The Voice of Lews Therin in the Great Hunt

[SilentRoamer]

So there is a section (I will find it and post it when I get home) in the Great Hunt where Rand hears a voice call him "al' Thor". I know we hear Lews Therin more later in the books as Rands psyche begins to integrate the memories and personality of Lews Therin but to me this is the first example I have seen of Lews Therin talking to Rand - Rand of course just sees this as an intrusive thought but the words are written in italics and seem to come from elsewhere. 

 

Ill post the full text later. Does anyone else think that the Lews Therin Voice comes much earlier than it first seems in the series?

 

[DojoToad]

I don't remember Lews calling him al Thor.  But I'm sure there are many things I don't recall...

[SilentRoamer]

It's possible I am misremembering but I always thought Lews Therin  called Rand: al'Thor in the later books when it is explicit that the voice is Lews Therin.

It's quite possible my memory is wrong. I do have a really solid memory but it's a lot of books and I have only read them all once spread out over a long period of time and have read 100s of other SFF books. 

Anyway I will find the text later and link and see what anyone else thinks. 

[DojoToad]

I always thought I had a solid memory until I came on this website.  Amazing the things I forgot despite having read multiple times.

[SilentRoamer]

Ok so this is the scene:

 

tGH - Chapter: Kinslayer Page: 

"It seemed odd to him that he had begun to think of them as Fain's Darkfriends, Fain's Trollocs. Fain was just a madman. Then why did they rescue him? Fain had been part of the Dark One's scheme to find him. Perhaps it was something to do with that. Then why is he running instead of chasing me? And what killed that Fade? What happened in that room full of flies? And those eyes. watching me in Fal Dara. And that wind, catching me like a beetle in pine sap. No. No, Ba'alzamon has to be dead. The Aes Sedai did not believe it. Moiraine did not believe it, nor the Amyrlin. Stubbornly, he refused to think about it any longer. All he had to think about now was finding that dagger for Mat. Finding Fain, and the Horn. 
     It's never over, al'Thor.
     The voice was like a thin breeze whispering in the back of his head, a thin, icy murmur working its way into the crevices of his mind. He almost sought the void to escape it, but remembering what waited for him there he pushed down the desire."

I have copied the italics and the indents straight out of the book. It seems clear to me that "It's never over al'Thor" is not part of Rands inner voice monologue. 

I've been really keeping watch for when Lews Therin starts to show up and I think for me that is the first time I have seen it. 

[Elder_Haman]

Admittedly, I don't have the text in front of me. But didn't the "Dark One" say this to him in one of their interactions? I suppose it could be LTT, but couldn't it also just be him remembering that prior encounter?

 

Good find, tho!

[Andra]

10 hours ago, SilentRoamer said:

Ok so this is the scene:

 

tGH - Chapter: Kinslayer Page: 

"It seemed odd to him that he had begun to think of them as Fain's Darkfriends, Fain's Trollocs. Fain was just a madman. Then why did they rescue him? Fain had been part of the Dark One's scheme to find him. Perhaps it was something to do with that. Then why is he running instead of chasing me? And what killed that Fade? What happened in that room full of flies? And those eyes. watching me in Fal Dara. And that wind, catching me like a beetle in pine sap. No. No, Ba'alzamon has to be dead. The Aes Sedai did not believe it. Moiraine did not believe it, nor the Amyrlin. Stubbornly, he refused to think about it any longer. All he had to think about now was finding that dagger for Mat. Finding Fain, and the Horn. 
     It's never over, al'Thor.
     The voice was like a thin breeze whispering in the back of his head, a thin, icy murmur working its way into the crevices of his mind. He almost sought the void to escape it, but remembering what waited for him there he pushed down the desire."

I have copied the italics and the indents straight out of the book. It seems clear to me that "It's never over al'Thor" is not part of Rands inner voice monologue. 

I've been really keeping watch for when Lews Therin starts to show up and I think for me that is the first time I have seen it. 

I believe it's clear that was intended to be Fain.  Fain said that to Rand when he visited him in the dungeon with Egwene, and it was the part of the Dark Prophecy that Rand was erasing when Liandrin found him there after the attack.  And tried to kill him.

 

From tGH, ch.3 "Friends and Enemies":

"I feel you there hiding, Rand al'Thor," he said, almost crooning.  "You can't hide, not from me, and not from them.  You thought it was over, did you not?  But the battle's never done, al'Thor.  They are coming for me, and they're coming for you, and the war goes on.  Whether you live or die, it's never over for you.  Never."

 

And then the last line in the chapter:

In the darkness, Fain laughed.  "It's never over, al'Thor.  Never."

 

 

After the attack, when he goes back to the dungeon to look for Egwene and discovers what was written there - ch.6 "Dark Prophecy":

He started toward the inner door, took two steps, and stopped, staring.  The words on the door, dark and glistening wetly in the light of his lamp, were plain enough.

WE WILL MEET AGAIN ON TOMAN HEAD

IT'S NEVER OVER, AL'THOR.

----

At the point in the story you're looking at, Lews Therin hasn't put himself forward in Rand's head at all, and none of the other antagonists had called him by his real name yet.  Ishamael (as "Ba'alzamon") is still taunting him for pretending that's who he is.

Edited June 28, 2022 by Andra

[SilentRoamer]

Hello all,

 

Thankyou for your responses. I think @Andra is correct here. I think this is Rands internal monologue of the haunting voice of Fain - which makes sense considering the context. It was just the weird descriptions of the voice as an almost separate entity to Rand. When you take into consideration the interaction between Fain and Rand in the dungeons it becomes much more obvious. 

The amount of foreshadowing is insane - just tiny little nuggets dropped here and there. I just got to the scene where Rand almost channels with the Choedan Kal! So many things I have forgotten from the earlier books that so far this re-read has been awesome. 

Thanks guys!

[WheelofJuke]

On 6/24/2022 at 8:37 AM, SilentRoamer said:

So there is a section (I will find it and post it when I get home) in the Great Hunt where Rand hears a voice call him "al' Thor". I know we hear Lews Therin more later in the books as Rands psyche begins to integrate the memories and personality of Lews Therin but to me this is the first example I have seen of Lews Therin talking to Rand - Rand of course just sees this as an intrusive thought but the words are written in italics and seem to come from elsewhere. 

 

Ill post the full text later. Does anyone else think that the Lews Therin Voice comes much earlier than it first seems in the series?

I'm rereading book one now and some of Rand's more fatalistic inner thoughts are italicized and I immediately thought, "Is this Lew Therin in his head right from the beginning?" 

So searched this thread out, and glad to see I'm not the only one who sees earlier LTT possiblities. :)

[WheelofJuke]

On 6/28/2022 at 3:05 AM, SilentRoamer said:

Hello all,

 

Thankyou for your responses. I think @Andra is correct here. I think this is Rands internal monologue of the haunting voice of Fain - which makes sense considering the context. It was just the weird descriptions of the voice as an almost separate entity to Rand. When you take into consideration the interaction between Fain and Rand in the dungeons it becomes much more obvious. 

The amount of foreshadowing is insane - just tiny little nuggets dropped here and there. I just got to the scene where Rand almost channels with the Choedan Kal! So many things I have forgotten from the earlier books that so far this re-read has been awesome. 

Thanks guys!

Sorry for the double post...

Also, something similar happens when he passes the White Bridge...a shadow passes through it. Whether that is some sense he has of a power-made object, or perhaps the remnants of taint from the male half used to create it, I don't know, but I'm noticing a lot more of Rand's early brushes with the power, and their aftereffects, during this reread.

[Some_random_novice]

10 hours ago, WheelofJuke said:

Sorry for the double post...

Also, something similar happens when he passes the White Bridge...a shadow passes through it. Whether that is some sense he has of a power-made object, or perhaps the remnants of taint from the male half used to create it, I don't know, but I'm noticing a lot more of Rand's early brushes with the power, and their aftereffects, during this reread.

That is a really interesting idea, I always thought that moment was some form of internal conflict being personified because (this is just my thought) I was thought a lot of Rands internal conflict was good vs. evil since he knows or thinks deep down that he is actually the DR in the first book and doesn’t want to accept it. So I just thought that was a way to show the Shadow of madness or fear of Rand. 
 

just my unwanted .02 cents. 🙂

[Aan-Alone]

On 6/27/2022 at 11:19 AM, SilentRoamer said:

The voice was like a thin breeze whispering in the back of his head, a thin, icy murmur working its way into the crevices of his mind.

Before reading this thread, I always though that was Ishmael taunting Ranf from within his own mind, like he does sometimes with the boys' dreams. And now I'm no longer certain.

 

Ishmael doesn't quite fit for me anymore, as Rand isn't sleeping.

Could be Fain as we don't know the extent of his mashadar powers, but there's nothing like this from Fain later on, that I can recall. 

Could be internal monologue. But the quote above gives me the impression that this voice is something new to Rand. Something intrusive. Something external but within himself now.

 

I think this may just be the first signs of the madness taking hold.