is much more interesting as it's an evil unconnected to The Dark One.  Again on surface once Mat is freed from the dagger it seems the story has run it's course.  Until, that is, Rand works out how to cleanse saidin at which point Mashadar's story purpose seems clear and finally closed out with it being expunged along with the taint.

 

But Fain, synthesised with Mashadar turns up in Amador / The Two Rivers and at Tar Valon and Cairhien to give all of Pedron Niall, Jaret Byar, Toram Riatin and most importantly Elaida, a brush of mashadar's evil.  In turn these people should all infect others and mashadar's evil spread.

 

But that's too difficult to contain so RJ seems to quietly drop it and turbocharge Fain.  Elaida, Toram and Byar all perpetrate evil or have their worst impulses magnified but they're not contagious as Moiraine feared and constantly warned about.  Fain becomes something superhuman but remains off page with no agenda - except as a spoiler who hates Rand - and whom Mat conveniently has a silver bullet for.  It very much smacked of a loose end tied up.

Edited December 8, 2022 by Stedding Tofu
typo

[WheelofJuke]

10 hours ago, Stedding Tofu said:

But Fain, synthesised with Mashadar turns up in Amador / The Two Rivers and at Tar Valon and Cairhien to give all of Pedron Niall, Jaret Byar, Toram Riatin and most importantly Elaida, a brush of mashadar's evil.  In turn these people should all infect others and mashadar's evil spread.

 This is brilliant, and I totally missed this! 🙂

[Scarloc99]

10 hours ago, WheelofJuke said:

 This is brilliant, and I totally missed this! 🙂

So it seemed did RJ :). 

I do wonder what Fains original role in the books was intended to be when RJ sketched out the original trilogy, and what RJ considered his role was turning into as the books series grew. Was he simply a way of manipulating non dark friends against Rand, or did he serve some other purpose. Maybe in the TV show we will get a more satisfactory arc? 

[wotfan4472]

The Dark One by book 6 was touching the world directly. We heard Graendal state that the weather was caused by him directly. This happens before all the other things I typed about.

 

Before that book, it was indirect influence. After that point, however, it was direct. I never said Rand was a god. He was simply the Champion obeying the rules as instructed by the one he represented.

 

As opposed to the Dark One, that did not with Shaidar Haran's creation.  This is where Nakomi comes in. To both balance that aspect, and correct a possible shift in the web that Rand himself could not at that particular point in the story fix.

We saw that with the collaring, and that was a Shaidar Haran planned direct strike.

Edited December 9, 2022 by wotfan4472

[Stedding Tofu]

On 12/9/2022 at 11:40 AM, wotfan4472 said:

The Dark One by book 6 was touching the world directly. We heard Graendal state that the weather was caused by him directly. This happens before all the other things I typed about.

 

Before that book, it was indirect influence. After that point, however, it was direct.

 

So your view is that The Dark One specifically chose to have an individual in Altara suddenly vomit beetles?  And that as he can directly weave the threads of The Pattern how he chooses to this is what he wants to do with his power.  As in what happens in Hinderstap is by his conscious and deliberate design.

 

I don't think so.  I think he is casting a shadow over The Pattern which causes the threads to sometimes twist in bizarre ways - order into chaos - the equivalent of a ta'veren influence but the random effects are dark rather than balanced as with ta'veren's harmful / beneficial outcomes.

 

Otherwise he's just a teenager pulling morbid pranks or pulling the wings off flies here and there whenever he thinks something might be fun.  It's not very strategic either.  If he can kill someone at will with beetles or lava why not kill his most dangerous opponents ?  It seems entirely random to me.

 

He can't remake reality until he's free and he only becomes free in AMOL, at which point he is immediately engaged and defeated by Rand and sealed up again.  Before then, the weakening and broken seals allow him to influence the weather (totally unexplained) and, as more seals break, to warp reality.

 

The weather is an odd one.  It's as if The Dark One somehow stops the turning of The Wheel in respect of time passing but only in one aspect, the cycle of the seasons, time passing normally for all living things. He does it again with summer as if to preview that by destroying the wheel of time he can cause stasis.  Other than showcasing his power and malignity it shows what a possible futures with the wheel destroyed might look like.

 

My presumption is that all seven of the seals are intact until one is broken during Rand's confrontation with Ishamael at The Eye of The World. But the sequence of events is: 1) The Dark One causes winter to last for an unnaturally long time; 2) Balthamel and Aginor, who were trapped close to the surface of the bore are released as our party arrive at TEOTW; 3) Rand defeats Aginor in contending for the eye and defeats Ishamael; 4) the broken seal is found in the eye; 5) The Dark One's hold over the weather is broken and 6) the rest of The Forsaken begin appearing.

 

So the seals are strong enough to hold The Forsaken until one weakens enough to free Aginor and Balthamel - but weak enough that The Dark One's influence can reshape the weather - until Rand 's confrontation with Ishamael breaks the seal nearby and degrades the others enough for the other forsaken to break free.  I question the last as only Lanfear appears in TGH and when Rand defeats Ishamael at Falme the two seals that Turak had are both found broken: the rest of The Forsaken appear in TDR with Gaebril, Brend and Samon seizing power as if in consequence to the breaking of the second and third seals.

 

On 12/9/2022 at 11:40 AM, wotfan4472 said:

As opposed to the Dark One, that did not with Shaidar Haran's creation.  This is where Nakomi comes in. To both balance that aspect, and correct a possible shift in the web that Rand himself could not at that particular point in the story fix.

 

I understand this works fine for you as balance but it doesn't for me for the reasons I've outlined, most significantly RJ's only Nakomi scene being one in which she was neither named nor even identifiable.  For me the story works better without her.

[wotfan4472]

Yes. He would just decide to force a man to vomit beetles. He would also force a man to pour lava out of his head. For the exact same reasons he sent Ishamael 3000 years before to free LTT of the taint.

His motives were and are, to torment people, and break them if his torments can do it.

[Stedding Tofu]

13 hours ago, wotfan4472 said:

Yes. He would just decide to force a man to vomit beetles.

 

Pulling the wings off flies, then.  No wonder he always loses if his grasp of strategy is so poor.  Better to destroy dangerous enemies with his unlimited control over The Pattern than random individuals.  But he's not free and doesn't have power to act like this. 

 

Why soften metal around Andor as shown in the prologue to AMOL?  What does this temporary and bizarre phenomenon achieve?  If, as it might have done, it removed the ability of humanity to field armies or even use metal utensils - we see a tent collapse as the tent pegs soften - it would have been a strategic and catastrophic blow equivalent to the taint.  But no, it's random stuff happening.  The taint, now, shows strategy and purpose but was only possible because Lews Therin touched his essence directly with saidin while sealing him in the bore.

 

He's still sealed away (imperfectly) but it's interesting to note we have no stories of lava, beetles, softening metal or Hinderstaps from The War of Power when he was loose (or memories from Lews Therin for Rand to helpfully recall).  It's only conjecture but I don't think he could do this stuff then because The Wheel was not broken and was still weaving The Pattern (just as it is now) but the random stuff in this Age is to up the ante of chaos and act as harbingers of doom - I mean Book 6 is actually called Lord of Chaos and Demandred is enjoined to "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule".  It's how it plays out this time but while the wheel is intact he can't weave the threads of the pattern himself but casts a shadow over it that interferes with it's weaving.

[Scarloc99]

16 hours ago, wotfan4472 said:

Yes. He would just decide to force a man to vomit beetles. He would also force a man to pour lava out of his head. For the exact same reasons he sent Ishamael 3000 years before to free LTT of the taint.

His motives were and are, to torment people, and break them if his torments can do it.

if this works for you then fair enough but if this is the case of the story and is what Robert Jordan intended then for me it makes me suddenly feel far far worse about Robert Jordan as a writer. This is the issue with "research pieces" like this book, especially after the author has died. It is the reason I have read none of Christopher Tolkiens works about the writing of Lord of the Rings. The fact that Nakomi was a Brandon Sanderson character (something that keeps getting ignored) and NOT a Robert Jordan character, and is based on tiny amounts Robert Jordan had in his notes and part of the epilogue makes me feel more and more that Brandon is trying to retrospectively explain away something that actually narratively is lazy writing. An old women comes out of nowhere to make sure Avihenda does what she needs to do. 

The Community has, in the intervening 13 years, talked about this character and so rather then admit that "I needed a reason to get Avihenda to this point, and I wanted to hint that maybe the Jenn Aiel still exist somewhere so I left it open" Brandon instead tries to explain it away as some deep planned out thing. 

What we are saying is that with this one reveal the rules of the world have changed, we suddenly remove any fictional idea of free will in the world for anyone who is linked to the final battle. if Rand goes wrong the Creators Avatar will correct the path, the Dark one can choose to interact with anyone but because of "plot armour" wont mess with the key characters in the final battle. Suddenly you pick huge holes in all of RJ. 

But I will also add that Brandon Sanderson has himself now changed his idea on this. 

Lifted from 
https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/110059/do-we-know-who-is-the-voice-in-rands-head-in-the-eye-of-the-world

 

Quote

TLDR; According to Sanderson, while we may speculate, it appears that RJ intended for us to go insane. There is no answer.

QUESTION

The Dark One seems to be conscious and aware of the events in the world. Is the Creator also conscious of world events?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Brandon said that's left up to the reader. He then said that many people think the voice in all caps in The Eye of the World is the Creator, which might indicate the Creator was, but stated it really wasn't known even in-world. (paraphrased from interview)

-Wheel of Time Interview Database, "The Voice" #8

It looks like Jordan never released this tidbit of info even to his crew, as in this interview, 1 month after the last books release Sanderson changes from RAFO to essentially "I dont know."

a few days later we get this:

QUESTION

Did the Creator speak in ALL CAPS at least once or twice?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The same voice spoke in all caps in the series.

-Wheel of Time Interview Database, "The Voice" #140

Makes us assume that the any voice in all caps is the Dark One.

QUESTION

So, at the end of The Eye of the World, the all caps voice? Will we ever find out who it was, or what they were looking for?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The all caps voice at the end of Eye of the World makes an appearance in A Memory of Light.

-Wheel of Time Interview Database, "The Voice" #148

This brings us to a voice in all caps in AMOL.

IT IS TIME. LET THE TASK BE UNDERTAKEN.

The voice spoke with the inevitability of an earthquake, the words vibrating through him. More than sound in the air, far more, the words spoke as if from one soul to another. Moiraine gasped, eyes opening wide.

Rand was not surprised. He had heard this voice once before, and he realized that he had been expecting it. Hoping for it, at least. “Thank you,” Rand whispered, then stepped forward into the Dark One’s realm, leaving footprints of blood behind.

So in a mater of 2 weeks, Sanderson states that in-world we never truly know who the voice was, that the same voice that speaks in caps throughout the whole series, and finally that the voice that spoke in the EotW, also appears in AMoL. This leaves us with a completely unclear answer, and unless he or others decides to clarify we will never know.

Finally:

JAMES STARKE Is Nakomi the person that Rand encountered at the mouth of Shayol Ghul? And is she the embodiment of The Creator?

BRANDON SANDERSON

This is one that I'm not answering, I'm afraid. RJ wanted some things about the ending to remain ambiguous.

Did we ever meet the Creator in the series? If so, who?

BRANDON SANDERSON

I'll preface this with a warning. Even though the series is done, and I can speak more freely, some things are intended to be vague by RJ's own intention. This allows dreaming and thinking about the world to continue. For example, I can't answer question 2 for these reasons. For question one, I think RJ himself was vague. (Maybe a Theorylander can speak here.) This isn't one I'm capable of answering, because I don't want to make an answer canon one way or another, as I don't think RJ wanted that.

-Wheel of Time Interview Database, "Creator" # 103 from 2014

So First of all Brandon decided to go against his own arguments for leaving these things mysterious, but then also contradicts himself. 

I personally feel that while Brandon ended the series and I will forever be grateful for that, the fact is that it is pointless trying to marry up the choices Robert Jordan made and the threads he left and assume Brandons decisions where in reality what RJ would have done. I know Brandon had the support of the WOT Team in terms of editing etc but, and this is really important, as an author he was making up alot of this as he went, otherwise no author would have been needed and the WOT team could have just finished the books off themselves. He never talked to RJ himself, and we know that the detailed notes RJ gave where incomplete at the end of his life. Anything Brandon has done, like Nakomi, is entirely his work and decision and any attempt he has made to interpret RJs notes is always going to be with a degree of error as to the true choice. Especially when RJ would have no doubt changed his mind on many things as he wrote. His writing style was reactive, in that he put characters in situations and then work out how they would react, what they would say and how they would get themselves out of it with the tools they had. There is no way Brandon can have truly known how RJ would end the series other then the vast broad strokes that he detailed out. 

 

Edited December 12, 2022 by Sir_Charrid

[Elder_Haman]

On 12/2/2022 at 6:28 AM, wotfan4472 said:

That is where you are wrong. The Dark One is not below the Creator, he is the equal being.

In order to achieve balance, Creation has to have its opposite - Destruction. Order vs. Entropy.

So the Creator is greater - in a sense - in that the Dark One cannot create. He can use and refashion what the Creator made, but can create nothing on his own. But the Dark One is greater - in a sense - in that he is able to destroy Creation, something the Creator is incapable of.

 

On 12/3/2022 at 3:26 AM, Stedding Tofu said:

The Creator made the Wheel and the World(s) and sealed The Dark One away from his creations which suggests an inferior

The fact of the Dark One being sealed inside of the Creator's creation implies that the Dark One's presence is necessary to the existence of Creation and the sealing implies that the Dark One's inherent power is sufficient, absent proper containment, to nullify all of creation which implies power equivalent to the Creator.

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

In order to achieve balance, Creation has to have its opposite - Destruction. Order vs. Entropy.

So the Creator is greater - in a sense - in that the Dark One cannot create. He can use and refashion what the Creator made, but can create nothing on his own. But the Dark One is greater - in a sense - in that he is able to destroy Creation, something the Creator is incapable of.

 

The fact of the Dark One being sealed inside of the Creator's creation implies that the Dark One's presence is necessary to the existence of Creation and the sealing implies that the Dark One's inherent power is sufficient, absent proper containment, to nullify all of creation which implies power equivalent to the Creator.

Applying the laws of physics in our world is always dangerous when you get to high fantays, because Magic looks at that rule book and says, “hold my beer” 

 

The true source is a force of magic, and allows things to happen that go against the laws of physics. Energy can be created at will. The Source is not running out it is permanent, it has been running since the start of time and will run forever. RJ backed this up about his world when he said there would be no heat death of the sun. If the one source ignores the laws of entropy then the laws of physics as we know them are out the window entirely. 

[Elder_Haman]

43 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

The true source is a force of magic, and allows things to happen that go against the laws of physics. Energy can be created at will. The Source is not running out it is permanent, it has been running since the start of time and will run forever. RJ backed this up about his world when he said there would be no heat death of the sun. If the one source ignores the laws of entropy then the laws of physics as we know them are out the window entirely.

Correct. But this magic system was created by The Creator. And the presence of the Dark One is necessary for the Creator's system to function. It's nothing to do with physics, per se.

[Scarloc99]

42 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Correct. But this magic system was created by The Creator. And the presence of the Dark One is necessary for the Creator's system to function. It's nothing to do with physics, per se.

If there are laws of physics in the universe and the creator exists in the universe then he is bound by his own laws, if he lives outside the universe then he can’t influence his creation in any way. That is one of the fundamental philosophical truths of a universe that follows the laws of physics as we see them. 
 

If Randland exists in our universe with our physical laws then the one power is a finite source of energy that will eventually run out. How it was created does not matter, the fact is it would have been made at the point of creation and will then eventually cease to exist. If the one power is infinite then we accept the laws of the universe do not follow our physical rules and therefore applying ideas of entropy become mute. 
 

But I will also say trying to argue the rules of a world when it’s creator (RJ) is not around to agree or disagree, or as is more likely from talking to other fantasy authors to say “I really didn’t consider it as deeply as all that, I just though the one power sounded like a really cool idea, as I did a multiverse, and a dream land, and people who talk to wolves, and so on and so on.” Is a fruitless exercise. 
 

Authors who care about the science of things tend to end up writing science fiction and not high fantasy :). 
 

It brings to mind a literature professor who ran an entire class on the symbolism of a blue cup in a piece of writing. On finally meeting the author he asked about the cup, only

to be told. “Oh that, I was drinking tea from a blue cup as I was writing that scene and, seeking a color for the cup I just took what was in my hand”. 

Edited December 12, 2022 by Sir_Charrid

[Elder_Haman]

I'm confused as to whether we are actually debating anything or agreeing with one another. Lol.

[SinisterDeath]

Just now, Elder_Haman said:

I'm confused as to whether we are actually debating anything or agreeing with one another. Lol.

Yes

[Scarloc99]

I will still say that for me it would have been far far better if ultimately we had discovered that there was no Creator, or the creator was entirely absent having moved on, I think it is one of the weakest aspects of the book and the fact the character only appears twice makes me feel that RJ after eye of the world moved away from the idea and possibly BS adding it in is not something RJ would have done in the end. It adds nothing to the story. 

[Scarloc99]

10 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I'm confused as to whether we are actually debating anything or agreeing with one another. Lol.

Lol we might be having 2 different conversations 🙂 but I am enjoying the debate, you had mentioned entropy and how it shows the dark one and the creator are not equal. I was trying to say that equating a physical law in a world that shows it does not obey the laws of physics as we see them, and that fact being backed up by things RJ has said in the past, is shaky at best. 
 

For me where the creator and dark one sit isn’t important. If they are actually a creator and a dark one or just 2 powerful being that exist on the universe doesn’t matter. RJs style is that the reader knows only what the characters do, everything is presented from their perspective, no sneak understandings from a different voice and no breaking the 4th wall, so debating the nature of existence in randland can get shaky anyway because main characters don’t know the truth. 
 

The creator idea is interesting through, because there is no concept of a heaven or hell and the Creators only influence on the world seems to be to ensure the dark one never escapes his prison it does make me wonder if Randland has been entirely created to simply be the dark ones prison cell and every person in the weave for Randland is just part of that jail system. I can imagine an entire universe of free willed individuals who are exempt from the tapestry of the wheel of time there freedom paid for by the souls bound to the wheel, forever destined to fight the same battle over and over again. 
 

But as an Athiest myself I totally accept that my personal feelings colour how I read the book.

Edited December 12, 2022 by Sir_Charrid

[SinisterDeath]

17 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I will still say that for me it would have been far far better if ultimately we had discovered that there was no Creator, or the creator was entirely absent having moved on, I think it is one of the weakest aspects of the book and the fact the character only appears twice makes me feel that RJ after eye of the world moved away from the idea and possibly BS adding it in is not something RJ would have done in the end. It adds nothing to the story. 

 

I'm not convinced that the "Creator" in WoT is a sentient entity.

I'm of the mind that the creator is a non sentient universal force that represents order and fuels the "wheel".

 

That "Rand" during the last battle IS the story that the creator bound the DO at the moment of creation... After all there is NO beginning within the wheel of time.