Expanded Moraine & Lan in S2

[Deviations]

Rafe's twitter fireside chat indicated they were not letting these two 'great actors' sit on the sidelines in season 2.  I'm sure everyone can guess that I'm not pleased because that means less of the original story and more of them filling in the blanks with their story.  Not something I think they've done well so far.

 

With that out of the way, what story lines do you anticipate them fleshing out?  Moraine learning about Tam's background and other action referenced by Jordan or storylines newly created for the series?

[DojoToad]

I anticipate them filling out anything not directly from the books.

[Skipp]

I think they will focus on Moraine trying to figure out how to remove the shield on her and either this season or next will need Siuan to remove it as she is good at untangling knots.  I think they will blend that into her original story from tGH.  Possibly replace the characters of Vandene and Adeleas with Verin.  Eventually they will meet up with Rand in Cairhien  before heading to Falme.

 

In my opinion when the showrunners veered away from the books the show really excelled.  Episodes 4, 5 and 6 being my favourites closely followed by 3.

[WhiteVeils]

They have already set up things for Moiraine and Lan to do and they have a plot already available that is in the books but occurred off screen there.  We only see the aftermath.  I imagine we will see it put on the screen here.  They've done the setup for it.

 

1. In the books, Moiraine knows about the seals of the Dark One's prison already, and has a good idea about the Foresaken and what actually happened at the Eye of the World. In the show, she does not really know much about Ishamael, or the seals, or the prophecies about the Last Battle and the return of the Dragon.  She only knows a little.  She will go to someone (Likely Adeleas and Vandene, but maybe Verin or maybe the library at Cairhien) to learn more.  This lets her research explain to us, the viewer, a little more setup instead of all the exposition at once.

2. In the books, Moiraine set up Lan's bond to move to Myrelle before The Great Hunt.  In the show, something will happen that, combined with what happened to Steppin in S1, will make Moiraine realize that her current course of action will likely kill her, and that she does not want Lan to die because she does.  She wants his bond to move to Nynaeve, but Nynaeve is not there and Accepted can't have warders anyway.  During her time researching, or before or after, an event happens, like an attack, that really rubs it in, and this happens before or during a time when Alanna and her warders are with Lan and Moiraine. Moiraine conspires with Alanna to move the bond to Alanna in case of her death.  There is considerable suspense during the season about whether or not he will find out.

3. Moiraine wants her powers back. In her research or because Alanna makes clear that Lan is still alive (and if she had been stilled, Lan would have gone mad - per the books), she knows she's been shielded, not stilled.  That shielding must have been with Saidin.  She does not know how to fix the shield, but she knows Rand can at least see it, so he could try.  She meets up with Rand. He can see the shield, but maybe can't fix it, so she writes to Siuan asking for help with it in Tear.  The shield may not even be resolved before the end of the season, though it will be a subplot.

 

 

Anyway, that's my idea for a setup.

[Skipp]

5 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

They have already set up things for Moiraine and Lan to do and they have a plot already available that is in the books but occurred off screen there.  We only see the aftermath.  I imagine we will see it put on the screen here.  They've done the setup for it.

 

1. In the books, Moiraine knows about the seals of the Dark One's prison already, and has a good idea about the Foresaken and what actually happened at the Eye of the World. In the show, she does not really know much about Ishamael, or the seals, or the prophecies about the Last Battle and the return of the Dragon.  She only knows a little.  She will go to someone (Likely Adeleas and Vandene, but maybe Verin or maybe the library at Cairhien) to learn more.  This lets her research explain to us, the viewer, a little more setup instead of all the exposition at once.

2. In the books, Moiraine set up Lan's bond to move to Myrelle before The Great Hunt.  In the show, something will happen that, combined with what happened to Steppin in S1, will make Moiraine realize that her current course of action will likely kill her, and that she does not want Lan to die because she does.  She wants his bond to move to Nynaeve, but Nynaeve is not there and Accepted can't have warders anyway.  During her time researching, or before or after, an event happens, like an attack, that really rubs it in, and this happens before or during a time when Alanna and her warders are with Lan and Moiraine. Moiraine conspires with Alanna to move the bond to Alanna in case of her death.  There is considerable suspense during the season about whether or not he will find out.

3. Moiraine wants her powers back. In her research or because Alanna makes clear that Lan is still alive (and if she had been stilled, Lan would have gone mad - per the books), she knows she's been shielded, not stilled.  That shielding must have been with Saidin.  She does not know how to fix the shield, but she knows Rand can at least see it, so he could try.  She meets up with Rand. He can see the shield, but maybe can't fix it, so she writes to Siuan asking for help with it in Tear.  The shield may not even be resolved before the end of the season, though it will be a subplot.

 

 

Anyway, that's my idea for a setup.

Very nice, I love the idea of meeting up with Rand specifically because he would be able to see weaves of the tied off shield.

[Nik]

I also expect them to meet up with Rand no later than halfway through the season, leaving them 3ish episodes for a research montage of Moiraine learning about the Forsaken, figuring out her shield and how to pass Lan's bond. I also suspect they'll tie her backstory more closely to all the Damodred drama: Laman's sin, the Aiel war, Tigraine's disappearance and subsequent succession war with Galas and Taringail and Damodred family caught up in it, tying it all to the Trakands, also tying it back to Barthanes and Galldrian and the civil war... There are a lot of dots only waiting to be connected.

[WhiteVeils]

Agreed. It's not that hard to connect the dots if you do it right.  You don't need all of Tigraine's stuff here,  but there's a fair bit we can learn.

[Skipp]

As Nik mentioned I wonder how much they will explore the Damodred aspect of Moiraine.  Whether they will explore the link with Galad and in turn eventually explore that link with Rand.

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, Skipp said:

As Nik mentioned I wonder how much they will explore the Damodred aspect of Moiraine.  Whether they will explore the link with Galad and in turn eventually explore that link with Rand.

Always thought it odd that this wasn’t explored more in the books. Could be cool

[A Memory Of Why]

I still think compulsion was used with the shield to make her believe she was stilled.

 

Which would make two weaves she's got to deal with on top of compelled denial.

 

She doesn't do much power wise till the end of TDR which gives her a season and a bit maybe to sort it.

[DojoToad]

14 hours ago, A Memory Of Why said:

I still think compulsion was used with the shield to make her believe she was stilled.

 

Which would make two weaves she's got to deal with on top of compelled denial.

 

She doesn't do much power wise till the end of TDR which gives her a season and a bit maybe to sort it.

I think we heard about stilling and burning out fairly early on in the books, but not much about compulsion until later on.  Could be an improvement...

[WhiteVeils]

We first learn of Compulsion in The Dragon Reborn when it is used in Tear on the Wonder Girls.  So there's certainly  a chance we see it in S2.  I think overall we'll get a lot more explanation about the power this season...not everything, but more.  That's why we will see colors in the threads this season...Egwene and Nynaeve are actually learning about the different elements.

[A Memory Of Why]

I don't remember the girls getting compelled in TDR, they get beaten, shielded and put in a cell..

 

I think the first on-screen use is TSR with Moggy in Tanchico. Although what Ballsy did at the darkfriend gathering in.. TGH I think, could have been compulsion. Though I'm inclined to say that was some sort of dream shannannigans.

 

Back to Moraine, it feels like more than a shield to me. Unless they're changing the mechanics, there's different symptoms for shielding and stilling. And Ballsy basically tells her she's stilled which covers the verbal commands we see with one form of compulsion (e.g. Moggy in Tanchico).

[Nik]

The first use of compulsion (though a less effective type) is Liandrin using her "trick" on Amalisa in TGH. Next is Liandrin using it on Juilin in TDR (offscreen, but we see the effects). There's also Rahvin and Morgase in TDR but we might not know at that point that it's compulsion yet.

[DojoToad]

On 8/13/2022 at 11:31 AM, WhiteVeils said:

We first learn of Compulsion in The Dragon Reborn when it is used in Tear on the Wonder Girls.  So there's certainly  a chance we see it in S2.  I think overall we'll get a lot more explanation about the power this season...not everything, but more.  That's why we will see colors in the threads this season...Egwene and Nynaeve are actually learning about the different elements.

Are we going to get a training montage...  🤣

[WhiteVeils]

Maybe...?

[ForsakenPotato]

I think it's possible Moiraine is actually stilled, and will remain that way until either the end. If done well that would actually be a good thing, as it makes the forsaken a lot more threatening if we're given an early example of them doing substantial harm to our main characters rather than just being incompetent.

 

It would also emphasize that most of her character's importance isn't related to her channeling anyway, it's her guidance to Rand and the knowledge that she's been gathering over the years about the dragon. There's certainly a lot of things that would need to be changed if that's the direction they go with it, and I know there's general discomfort with the ripple effects those changes might cause in the plot, but I think it could work.

 

And the bond passing with Lan could be done differently in a variety of ways without it really causing problems -- the important thing is we want him to end up with Nyneave and there's a while where it seems dicey.

 

Direction I could see it going that I'd be less happy with:

- Moiraine is stilled but gets healed by Nyneave. Feels too early to introduce/too easy, would rather have them save that moment for Logain

- Moiraine is not stilled and we spend all season on a long (and irrelevant to the other main characters) roadtrip to fix it for most of season 2

- Moiraine is stilled but it's not that traumatic and she continues as is just without channeling. Stilling in the books is really rough (esp when we see it through that character's POV) and it won't seem as scary if it's easier in the show. I think Mo could pull through with the knowledge that she still needs to help the dragon reborn or all is lost, but it needs to actually be HARD. She and Lan need to lose some composure for a bit.

[WhiteVeils]

17 minutes ago, ForsakenPotato said:

I think it's possible Moiraine is actually stilled, and will remain that way until either the end. If done well that would actually be a good thing, as it makes the forsaken a lot more threatening if we're given an early example of them doing substantial harm to our main characters rather than just being incompetent.

 

It would also emphasize that most of her character's importance isn't related to her channeling anyway, it's her guidance to Rand and the knowledge that she's been gathering over the years about the dragon. There's certainly a lot of things that would need to be changed if that's the direction they go with it, and I know there's general discomfort with the ripple effects those changes might cause in the plot, but I think it could work.

 

And the bond passing with Lan could be done differently in a variety of ways without it really causing problems -- the important thing is we want him to end up with Nyneave and there's a while where it seems dicey.

 

Direction I could see it going that I'd be less happy with:

- Moiraine is stilled but gets healed by Nyneave. Feels too early to introduce/too easy, would rather have them save that moment for Logain

- Moiraine is not stilled and we spend all season on a long (and irrelevant to the other main characters) roadtrip to fix it for most of season 2

- Moiraine is stilled but it's not that traumatic and she continues as is just without channeling. Stilling in the books is really rough (esp when we see it through that character's POV) and it won't seem as scary if it's easier in the show. I think Mo could pull through with the knowledge that she still needs to help the dragon reborn or all is lost, but it needs to actually be HARD. She and Lan need to lose some composure for a bit.

- Moiraine is not stilled but is shielded, but fixing it is not her priority.  She spends her time researching and learning about the Dark One and developing the relationship with Lan, with a focus on deciding what to do if she dies, until she meets up with Rand again and realizes that Rand can help her.

- Moiraine is not stilled but is shielded, but realizes while researching the Foresaken that the shield was placed by a man, and therefore a man who can channel can help her remove the shield, and seeks out Rand to do so.

[Nik]

I don't think Moiraine is stilled because that *looked* like a shield, and also because it's too early to heal stilling. A shield, however, is something we've already been introduced to via Logain, and understanding the mechanics of untying a tied-off weave could come in very handy to explain later plot points. Particularly to help us understand how Rand breaks out of his shield at Dumai's Wells. I have two candidates for untying Moiraine's shield:

 

- Rand. The shield was put on by a man so it requires a man to untie it. This allows Rand to learn how to untie a shield so he can do it again for himself later.

 

- Siuan. She was specifically shown to untie knots with the One Power in episode 6, and then we see her still practicing her knots in her bedroom like her father had told her to. She can't see saidin weaves, but it's possible to untie a knot you can't see just by feeling for it. Showing us this would also be foreshadowing for Rand untying the saidar knots on his shield later on.

 

As a bonus, if Siuan does it, she might get caught meeting up with Moiraine and that precipitates the coup...

[Deviations]

Quite a lot here that makes sense and may be interesting to watch.  It's certainly not the story I wanted, but it seems like the story I'm going to get.

[DojoToad]

Will be interested to see how much more changes.  Probably going to be a lot further from the books - some folks will be okay with that, others won't.

 

Given Amazon limits on season length, even if they attempted to stay close to the books there absolutely would have been plenty left out - and that was without the new stuff added by RJ2.

 

I didn't like a lot of stuff RJ2 changed.  But now I'm beginning to think that even had he done it the way I wanted (more in line with the books), he wouldn't have been able to pull it off well.

 

Then again, LotR (movies) stayed fairly true but had major cuts/changes - and I loved it.  So I'm not a purist, I can live with change.  Guess I just have to like it - which is what it comes down to for all of us in the end...

 

S1 wasn't for me.  Still hoping S2 will be, but not holding my breath (well, maybe a little bit 😁)

Edited August 16, 2022 by DojoToad

[Deviations]

[holger]

On 8/16/2022 at 6:04 AM, Nik said:

I don't think Moiraine is stilled because that *looked* like a shield, and also because it's too early to heal stilling.

[...]

As a bonus, if Siuan does it, she might get caught meeting up with Moiraine and that precipitates the coup...

I agree that the early part of the scene definitely looks like a shield, but to me the later part, with tight saidin weaves flowing into Moiraine, and Moiraine being in pain, looks more like gentling/stilling to me. It is not how I expect tying off a weave to look like. So perhaps a shield first to prevent Moiraine from fighting back and interfering with her stilling, then the actual stilling?

 

To me the idea of taking away her power temporarily just to give her a more interesting S2 story line seems odd. They could easily have given her more to do in S2 without taking away her power. Taking it away now, then giving it back to her, then taking it away again later with the Finn would be a strange repetition. Writers usually avoid that.

 

I think they are setting up a much longer story line here: they clearly need to give Rosamund screen time between S4 and S7 somehow, when book-Moiraine is with the Finn. I think the way they will do that is by having Moiraine take Siuan's place as Egwene's advisor in Salidar. For that she would have to be stilled. This would also allow Sophie Okonedo to leave the show early, for which there have been rumors, and Siuan could then be killed off in Elaida's coup, reducing the cast size, which is also something Rafe has hinted at.

As for what causes the coup: Rand declaring himself the Dragon probably would come too late in the show, i.e. would not work. I think the Liandrin/Black Ajah situation will blow up early in S2, and we will also find out in S2 that Moiraine and Siuan have both known that Liandrin is Black, and that will trigger the coup once the Red Ajah finds out.

 

Other things I expect Moiraine/Lan to do in S2 include flashbacks to New Spring (Gitara Moroso flashback, pond scene etc.). Then there is Daniel Henney's comment about "two swords" from an earlier interview. That could just refer to Lan and Rand fighting together (hint at Lan sword-training Rand), but it could also refer to a Draghkar fight in TGH where a Draghkar is killed by two swords.

 

There is also a chance that we will get the redstone doorframe/Finn story line in S2, since it has to happen before the Aiel Waste, and it does not look like we are getting Tear. It could happen in Cairhien, and Moiraine could be involved in that, too. Perhaps lore discovery about the doorframe at Verin's place, then the actual doorframe in the Damodred mansion, tying into Moiraine's family and childhood?

Edited August 17, 2022 by holger

[WhiteVeils]

33 minutes ago, holger said:

I agree that the early part of the scene definitely looks like a shield, but to me the later part, with tight saidin weaves flowing into Moiraine, and Moiraine being in pain, looks more like gentling/stilling to me. It is not how I expect tying off a weave to look like. So perhaps a shield first to prevent Moiraine from fighting back and interfering with her stilling, then the actual stilling?

 

To me the idea of taking away her power temporarily just to give her a more interesting S2 story line seems odd. They could easily have given her more to do in S2 without taking away her power. Taking it away now, then giving it back to her, then taking it away again later with the Finn would be a strange repetition. Writers usually avoid that.

 

I think they are setting up a much longer story line here: they clearly need to give Rosamund screen time between S4 and S7 somehow, when book-Moiraine is with the Finn. I think the way they will do that is by having Moiraine take Siuan's place as Egwene's advisor in Salidar. For that she would have to be stilled. This would also allow Sophie Okonedo to leave the show early, for which there have been rumors, and Siuan could then be killed off in Elaida's coup, reducing the cast size, which is also something Rafe has hinted at.

As for what causes the coup: Rand declaring himself the Dragon probably would come too late in the show, i.e. would not work. I think the Liandrin/Black Ajah situation will blow up early in S2, and we will also find out in S2 that Moiraine and Siuan have both known that Liandrin is Black, and that will trigger the coup once the Red Ajah finds out.

 

Other things I expect Moiraine/Lan to do in S2 include flashbacks to New Spring (Gitara Moroso flashback, pond scene etc.). Then there is Daniel Henney's comment about "two swords" from an earlier interview. That could just refer to Lan and Rand fighting together (hint at Lan sword-training Rand), but it could also refer to a Draghkar fight in TGH where a Draghkar is killed by two swords.

 

There is also a chance that we will get the redstone doorframe/Finn story line in S2, since it has to happen before the Aiel Waste, and it does not look like we are getting Tear. It could happen in Cairhien, and Moiraine could be involved in that, too. Perhaps lore discovery about the doorframe at Verin's place, then the actual doorframe in the Damodred mansion, tying into Moiraine's family and childhood?

 

We saw stilling/gentling with Logain...it's waves of power being ripped out of someone 'blood eagle' style...The Showrunner gave that as the explicit description. We see Ishamael tying off the weave with his hand too.  Taking her power with the Finn is unlikely to happen: trying to explain that her power is less but is still as strong as it was with the s'angreal doesn't serve any purpose other than to make Thom more comfortable with her, and I doubt they will have the Thom/Moiraine relationship. Moiraine doesn't lose her power completely with the Finn at all so it wouldn't be a repeat beat.
They can certainly take out Rosamund for those seasons once the series is established. She has plenty of other work to do, and her work in the last season is limited enough to be a guest appearance .   They may kill Siuan in the coup, but I am inclined to think they will not...the showrunner is very well aware of the 'kill your gays' trope and has reason to try to actively avoid it.  There will be many other deaths, I am sure, but they set up Siuan well enough that they have reason to keep her longer.

 

The coup can come about for many reasons: revealing the relationship between Siuan and Moiraine, revealing the Black Ajah (though I think that's unlikely due to Egwene's Tower politics arc), even due to how the situation with Mat is handled in the Tower. 

 

Henney says he fights two Fades in S2, so two swords may well be related to that.

 

I don't see anything hinting that we won't have any Tear at all in S3.  I think we can have some, especially if we go to Tear as the very last stroke of S2. I think there is too much lore that needs to be conveyed during S2 to introduce Snakes and Foxes and the doorway this season (and Mat is in Tar Valon, not Cairhien in the early episodes).  I do think they will have a little from New Spring, not as a flashbacks, but making Barthanes much more tied into his family history and making him a more important character, linking Moiraine, Rand, Lanfear, and the past of Cairhien and the Aiel.

 

But it's a creative take, so we'll see. 🙂

[Skipp]

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

 

I don't see anything hinting that we won't have any Tear at all in S3.  I think we can have some, especially if we go to Tear as the very last stroke of S2. I think there is too much lore that needs to be conveyed during S2 to introduce Snakes and Foxes and the doorway this season (and Mat is in Tar Valon, not Cairhien in the early episodes).  I do think they will have a little from New Spring, not as a flashbacks, but making Barthanes much more tied into his family history and making him a more important character, linking Moiraine, Rand, Lanfear, and the past of Cairhien and the Aiel.

 

But it's a creative take, so we'll see. 🙂

 

The more I think on it the more I think they won't do any Tear or Callandor in this season or any season soon.  Think on what Tear provides in the books. Rand draws Callandor and the Aiel take the stone.  After that the Aiel leave for the Waste and Rand Leaves Callandor behind and it doesn't become relevant until he fights the Seachan.

 

If you were to leave the taking of Tear until some time after Season 3(which according to R2J2 they want to closely follow tSR) you wouldn't lose much outside of following the prophecies but we don't know how many prophecies they are going to mention in the show.  All you would really need to do is move the Twisted Stone portal to somewhere like Carhenien.  And considering we know Moiraine meets up with Rand they could enter it there.

 

Don't know if this holds water but just something I have been thinking about.