Noticed a Plot Hole Concerning Compulsion (The Shadow Rising, Chapter 47)

[Red Eagle]

Was listening to The Shadow Rising again on Audible, when I noticed this,

The scene in the tavern where the innkeeper comes in and tells Elayne & Nyneave a handsome, middle-aged woman gave their descriptions and asked if they were present. Elayne & Nyneave were attacked by would-be kidnappers in the previous scene, and fearing the inquiring woman might be one of the Black Ajah members they're hunting in Tanchico, Elayne embraces Saidar prior to the woman entering the common room.

 

Note that as the woman is entering, Elayne is actively channeling flows of the Power in preparation for the possibility of conflict. Moghedien enters the room, the glow of Saidar visibly surrounds here, then Elayne releases the power, and both she and Nyneave are all agreeable smiles. 

 

Compulsion in use, obviously. Moghedien outright says as much. 

 

Problem: We are told in Chapter 6 of Lord of Chaos that, "Holding the Power prevents one from being subjected to Compulsion."

 

The WoT Wiki cites a number of additional places where this "fact" is reiterated. 

 

What I'm wondering is if this early display of Compulsion in use precedes Jordan's visualizing the complete bounds of this weave, or if it simply slipped his mind. It was something of a reveal as to how Moghedien handles herself, so I wonder if he got so caught up in bringing into the light something that had been firmly handled offscreen up to this point, that it simply didn't occur to RJ that, by the rules he would later have more than one character announce as a metaphysical absolute, Moghedien's weave should have bounced right off Elayne. 

 

Now, I can already hear someone object, "Wait! Elayne released Saidar, THEN the Spider sauntered over and began interrogating her and Nyneave. Surely this means that Elayne rendered herself vulnerable?" 

 

I would respond by asking the immediate context of Elayne's thoughts and actions in the moment literally prior to her releasing Saidar. She was literally in mid-weave of "great, cable-thick strands of Air and Spirit." She was preparing to act the split-second the woman entering made a wrong move. I think it's therefore incontrovertible that Elayne was induced to release Saidar, by Moghedien. 

 

Thoughts?

[wotfan4472]

It is not a plot hole.   

 

Moghedien was simply holding saidar and masking it before she entered the room, and the weaves she wove were not embracing the source, but channelling extremely powerful weaves of compulsion.

 

Levels of compulsion that were vast enough to ensnare Elayne and Nyneave both even if they held saidar themselves. The weaves were not distinct in that scene, because Elayne, and Nyneave especially, did not have the knowledge to understand what was being done to them.

 

It is the first example in the books of masked ability and detection of channelling actually being used by a masked wielder, in the presence of people that should see both the ability and the channelling.

 

 

[Red Eagle]

OK,

I'm interested in tracing the evolution of how the One Power being some kind of immunizing agent against Compulsion was incrementally revealed. 

 

Any idea where you came by the information that lead you to that conclusion, @wotfan4472?

Not trying to be anal and expect a Book/Chapter/Page. A brief mention of the scene/conversation would be fine. I'm willing to do the legwork myself. 

 

Thanks in advance 🙂

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

Even if the general rule is that simply holding the power is enough protection (and I do not recall any blatant statement in the books) it may be the case that Moghedien has a particular talent in this area allowing her to transcend that limit.   Certainly she appears to be the most skilled of the forsaken in this area - compared to Graendal who generally uses it as a sledgehammer or Rhavin who mostly uses it for his "seduction" of women (when he tries to use it long term and with some subtlety on Morgase she regularly slips his control).  We have other examples of chanellers with particular aptitude for one weave doing things others cannot (e.g. Androl and his skills with traveling allowing him to make tiny gateways or ones which form much quicker than other peoples, the Kinswoman skilled at holding a shield or any number spoken of as more skilled with healing).

[Guest Cranglevoid]

Nice find, and likely a minor plot hole. Of course, people will just make up different excuses to claim it's not, but it is what it is.

[wotfan4472]

On 9/3/2022 at 6:31 PM, Red Eagle said:

OK,

I'm interested in tracing the evolution of how the One Power being some kind of immunizing agent against Compulsion was incrementally revealed. 

 

Any idea where you came by the information that lead you to that conclusion, @wotfan4472?

Not trying to be anal and expect a Book/Chapter/Page. A brief mention of the scene/conversation would be fine. I'm willing to do the legwork myself. 

 

Thanks in advance 🙂

It is simply something I realised with a reread. I initially thought the same as you. The One Power does protect against Compulsion. However, Moghedien and Graendal are better in compulsion because of their training, and in Graendal's case, being a psychologist, and their tasks once they turned to the Shadow. Meaning, both of these characters have particular abilities and skills to bypass the protections that holding the One Power grants. Remember, no Aes Sedai knows Compulsion extensively, and even the Black Ajah are limited in their use of it.

 

Then, you add in Alanna literally stating that she tried to use her bond with Rand to compel him to obey her, and it did not work, whether or not he was holding saidin. Which brings in the second defence.

 

Strength of will can protect against compulsion.

 

Except, Moghedien knew of a way to bypass that defence that Graendal never used. She could manipulate the character to misplace that will to a different focus, like she did with Liandrin. This technique requires prior knowledge of the character beforehand, and something she would do easily, being the equivalent of an intelligence agent, or a professional spy.

As opposed to Graendal, whom simply destroyed the mind, like she did to that poor boy in The Gathering Storm.

Rahvin is equivalent to these two characters. His use of Compulsion follows the same logic, and so Morgase's moments show that mental defence I spoke about. It seems that Rahvin had no knowledge of how to defeat such a suspicious mind. The other two Forsaken however, knew how to.

 

 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

11 hours ago, wotfan4472 said:

Then, you add in Alanna literally stating that she tried to use her bond with Rand to compel him to obey her, and it did not work, whether or not he was holding saidin. Which brings in the second defence.

 

Strength of will can protect against compulsion.

This appears to simply apply to use of the warder bond to compel obedience (not the compulsion weave which is different but close enough that some sisters are repelled by the idea of using the bond for this)  and appears to apply to all bonded men who can channel (that bonds made by men who channel to women who can channel do still allow them to compel is a distinction that will probably not remain in the show).   Those who bonded ash'aman appear to discuss this in the later books.

[wotfan4472]

Yes, however there is an indication that the Warder bond possesses an element of Compulsion.

[Sabio]

Force of will probably won't make you immune, but makes it more likely you can fight against it even if you have no idea what is going on.  Perin still has a love for Lanfear even though he was able to break free of her compulsion.  Morgase kept breaking free of Rhavin.  But the more compulsion used makes it harder to resist or break free.  It's constantly mentioned how Graendal  uses so much compulsion it makes the person worthless for anything else.

 

I couldn't find anything in the Companion that says holding the power makes one immune to compulsion.  I always took it as the strength and skill of the one trying to use it vs how much power the target is holding.   Elayne and Nyn had no skill or experience to protect against compulsion.  We know how skilled someone is at forming a weave goes along way

 

 

[wotfan4472]

You are correct Sabio that the Companion does not mention holding the One Power renders one immune to Compulsion. It is mentioned in the books.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

12 hours ago, wotfan4472 said:

You are correct Sabio that the Companion does not mention holding the One Power renders one immune to Compulsion. It is mentioned in the books.

What I find in the books is the precise opposite - specific occasions where a point of view character holding the power begins to feel the effects of compulsion - e.g. Aviendha at the last battle begins to get this from Graendal until the weave is reversed by the release of a partially unraveled traveling weave and puts compulsion on Graendal instead.  The mere ability to channel (not holding the power) makes a male channeller immune to being compelled by the warder bond used by an Aes Sedai which is a totally different thing from the compulsion weave.  Can you quote any occasion where compulsion failed without the weave being interfered with?

[wotfan4472]

The Warder bond has a related aspect to Compulsion.

That is how Moiraine sent Lan off when his bond to her broke. Warders can resist the commands given in that manner, it is just that their minds will be broken, because the command will be followed. All Aes Sedai have that capability in their bonds. They do not like to use that aspect, because to them it is Compulsion.

 

Only Ashaman cannot be ordered that way. Basic immunity to Compulsion is a thing that saidin has, because of the steps it takes to embrace, and use it.

Saidar requires surrender, so they are vulnerable to Compulsion, like what happened in that scene with Elayne and Nyneave. There are Aes Sedai that comment on that weakness. 

 

Saidin requires struggle, and it is this that confers the basic immunity. No Ashaman would have been controlled in that fashion while holding saidin, and as a side effect, have the will power of the mind to resist Compulsion without it, because of their training.

 

Those are the basic rules of the One Power regarding Compulsion. 

 

 

[exegete]

On 9/2/2022 at 9:19 PM, Red Eagle said:

Problem: We are told in Chapter 6 of Lord of Chaos that, "Holding the Power prevents one from being subjected to Compulsion."

 

The WoT Wiki cites a number of additional places where this "fact" is reiterated. 

 

The simple solution to the problem is that we are never told any such thing.  The words quoted do not appear in the books.

 

The relevant quote appears to be from Sammael's perspective, as he thinks of Graendal (LOC Ch 6):

 

Quote

She used Compulsion so often like a hammer that one might forget that she could wield the weaker forms of it with great delicacy, twisting a mind's path so subtly that even the closest examination might miss every trace of her. In fact, she might have been the best at that who ever lived.

 

He let the gateway vanish but held on to saidin; her tricks would not work on a man wrapped in the Source. ... There was no way she could know he still grasped saidin, but she smiled briefly into her goblet as if she did.

 

All that tells us is that Sammael believed that Graendal's "tricks" — which might have been the "weaker forms" she wields with "great delicacy" — "would not work" on him while he holds saidin. Whether that is interpreted as a narrow statement of Sammael's belief about his own capacity to resist Graendal's "tricks" in the particular circumstances, or as a broad and absolute proposition about all saidin-holding channellers resisting all forms of compulsion in all circumstances, it does not say anything about Elayne's capacity to resist Moghedien's compulsion.

 

What the Forsaken think also cannot be taken as gospel in any event, as shown by Sammael's ignorance in the last sentence. He believed there was "no way" Graendal could know he still grasped saidin, but of course there are ter'angreal that enable a female channeler to do just that, including the one possessed by Nynaeve (ring set with a pale green stone, KOD Ch 27). Nacelle Sedai even demonstrated a new weave of saidar by which she was able to detect Narishma holding saidin (KOD Ch 23).

 

Returning to the original quote, later in the same book, we get Graendal's perspective when she visits Sammael (LOC Ch 23):

 

Quote

Sammael must have had the promise[of Nae'blis from the Great Lord]. If he died now. . . . He was certainly holding saidin—he would be mad to say these things otherwise—and he would feel the instant she embraced saidar. She would be the one to die. He must have had it.

 

It may simply be that Sammael believed Graendal's "tricks" would not work against him while he grasped saidin because he knew he would feel the instant she embraced saidar, and he knew she knew that too.

 

Edited October 7, 2022 by exegete

[Jsbrads2]

exegete He may have literally wrapped himself in Saidin, hold a weave blocking her from reaching his brain 🤷 Also when he said she wouldn’t know if he held onto Saidin, he must have presumed she didn’t have a terangreal, he was thinking in natural terms, women can’t sense men, but he can sense her and thus defend himself. 
 

There is no reason why just embracing the source would be enough. Moraine asks Rand to embrace the source so that some of the energy of healing will come from the source. Healing is also intimate and could flow thru the head.