Bigger Perspectives on A Re-Read

[Andra]

It also bears emphasizing that, except for the absence of widespread use of gunpowder (which we know the Illuminators kept secret) their technology isn't actually that far behind ours.  In years, rather than a subjective "advancement" level.  Agaian, except for gunpowder, they are at an immediately "pre-steam" stage.

Steam power didn't really spread until after the Industrial Revolution expanded past Britain in the 19th Century.  Mills and factories were originally powered by water.  Steam replaced water power because it was more flexible and more potent.  You might wonder why we don't see much of that water-powered technology in Randland, but in our world it was only widespread for a few decades before steam replaced it.  And we do know Emond's Field had a water-powered grain mill (operated by Jon Thane), just as most villages had all over the world for centuries before the development of steam.

Most of the technological advancement beyond the general level seen in WOT happened in our world after the development of steam power.  In about two centuries.

 

It's not so much that their technology stagnated, it's that ours accelerated dramatically in a very short time from approximately where they are to where we are now.

Edited June 24, 2022 by Andra

[SinisterDeath]

6 hours ago, Andra said:

Most of the technological advancement beyond the general level seen in WOT happened in our world after the development of steam power.  In about two centuries.

Interesting thing of note, I'm pretty sure we see a Steam Engine in that "College" Rand creates.

[DojoToad]

9 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

Interesting thing of note, I'm pretty sure we see a Steam Engine in that "College" Rand creates.

We do. Mentioned at least a couple times

[Andra]

On 6/24/2022 at 8:25 PM, SinisterDeath said:

Interesting thing of note, I'm pretty sure we see a Steam Engine in that "College" Rand creates.

Yep.

Eventually, they even produce "steam wagons" which were put to quite a bit of use during Tarmon Gai'don.

 

Something else we see in his Academy, that helps fix Randland's place in technological history, is apparently the first attempted use of natural gas for lighting.  In our world, that happened in the 1780s.  Roughly coincident with early developments in steam power.

Technologically, WOT isn't actually in the 16th Century, but closer to the time of the American Revolution - again, with the singular exception of the wide use gunpowder.

 

They had water power for grist mills, metallurgy  to produce high-quality steel, blacksmiths everywhere, draft animals and wagons, crop rotation, lens making (Kin Tovere innovated telescopes, not lenses themselves), naval engineering, etc. etc. etc.

 

This is where our world was immediately before the Industrial Revolution.  Which isn't as "stagnant" as it might first appear.

[SinisterDeath]

13 hours ago, Andra said:

Eventually, they even produce "steam wagons" which were put to quite a bit of use during Tarmon Gai'don.

Huh, I completely missed scene in the big chapter.

I really should re-read that entire chapter... It was kind of a fever dream when I started it at 11pm saying "I'll just finish this chapter and go to bed."... mistakes were made.

[Kalessin]

On 6/24/2022 at 11:47 PM, Gypsum said:

Even with wars, I can't think of anywhere in our world which has been in total stasis for a few thousand years. Arguably, wars drive tech development.

I can think of several locations which remained in the Stone Age right up until the Western world crashed in on them. Starting in the Kalahari Desert - remember The Gods Must Be Crazy?

 

Then going around the world to Australia, New Guinea, Siberia, the Americas North and South. And that is not forgetting that the Americas had some quite prolonged periods of intensive urbanization prior to contact - they were just not evenly spread. So the Aztecs, Mayans, Incas, Cherokee, had cities, while a few hundreds miles away, people were still living in small villages.

 

And until they were outcompeted, Homo Neandertalensis were in technological stasis for up to several hundred thousand years. So it's not impossible. Just unlikely when you have large populations of specialized workers, a high volume of trade, and a spirit of intense competition. Plus writing, so you don't have to reinvent the wheel all the time.

[Kalessin]

On 6/23/2022 at 11:33 PM, SilentRoamer said:

 

I never thought about a connection to the DO - do you mean the True Source or just some intimation of some type of connection?

 

I always took it for the untainted Saidin stored in the Eye because Rand begins to take some of the Black Cord and then starts taking it all and Aginor starts screaming "it is mine" which I don't think he would do if the connection was to the Dark one and rather to the untainted Saidin stored in the bowl.

Its a really interesting concept and it could even be PTSD or madness shining through. 

IIRC, the cord to the Eye of the World was shining brightly when Aginor is draining it; that's when Rand connects to it and he and Aginor have their little fight.

 

When Rand goes in search of Ishamael, he notices the black cord running off into the distance, and attacks that with his imagined sword, cutting through it and causing Ishamael to suffer whiplash. I've always taken that black cord to be his direct connection to the Dark One, since he does the same thing in The Shadow Rising to Asmodean, before boasting to Lanfear that he has broken Asmodean's connection to the Dark One.

[Nik]

5 hours ago, Kalessin said:

IIRC, the cord to the Eye of the World was shining brightly when Aginor is draining it; that's when Rand connects to it and he and Aginor have their little fight.

 

When Rand goes in search of Ishamael, he notices the black cord running off into the distance, and attacks that with his imagined sword, cutting through it and causing Ishamael to suffer whiplash. I've always taken that black cord to be his direct connection to the Dark One, since he does the same thing in The Shadow Rising to Asmodean, before boasting to Lanfear that he has broken Asmodean's connection to the Dark One.

 

Thanks for clarifying, that makes a lot of sense. 

[JyP]

On 6/23/2022 at 1:46 AM, Gypsum said:

Here's my question. One of Rand's Rhuidean visions or whatever went back to the Age of Legends. It looks technologically advanced -- they have things that could be cars, planes, firearms, etc. The Breaking of the World happens, which sends everyone back to the 16th century, socially, politically, technologically. Fair enough. All your male channelers have gone nuts and blown up the world. Pretty much a nuclear apocalypse. But Rand's rise to power happens 3000 years after the Breaking. Why have these people not advanced past the 16th century in 3000 years? Aludra and Mat discover that gunpowder is useful for more than fireworks in the final books, but no one in the previous 3000 years worked that one out?

 

tl;dr : The Weave (and Forsaken) Did It. Note that even in our modern world, we didn't recover all marvels done by the romans like the unbreakable glass shown to one Roman Emperor in the first century (he killed the inventor so it would not compete with current glass making techniques owned by his family).

 

I think that just after the Breaking, some parts of Randland kept advanced technology for some time, time to finish the Choedan Kal, grow the Ways, setup new Ogier stedding or setup the ter'angreal in Far Madding - maybe even the Bowl of the Winds. At the same time, all male Aes Seday wreak havoc during 500 years... Which caused : 

- the Breaking itself, with mountains being flattened or ocean floors raised above sea level... 

- after the Breaking, I guess Tar Valon being constructed by Ogiers and with the One Power

- remaining female Aes Sedai being restricted with Oaths - including not forging weapons for war - by a device intended for criminals during the Age of Legends ! 

- total number of Aes Sedai being reduced drastically over time

- lost knowledge about the One Power 

 

So for a long time there may have been no incentive to develop technologies are there were still One Power practitionners to ease your life. Life got better some times, but Forsaken meddling insured that humanity was never under only one government for a long time.

 

 

[Stedding Tofu]

On 6/8/2022 at 10:48 AM, SilentRoamer said:

It's so interesting reading these events with a full perspective on how things turn out and with a full(er) understanding of the world and its actors. 

Anyone else done a re-read and how did it hold up for you?

 

Pretty well.  It's too long (14 books takes months) but it's a good story.  On re-reading TEOTW for the first time in about 20 years I was struck by the Nynaeve POV chapter after Shadar Logoth when Moiraine tells her she can channel

 

Spoiler

It talks perfectly to Nynaeve's experiences and knocks her on her heels but it also describes perfectly what is happening to Rand and will throughout the book, right down to the intervals between his unconscious channeling and the violent reactions afterwards:

• healing Bela and his euphoria and recklessness in Baerlon confronting the Whitecloaks about a week later
• freeing the boom on The Spray to smash the Trolloc about to spit him (spare a thought for poor Floran Gelb thrown off at Whitebridge for not securing the boom properly!), then scaling the mast and sliding down the rope like a drunk or crazy a few days later
• channeling a lightning bolt (during a storm) to shatter the metal window grille and escape the men who have him and Mat trapped on the way to Caemlyn and his fever the next day
• and finally the coincidence of his channeling to contend with Aginor for The Eye of The World with the almost immediate violent reaction when he destroys the Trolloc army in Tarwin's Gap

It's all perfectly expounded to the reader in that scene where Moiraine talks to Nynaeve but first time round I had no inkling of the hidden message.  Reading it again it's hidden in plain sight

On 6/20/2022 at 5:14 AM, Dhearic said:

My current "re-read" is via audio book. For the first time I realized how obvious it was to figure out Asmodeans killer...

 

It was never obvious to me, not until Moridin cleared it up.  Even if we identify the two servants as suspicious, we don't know which one is the killer or who is hidden behind the inverted weave.  We get POVs from all of the Forsaken in the following few books and none of them had a red flag memory.  Unless I'm still missing something ofc 🙂

 

On 6/24/2022 at 9:23 AM, SilentRoamer said:

 

I would imagine that they clung to the remnants of technological advancements for as long as possible but that these became ever rarer without either:

1. The facilities to replicate the technology (such as say Joh Cars) 

2. Those left with the ability to understand the technology.

3. Those with capability/knowledge in the Power to recreate the manufacturing/industrial base. 
 

 

I agree.  One of the Rhuidean visions Rand has of The Age of Legends is of the exodus from Paaren Disen when the Aiel are entrusted with the Aes Sedai with keeping all the objects of power safe until they can reclaim them.  They leave in horse-drawn wagons as all the jho-cars, sho-wings or hoverflies (cars planes, helicopters) are destroyed.  It's one step away from a refugee exodus on foot.

 

Re-establishing heavy industry and manufacturing when you don't have power, plant, machinery or skilled labour and no safe place to establish yourself and pass those skills on to the next generation with all the years of education, training and experience required for that to be successful, is all but impossible.  Once lost and irrelevant to vagrant/nomadic or subsistence-level survival rediscovering it requires the spark of invention again.

 

It may not seem very plausible that nothing changes for 3,000 years but The Breaking is a cataclysmic event that sees mountain ranges rise and fall and seas flood inhabited land, all in human rather than geological time.  We've no comparable experience, only the imagination of fiction or sci-fi or fantasy writers.  E.G. Margaret Atwood's Madaddam trilogy deals with the idea of a permanent technological collapse and how the loss of knowledge and skills is irreplaceable for a high-tech society.

 

And this story is about magic, surely a reason to stifle technological innovation if ever there was one 🙂

[Gypsum]

Fair points, everyone.

 

This thought keeps coming to me as I read: I think they must use the One Power to stop mares from coming into season. There are mares, stallions, geldings, all picketed together, ridden together, tied together, and no one has any problems with horses losing their minds, becoming sex-crazed lunatics, or unplanned foals.

 

For the love of the Light, can I have some of that, please?

 

(Jordan writes like someone who knows a bit about horses because he read a couple things, but he's never spent any time with them or ridden himself. He knows the difference between a stallion, a gelding, and a mare, but does he really know it?)

Edited July 3, 2022 by Gypsum

[Stedding Tofu]

On 7/4/2022 at 12:40 AM, Gypsum said:

(Jordan writes like someone who knows a bit about horses because he read a couple things, but he's never spent any time with them or ridden himself. He knows the difference between a stallion, a gelding, and a mare, but does he really know it?)

 

I've heard people say that a few times.  As a non-horse person he gets away with it for me.  All those Mat chapters where he examines horses for fitness, speed and stamina, going on about the line of the withers and the crupper and the fetlocks, etc.. seemed to imply knowledge.  Horses come alive almost like characters rather than being mere transportation devices - Bela(!), Pips, Mandarb, Aldieb, Wind, Stepper and Stayer, Swallow, Tai'daishar, Lioness all have a place in characters' and the reader's affections.

 

What RJ doesn't do is sex, including horse sex 🙂

 

And, given all the attention to horses and the bond between rider and mount, what strikes me is the absence of dogs and cats.  Sure, there's the odd farmer's dog and the Tuatha'an have mastiffs; every inn, palace or grain store has a mouser too; but no one has a beloved pet and I can't think of a single cat or dog that has a presence (or a name) the way horses do.

[SilentRoamer]

5 minutes ago, Stedding Tofu said:

Horses come alive almost like characters rather than being mere transportation devices - Bela(!), Pips, Mandarb, Aldieb, Wind, Stepper and Stayer, Swallow, Tai'daishar, Lioness all have a place in characters' and the reader's affections.

 

Don't forget Red! He's been a great companion for Rand during tGH.

Also - Bela isn't a horse, it's the Creator in disguise. 

 

All hail Bela!

[Gypsum]

41 minutes ago, Stedding Tofu said:

've heard people say that a few times.  As a non-horse person he gets away with it for me.  All those Mat chapters where he examines horses for fitness, speed and stamina, going on about the line of the withers and the crupper and the fetlocks, etc.. seemed to imply knowledge.  Horses come alive almost like characters rather than being mere transportation devices - Bela(!), Pips, Mandarb, Aldieb, Wind, Stepper and Stayer, Swallow, Tai'daishar, Lioness all have a place in characters' and the reader's affections.

 

 

He's worked out enough jargon to convince non-horse people but it comes across as nonsensical to horse people. Those are always the bits that throw me out of my suspension of disbelief.

 

For example, "it took a good eye to notice the deep chest and strong wither that promised blunt-nosed Pips could likely match Rand's stallion or Lan's for speed and endurance."

 

The withers are the horse's shoulder blades, and the phrase "strong wither" actually doesn't mean anything with regards to the athleticism of the animal. Also, a deep chest is neither here nor there if the hind end is weak. Mat, as a knowledgeable horseman, should have made a note about the conformation of the horse's hindquarters, his feet and legs, and the straightness of his movement.

 

Horses really are characters, with big personalities. That part is right. They have more opinions, complexity, and character than you see in most books and TV shows (including the Wheel of Time). And they break a lot, though I suppose Aes Sedai Healing would solve a lot of mystery lameness problems. "Don't know why he's lame. Just zap him with the One Power and he'll come sound." That would be living the dream.

Edited July 5, 2022 by Gypsum

[Andra]

11 hours ago, Gypsum said:

The withers are the horse's shoulder blades, and the phrase "strong wither" actually doesn't mean anything with regards to the athleticism of the animal. Also, a deep chest is neither here nor there if the hind end is weak. Mat, as a knowledgeable horseman, should have made a note about the conformation of the horse's hindquarters, his feet and legs, and the straightness of his movement.

Doesn't he remark during the race at the Golden Circuit that the favored horse has "no bottom?"

[Gypsum]

17 hours ago, Andra said:

Doesn't he remark during the race at the Golden Circuit that the favored horse has "no bottom?"

 

I don't remember. Which book was that again?

 

No fantasy writer I've read has ever quite captured the personalities, neuroses, and stress of horses. Mercedes Lackey had those super-intelligent horses and Tolkien had Shadowfax (who was a pretty believable horsey character... he was such a nutbar that only a wizard could handle and ride him!), but those equines were not going to spook at a plastic bag or stick their foot through a wire fence. Jordan makes them characters in their own right, more so than most, but he doesn't go far enough.

 

 

[Andra]

2 hours ago, Gypsum said:

 

I don't remember. Which book was that again?

 

No fantasy writer I've read has ever quite captured the personalities, neuroses, and stress of horses. Mercedes Lackey had those super-intelligent horses and Tolkien had Shadowfax (who was a pretty believable horsey character... he was such a nutbar that only a wizard could handle and ride him!), but those equines were not going to spook at a plastic bag or stick their foot through a wire fence. Jordan makes them characters in their own right, more so than most, but he doesn't go far enough.

 

 

The scene with the horse race is in Crown of Swords, ch.14 "White Plumes."  But I just went back over it, and the line I remember didn't come from there.

Also, the race is in the Circuit of Heaven, not the Golden Circuit.

 

What Mat said there about the favorites in that race was this:

Mat did not bother to glance toward the ten horses entered in the next race that were parading at one end of the course.  He had already taken a good look while putting Olver up on Wind.  "All of it.  Some idiot clubbed the piebald's tail; he's already half mad from the flies.  The dun is showy, but he has a bad angle to his fetlocks.  He may have won some in the country, but he'll finish last today."

 

The line I was thinking of went something like, "and the horse, like its rider, had no bottom."  When I think of it, that sounds more like something he would say about Weiramon or one of the other High Lords of Tear or Cairhien.

 

I'll have to see if I can find the scene I was remembering.

[Gypsum]

1 hour ago, Andra said:

The scene with the horse race is in Crown of Swords, ch.14 "White Plumes."  But I just went back over it, and the line I remember didn't come from there.

Also, the race is in the Circuit of Heaven, not the Golden Circuit.

 

What Mat said there about the favorites in that race was this:

Mat did not bother to glance toward the ten horses entered in the next race that were parading at one end of the course.  He had already taken a good look while putting Olver up on Wind.  "All of it.  Some idiot clubbed the piebald's tail; he's already half mad from the flies.  The dun is showy, but he has a bad angle to his fetlocks.  He may have won some in the country, but he'll finish last today."

 

The line I was thinking of went something like, "and the horse, like its rider, had no bottom."  When I think of it, that sounds more like something he would say about Weiramon or one of the other High Lords of Tear or Cairhien.

 

I'll have to see if I can find the scene I was remembering.

 Close, but still no cigar. If only handicapping races was that easy! Anyone with a good eye for conformation (a lot of people, quite frankly) would be able to do it. "Bad angle to his fetlocks" (which in itself means assorted faults... I would say "too upright" or "toed in," "toed out," etc.) would stop me from buying a horse because I'm interested in its long-term soundness, but many a terribly-conformed racehorse has done well on the track. Seabiscuit comes to mind. I've seen loads of ex-racers who I would not touch with a bargepole, but they won lots of races. Thoroughbreds often have rubbish feet and weird stuff going on with hoof and leg angles anyway. Not that the racehorses in Randland are all TBs, but textbook legs and feet do not necessarily equate to speed, and in the real world, they often don't. No one can look at a field of racehorses and say, "That one will be last today." It depends on the conditions of the track, the horse's past performances, the other horses on the track, and the sheer randomness of a horse race. If the fastest -- on paper -- horse just can't be bothered that day, gets held up in traffic, or stumbles at the start or whatever, one with lower odds might win.

 

Don't get me started on his descriptions of how one actually rides!

 

I am enjoying my reread, but he should have found a horseperson to advise.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Gypsum

[wotfan4472]

On 6/23/2022 at 11:46 AM, Gypsum said:

Enjoying my reread. When Jordan isn't overdoing it with people's clothes, he's a powerful writer, and he sucks you into the trippiness of his world. I'm in the middle of The Shadow Rising and everyone has just been through Rhuidean.

 

Here's my question. One of Rand's Rhuidean visions or whatever went back to the Age of Legends. It looks technologically advanced -- they have things that could be cars, planes, firearms, etc. The Breaking of the World happens, which sends everyone back to the 16th century, socially, politically, technologically. Fair enough. All your male channelers have gone nuts and blown up the world. Pretty much a nuclear apocalypse. But Rand's rise to power happens 3000 years after the Breaking. Why have these people not advanced past the 16th century in 3000 years? Aludra and Mat discover that gunpowder is useful for more than fireworks in the final books, but no one in the previous 3000 years worked that one out?

The answer is that the Dark One was still influencing the world, and that meant that Ishamael showed up in the Trolloc Wars and The War Of The Hundred Years to stop Humanity's development.

The seals did not completely cut the Dark One off from the world totally. He had minute access. The obvious clue to this, is the fact that Shadowspawn need the Dark One touching the world to exist, and the absolute limit is the equivalent of a molecular level touch on the word.

With the prison fully restored at the end of the series, the Shadowspawn all die, to be rebuilt the next cycle.