Does Lews Therin hear the voice of Al'Thor

[SilentRoamer]

Hello all, 

So, we know that Lews Therin talks to Rand (I think we can safely rule out Madness due to the weaves and knowledge LTT imparts to Rand). Something I have been thinking about though - does Lews Therin (during his turning of the Wheel) also hear the voice of Rand? Did the voice of the Dragons Soul Reborn have its share in driving LTT mad?

We know most male channelers just go mad via the taint - however in the case of LTT/Rand, their soul is the Champion of the Light, so I posit that for LTT/Rand the madness is typified by their connection to each other, which operates outside of Space and Time but still within the pattern and so has no First Origins. We know that souls exist outside of Time and Space which is why the DO is called Lord of the Grave and why Balefire removed people with the pattern.

Actually I am not sure where I am going with this - kind of feel like I almost have the metaphysics down, just something small missing. 

Any thoughts?

 

[JyP]

They definitely hear each other whenever Rand tries to escape from the box at Dumai's Well.

 

edit: ah, whenever Lews Therin was alive ? I don't think he would be able to hear Rand's voice from the future, but maybe he was able to hear the voice from a previous avatar of the Dragon Reborn. And we know from Lews Therin himself that in Rand's time he was better raised.

 

Lews Therin's madness seems to have been some kind of amnesy though - I don't think he was protected from the Taint and crumbled under it. I guess he never reconciled with his previous incarnation then, and it may have been his greatest secret. 

Edited June 27, 2022 by JyP

[JyP]

And it is also explained by Semirhage that some definitely hear voices from the past - and that they always went insane in this case (well, not the Dragon Reborn).

[Andra]

I suppose it's possible that, if Lews Therin understood his role as the Light's Champion, he would have understood he shared that role (and soul?) with numerous others throughout all seven Ages.  He could have been open to hearing from those others, but it almost seems to require a bit of madness before that's possible.

If that's the case, it would mean he couldn't have heard Rand in his head until AFTER the Taint.  Nothing we see of him while he was alive during that brief point indicates it.  But then we don't see anything of him that's coherent enough to tell.

[Kalessin]

We certainly don't read of Lews Therin hearing voices (any extraneous voices of anyone) during the scene of devastation in the EOTW prolog. And he's very definitely mad then.

 

I don't remember when Rand started hearing Lews Therin's voice in his head, but he was definitely hearing him - and speaking to him - during the hellish treatment following the Aes Sedai capture in LOC.

[Stedding Tofu]

There's nothing to indicate he could.

 

When The Dark One tainted saidin all of The Hundred Companions went mad, Lews Therin included.  At that point it's possible their madness manifested in many forms or that all were some form of personality disorder.

 

Rand has a split personality disorder in WoT.  The kicker is due to reincarnation the second personality is not imaginary but real in the sense that Lews Therin existed and his memories and knowledge transferred to Rand are real.  He remembers The Forsaken and The War of Power and therefore so does Rand.  Accurately.

 

Which raises the interesting question in WoT whether madness in the form of split personality disorder is really something going wrong with the reincarnation process which causes the barrier between the current and previous lives of the soul to be pierced.

 

When Cadsuane first meets Rand she asks whether he has started hearing voices.  Given her extensive experience with men who can channel this strongly suggests that although the pathology of the madness presents differently (Naeff believes he sees fades hiding in the shadows, Andhrol believes something similar, Rand clearly does not) the voices are a common theme.  And if the voice are real past lives of the soul intruding into the mind of the individual, that's quite a stunt by The Dark One.

[VooDooNut]

19 minutes ago, Stedding Tofu said:

There's nothing to indicate he could.

 

When The Dark One tainted saidin all of The Hundred Companions went mad, Lews Therin included.  At that point it's possible their madness manifested in many forms or that all were some form of personality disorder.

 

Rand has a split personality disorder in WoT.  The kicker is due to reincarnation the second personality is not imaginary but real in the sense that Lews Therin existed and his memories and knowledge transferred to Rand are real.  He remembers The Forsaken and The War of Power and therefore so does Rand.  Accurately.

 

Which raises the interesting question in WoT whether madness in the form of split personality disorder is really something going wrong with the reincarnation process which causes the barrier between the current and previous lives of the soul to be pierced.

 

When Cadsuane first meets Rand she asks whether he has started hearing voices.  Given her extensive experience with men who can channel this strongly suggests that although the pathology of the madness presents differently (Naeff believes he sees fades hiding in the shadows, Andhrol believes something similar, Rand clearly does not) the voices are a common theme.  And if the voice are real past lives of the soul intruding into the mind of the individual, that's quite a stunt by The Dark One.

 

I think this is a fascinating topic. I believe The voice of Lews Theron that Rand hears is a product of his madness. In essence, I think it is the Dark One’s “attempt” to thwart the Dragon Reborn. And it is very nearly effective in the long run. Hearing the thoughts/voice of your past life would be very disconcerting and antithetical to the philosophy of the Wheel (rebirth/renewal through death), so I can see how it could be a good strategy/rebuke from the Dark One through the taint of Saidin. 
 

To answer the original post’s question, no don’t think LT hears Rand’a voice, because there isn’t anything in the story to suggest this, but it’s a fascinating theory!

[Dedicated]

On 6/27/2022 at 11:25 AM, SilentRoamer said:

Hello all, 

So, we know that Lews Therin talks to Rand (I think we can safely rule out Madness due to the weaves and knowledge LTT imparts to Rand). Something I have been thinking about though - does Lews Therin (during his turning of the Wheel) also hear the voice of Rand? Did the voice of the Dragons Soul Reborn have its share in driving LTT mad?

We know most male channelers just go mad via the taint - however in the case of LTT/Rand, their soul is the Champion of the Light, so I posit that for LTT/Rand the madness is typified by their connection to each other, which operates outside of Space and Time but still within the pattern and so has no First Origins. We know that souls exist outside of Time and Space which is why the DO is called Lord of the Grave and why Balefire removed people with the pattern.

Actually I am not sure where I am going with this - kind of feel like I almost have the metaphysics down, just something small missing. 

Any thoughts?

 

I have no "in-world" evidence to point to to definitively support your claim, but I actually really love this idea. Because what was Ishamael/the DO really focused on doing to Rand once he successfully touched the power and over powered them in a fight? He started making him distrust the people he loved. 

 

As Rand made his way from Moraine's camp to Tear he was haunted by nightmares of loved ones trying to come and kill him. He was driven so close to the brink that he nearly killed Perrin (or Egwene I can't remember) in Tel'aranroid. 

 

And then assuming that time doesn't necessarily have to be be experienced in a linear manner this is plausible IMO. And really cool! But again, I can't say with much confidence that this is what RJ had in mind. But it'd be an awesome mistake and an even awesomer pre-set idea. 

[Dagon Thyne]

The voice is a form of split personality disorder.  Rand can't acept who he is, so his mind breaks and he hears his own memories as a seperate person.  When he finally finds peace in who he is and what he must do, the voice is gone and he remembers both of his lives as one.

 

[Andra]

14 hours ago, Dagon Thyne said:

The voice is a form of split personality disorder.  Rand can't acept who he is, so his mind breaks and he hears his own memories as a seperate person.  When he finally finds peace in who he is and what he must do, the voice is gone and he remembers both of his lives as one.

 

Actually, that's what Cadsuane implies is going on.  But it isn't really the case.

Rand learns things from Lews Therin that are real.  And which don't come from anything Rand could have experienced himself.  So he couldn't have memories of them.

 

He "remembers" plum trees that he's never seen.  He "remembers" Ilyena's face.  He "remembers" how to break through a Shield.  And so on.

[wotfan4472]

Rand also knows what sea water tastes like, because while he has never even been near the sea, Lews Therin did what I did as a kid and tasted it.

 

Where I am interested is if Lews Therin spoke of lambing during his time before the Strike At Shayol Ghul.

 

[Nik]

I think it's both. The madness altered his mind so LTT memories could seep in. So they were real memories from his past life, but they were also the product of the madness. In a way, the Dark One's counterstroke is what led to his own downfall because it created the madness which gave Rand access to LTT's memories which he used to figure out how to win the Last Battle.

Edited July 26, 2022 by Nik

[Andra]

On 7/26/2022 at 8:38 AM, wotfan4472 said:

Rand also knows what sea water tastes like, because while he has never even been near the sea, Lews Therin did what I did as a kid and tasted it.

 

Where I am interested is if Lews Therin spoke of lambing during his time before the Strike At Shayol Ghul.

 

The "leakage" between the two minds seems to require a bit of madness in order to happen.  Rand never experienced it until after he started channeling, which is why it surprised him when he noticed it.

 

If that's the case, Lews Therin woldn't have had Rand's memories until AFTER the Taint existed.  If ever.

[Kalessin]

Well, he only had a few minutes after Baalzamon's rough mind healing, and he spent most of those talking - if you can use that word - with him before travelling far away and blasting himself into the next age (and making Dragonmount in the process.).

[flinn]

 Lews Therin never speaks to Rand. Rand speaks to himself. He created the "Lews Therin" persona and voice because that is how he dealt with the memories. The memories happen because of the taint. The madness manifested in Rand in a way that he remembered his past.

 

 Lews Therin  was only mad at the very end.

 

 seal his whole and people forget. Channeling is discovered. The dragon is born, learns to channel. One of the idiots want more power, drills into the bore forcing the Dragon to attempt a seal. Seal is imperfect and Dragon dies... Dragon is reborn, is tainted and remembers his past, knowing what he did previously helps him to know how to fix the seal perfectly. Rinse wash repeat.

Edited August 9, 2022 by flinn