Could Egwene's overall arc be the most tragic thing ever?

[Dedicated]

Here is this sweet, innocent, small village girl promised to a tall, handsome, noble young man. Suddenly they're swooped away on some adventure leading to 3 gorgeous young women who immediately start sizing him up and portioning him out claiming, "oh the pattern, the pattern!" Mean while they pull the bait and switch on her. They flash Galad in front of her to make her head swim and bombard her psychologically considering the culture shock she must be through through. Plus... trollocs y'all... That's some scary stuff. And she ultimately ends up with Gawayn; who, it could be argued, was a significant handicap for her in the end. And then sacrificing herself to help save the world. 

 

Also she's enslaved, tortured, burdened with some of the most significant problems facing their world and who knows what else I'm forgetting. Egwene deserved so much better... ?

[Asthereal]

If the plot hadn't hit the Emond's Field Five in the face, I'm pretty sure Egwene would have become Nynaeve's apprentice Wisdom, and wouldn't have wed Rand anyway.

 

But yeah, Egwene has quite the pile of bad luck and misfortune. Yet the way she deals with it, grows from it and in the end has the strongest character arc barring Rand himself makes her a favorite for many. I really loved her arc in books 11 and 12. How she suffers for the greater good and prevails in the end is inspiring.

[DojoToad]

9 hours ago, Dedicated said:

Here is this sweet, innocent, small village girl promised to a tall, handsome, noble young man. Suddenly they're swooped away on some adventure leading to 3 gorgeous young women who immediately start sizing him up and portioning him out claiming, "oh the pattern, the pattern!" Mean while they pull the bait and switch on her. They flash Galad in front of her to make her head swim and bombard her psychologically considering the culture shock she must be through through. Plus... trollocs y'all... That's some scary stuff. And she ultimately ends up with Gawayn; who, it could be argued, was a significant handicap for her in the end. And then sacrificing herself to help save the world. 

 

Also she's enslaved, tortured, burdened with some of the most significant problems facing their world and who knows what else I'm forgetting. Egwene deserved so much better... ?

Life is not fair.  Don't know what else to tell you...

[Juan Farstrider]

I saw her end as the most heroic of all. Her name would absolutely be on the tips of the tongues of every child and every parent who wants to instill courage in that child. Her memory will stand tall in the minds of all those who come after, and she left a visible monument to maintain that memory.

She didn't just give her all, she gave herself. I can only think of her end as heroic. 

[DojoToad]

21 minutes ago, Juan Farstrider said:

I saw her end as the most heroic of all. Her name would absolutely be on the tips of the tongues of every child and every parent who wants to instill courage in that child. Her memory will stand tall in the minds of all those who come after, and she left a visible monument to maintain that memory.

She didn't just give her all, she gave herself. I can only think of her end as heroic. 

Absolutely.  All she went through and she persevered and triumphed.  Many heroic deeds in the Last Battle, but the world wouldn't have been worth living in even with Rand's victory.  The Dark One would have been defeated, but his minions would have finished destroying the Army of Light and been in control despite the DO being locked away.  Unless they turned on each other, the good guys were done.

 

Rand's victory may have been more important for the new age, but Egwene's was only a hair behind (if at all).

[Juan Farstrider]

@DojoToad I think Egwene's sacrifice puts it in a different category, not a "better" category and not with regard to the ultimate victory but I think every event we read in the books is a contribution to (or attempt to prevent) that victory. I don't know that Rand's ending is all that different than the plot of The Last Temptation of Christ (which the plot of that movie is not the end of that movie). 

I would shudder to think the books were entering a new age or new turning of the wheel where such heroism is antiquated. 

[Andra]

The most heroic stories are frequently also the most tragic.

[Juan Farstrider]

@Andra I guess I think of tragic in the "Greek tragedy" sense, where the downfall is from some character defect and the end is a loss. The movie Kingpin is not a tragedy because there's a redemption at the end (literally guy and girl unite and drive off happily ever after), though it has all the hall marks of one until it reveals itself as a "hero's journey". 

[Dedicated]

On 4/1/2022 at 5:04 PM, Juan Farstrider said:

@Andra I guess I think of tragic in the "Greek tragedy" sense, where the downfall is from some character defect and the end is a loss. The movie Kingpin is not a tragedy because there's a redemption at the end (literally guy and girl unite and drive off happily ever after), though it has all the hall marks of one until it reveals itself as a "hero's journey". 

 

Well I mean that's just my point. Egwene was probably the most consistently honorable character throughout the series. First 2 gorgeous big city women (one of whom is a going to be a freaking queen) start poking and prodding her relactionship with a boy she expects/hopes to one day marry; all the while making it seem like friendly banter, but deep down inside THEY ABOSLUTELY WERE ANGLING TO STEAL HER PROMISED LOVED. But the pattern, the pattern... I get it... And poor Egwene really has no way to defend herself here. She can't just outright say, "stop trying to steal my man!" to a couple of girls who she wants to be friends with. And remember.. Egwene is basically alone in a world she barely understands. And she's basically a kid. 

 

Then she's kidnapped, tortured and enslaved by the Seanchan. Later she's beaten by the Aiel who eventually respect her.  And she's beaten again later by Aes Sedai. Then she becomes Amyrlin during one of the most trying times anyone could become Amyrlin. 

Sure she gets a whole lot of respect and admiration... but from all the people who basically tormented and made her duties within the pattern as difficult as possible. And does she at least get to bang some really hot dude? No, she gets Gawayn a rudderless fool who never really took to time to think about what he was doing and for what end.

 

I'm just saying that RJ did Egwene dirty. She deserved better. Maybe she should have at least gotten to have hot sex with Galad just once! Egwene is probably in the afterlife thinking, "bruh... that was lame AF! I'm not doing that shit again..." And Jesus is right there next to her reading The Winds of Winter and is like, "yea, me either." 

Edited April 3, 2022 by Dedicated
Spelling correcton

[DojoToad]

14 hours ago, Dedicated said:

 

Well I mean that's just my point. Egwene was probably the most consistently honorable character throughout the series. First 2 gorgeous big city women (one of whom is a going to be a freaking queen) start poking and prodding her relactionship with a boy she expects/hopes to one day marry; all the while making it seem like friendly banter, but deep down inside THEY ABOSLUTELY WERE ANGLING TO STEAL HER PROMISED LOVED. But the pattern, the pattern... I get it... And poor Egwene really has no way to defend herself here. She can't just outright say, "stop trying to steal my man!" to a couple of girls who she wants to be friends with. And remember.. Egwene is basically alone in a world she barely understands. And she's basically a kid. 

 

Then she's kidnapped, tortured and enslaved by the Seanchan. Later she's beaten by the Aiel who eventually respect her.  And she's beaten again later by Aes Sedai. Then she becomes Amyrlin during one of the most trying times anyone could become Amyrlin. 

Sure she gets a whole lot of respect and admiration... but from all the people who basically tormented and made her duties within the pattern as difficult as possible. And does she at least get to bang some really hot dude? No, she gets Gawayn a rudderless fool who never really took to time to think about what he was doing and for what end.

 

I'm just saying that RJ did Egwene dirty. She deserved better. Maybe she should have at least gotten to have hot sex with Galad just once! Egwene is probably in the afterlife thinking, "bruh... that was lame AF! I'm not doing that shit again..." And Jesus is right there next to her reading The Winds of Winter and is like, "yea, me either." 

She was more than happy with Gawyn when she'd sneak into Caemlyn to make out with him.  And the dreams...  

 

Too bad the end of the world got in the way of the Spring Break moments you feel she deserved.  Her sense of duty would have shamed some Borderlanders.  Yes, she may have wished for more, but she took care of business.  Doesn't necessarily make it tragic.

[Dedicated]

Was she though? Or was she conned into thinking she was happy? Forced to make the best out of a crap situation?

 

I'm just getting into TDR for my second read and I'm wanting to look out for Egwene's internal monologues about her feelings about letting go of Rand. If I recall correctly she subtly and slowly starts to adopt the logic suggested to her by Elyane and Min; eventually deciding to give up Rand. And what does Rand dream? He has a dream of skinny dipping with Elyane and Min while Egwene runs away crying. Is it possible that, that really was Egwene? Perhaps a subconscious manifestation of her true feelings? Maybe Egwene didn't even allow herself to truly acknowledge how hard letting go of Rand was.

 

Egwene is strong and determined to not let things get in her way. Even her own feelings. Was her life really worth it? Or does she and the rest of us just try really hard to make it seem Egwene's arc was fair in the end? Are we good people if our survival depends on the sacrifice of the innocent? What does survival and ultiamtely life really mean to us? Are we living just to survive? Or are we living to shape our destinies? Will we build a world where we are sacrificing our innocence for the sake of survival? Or will we build a world that reflects our ideals and sense of justice and honor?

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, Dedicated said:

Was she though? Or was she conned into thinking she was happy? Forced to make the best out of a crap situation?

 

I'm just getting into TDR for my second read and I'm wanting to look out for Egwene's internal monologues about her feelings about letting go of Rand. If I recall correctly she subtly and slowly starts to adopt the logic suggested to her by Elyane and Min; eventually deciding to give up Rand. And what does Rand dream? He has a dream of skinny dipping with Elyane and Min while Egwene runs away crying. Is it possible that, that really was Egwene? Perhaps a subconscious manifestation of her true feelings? Maybe Egwene didn't even allow herself to truly acknowledge how hard letting go of Rand was.

 

Egwene is strong and determined to not let things get in her way. Even her own feelings. Was her life really worth it? Or does she and the rest of us just try really hard to make it seem Egwene's arc was fair in the end? Are we good people if our survival depends on the sacrifice of the innocent? What does survival and ultiamtely life really mean to us? Are we living just to survive? Or are we living to shape our destinies? Will we build a world where we are sacrificing our innocence for the sake of survival? Or will we build a world that reflects our ideals and sense of justice and honor?

As I said earlier - life isn't fair.

 

And her sacrifices allowed her to build a world that reflected her ideals, justice, and honor.

[Juan Farstrider]

On 4/2/2022 at 4:52 PM, Dedicated said:

 

Well I mean that's just my point. Egwene was probably the most consistently honorable character throughout the series. First 2 gorgeous big city women (one of whom is a going to be a freaking queen) start poking and prodding her relactionship with a boy she expects/hopes to one day marry; all the while making it seem like friendly banter, but deep down inside THEY ABOSLUTELY WERE ANGLING TO STEAL HER PROMISED LOVED. But the pattern, the pattern... I get it... And poor Egwene really has no way to defend herself here. She can't just outright say, "stop trying to steal my man!" to a couple of girls who she wants to be friends with. And remember.. Egwene is basically alone in a world she barely understands. And she's basically a kid. 

We see glimpses of so many instances where Rand and Egwene get together. All seem to me to be when they stay home and see no more than each other and where their potential and growth as people remain as adaptations to their lives in their home. But, once they move on and away, they become different people than they would be than if they had stayed. I think the books show clearly that Egwene learns this. Nostalgia we all share for what could have been, the forces of the world act on most of us just as it acted on them to force them and us out of their and our home towns and adapt to new experiences and incorporate a larger world into our lives. 

[Alannasaurus]

YES. I just finished the series for the first time and her death is the only one that caught me off guard. I had no doubt she was gonna survive out of sheer grit and stubbornness and her death just really seems out of place in the story. I feel like she only died bc one of the main Emond’s fielder’s had to go and they didn’t want it to be on of the three ta’veren. She had so many big plans for the white tower that I doubt Cadsuane will follow through on, definitely the most tragic story and it was the one that kept me up at night once I finished the series. (And we don’t see any reaction from Nyneave, Elayne, or Aviendha????? Ridiculous and upsetting)

[Stedding Tofu]

5 hours ago, Alannasaurus said:

YES. I just finished the series for the first time and her death is the only one that caught me off guard. I had no doubt she was gonna survive out of sheer grit and stubbornness and her death just really seems out of place in the story. I feel like she only died bc one of the main Emond’s fielder’s had to go and they didn’t want it to be on of the three ta’veren. She had so many big plans for the white tower that I doubt Cadsuane will follow through on, definitely the most tragic story and it was the one that kept me up at night once I finished the series. (And we don’t see any reaction from Nyneave, Elayne, or Aviendha????? Ridiculous and upsetting)

 

I think she was given a hugely impactful role in the last few books and that her sacrifice was a poignant but also a tremendously inspiring and effective one, the textbook definition of heroism and leading by example.  So it's sad - it bothered me for about a week when I first read AMoL - but too inspiring to be tragic.

 

We do see Nynaeve being upset (in a Perrin pov) but then there is so much to process after Merrilor that BS can't really begin to encompass it all (Elayne's grief over Gawyn*, Faile's over her parents are also absent).  * We're actually shown Elayne being sad over Birgitte leaving to be reborn but not over Gawyn dying IIRC.

 

The idea of sacrifice was key to Rand finally accepting that he had to imprison The Dark One rather than end him and create a perfect world where people would be shorn of free will because he had made that fundamental choice re good vs evil for them.  I think it's Egwene's death and her spirit's insistence to him that she also get to choose to sacrifice herself, that the Last Battle is not about him protecting everyone, that finally gets through to him.

 

RJ has set up Rand's death since the very beginning so to switch on us takes a while to process but I think it fits thematically without diminishing Egwene's importance.

[DojoToad]

10 hours ago, Alannasaurus said:

YES. I just finished the series for the first time and her death is the only one that caught me off guard. I had no doubt she was gonna survive out of sheer grit and stubbornness and her death just really seems out of place in the story. I feel like she only died bc one of the main Emond’s fielder’s had to go and they didn’t want it to be on of the three ta’veren. She had so many big plans for the white tower that I doubt Cadsuane will follow through on, definitely the most tragic story and it was the one that kept me up at night once I finished the series. (And we don’t see any reaction from Nyneave, Elayne, or Aviendha????? Ridiculous and upsetting)

There was so much fear, grief, joy, anger and relief to process that the book would have added another couple hundred pages if the characters had to process it all.  Those emotions were for us to feel and deal with - which I did.  But I understand that you wanted to see the characters process all the events.  I was good with the 900 pages as they were.  The feelings and reactions flowed through me and I didn't have to judge if the characters were reacting appropriately to who lived and died, won and lost.  I thought it was done very well.

 

We all look for different things...

Edited May 7, 2022 by DojoToad

[Alannasaurus]

On 5/7/2022 at 7:28 AM, Stedding Tofu said:

 

I think she was given a hugely impactful in the last few and that her sacrifice was a poignant but a tremendously inspiring and effective one, of heroism and leading by example.  So it's sad - it bothered me for about a week when I read AMoL - but too inspiring to be tragic.

 

We do see Nynaeve being upset (in a Perrin pov) but then there is so much to process after Merrilor that BS can't really begin to encompass it all (Elayne's grief over Gawyn*, Faile's over her parents are absent).  * We're shown Elayne being sad over Birgitte leaving to be reborn but not over Gawyn dying IIRC.

 

The of sacrifice was key to Rand finally accepting that he had to imprison The Dark One rather than end him and create a perfect world where people would be shorn of free will because he had made that fundamental choice re good vs evil for them.  I think it's Egwene's death and her spirit's insistence to him that she get to choose to sacrifice herself, that the Last Battle is not about him protecting everyone, that finally gets through to him.

 

RJ has set up Rand's death since the very so to switch on us takes a while to process but I think it fits thematically without diminishing Egwene's importance.

Egwene's sacrifice influencing Rand is a very good point

[Dagon Thyne]

Egwene had already decided she didn't want to marry Rand and wasn't in love with him before Any real romance had started between him and the other three.    So he was'nt stolen from her.

 

 

[Dedicated]

19 hours ago, Dagon Thyne said:

Egwene had already decided she didn't want to marry Rand and wasn't in love with him before Any real romance had started between him and the other three.    So he was'nt stolen from her.

 

I strongly disagree. From one of the earliest meetings between Rand and Min, Min had dropped strong hints that they would wind up together. Elyane's final words to Rand at Camlyn were, "...if I told my mother I thought you were handsome she surely would have confined you to the dungeons..." And then Avienda... well.. I don't understand those Aiel, but it was clear she was wanting that D pretty soon after meeting Rand and was ashamed for feeling that way about someone she considered a "near-sister" to be romantically invested in.

 

There was a distinct moment where Egwene finally "let go" and I believe that it is illustrated in a dream that Rand has of skinny dipping with the 3 would-be "near-sisters" while Egwene ran away crying. I'm pretty sure it's in book 4. Rand even tries to go after to her, but he get's dragged back into the waters with those gorgeous young, naked women.

 

That dream happens after (what I believe) is a culmination of a series of small influences from the would-be sisters and maybe even the creator. I don't know. 

 

I've been thinking about it a lot lately and I'm trying to work out a way where it would make sense for Mat and Egwene to have been together. Cause imagine... Mat as Egwene's warder... both of them heading the front at the Final Battle... But maybe I'm just being silly. 

 

Besides, then how would the 9 Moons get reconciled with the Dragon Reborn and other stuff I'm probably not realizing...

[Asthereal]

9 hours ago, Dedicated said:

I've been thinking about it a lot lately and I'm trying to work out a way where it would make sense for Mat and Egwene to have been together. Cause imagine... Mat as Egwene's warder... both of them heading the front at the Final Battle... But maybe I'm just being silly. 

 

Besides, then how would the 9 Moons get reconciled with the Dragon Reborn and other stuff I'm probably not realizing...

 

I don't know about Egwene plus Mat as warder. I feel like Egwene was a better character because she didn't need the three ta'veren boys, and went her own way, first studying with the wise ones and then finding her footing as the amyrlin seat. She had help, sure, but her not needing men especially feels like a nice -and a lot more subtle than is common nowadays- feminist story. And that's coming from a guy. ? 

[Dedicated]

I don't think an Egwene and Mat romance would have undercut her character in anyway. I like the idea because there seems to be hints that in a past life Mat was a King of Manatherene and Egwene was the Queen.

 

Also, Mat, the master strategist and commander as a warder with Egwene heading the Aes Sedai mixed in? How could that NOT have been awesome? Who knows how Mat and Egwene would have used that warder bond to their advantage. 

 

[Dagon Thyne]

On 5/30/2022 at 12:59 AM, Dedicated said:

 

I strongly disagree. From one of the earliest meetings between Rand and Min, Min had dropped strong hints that they would wind up together. Elyane's final words to Rand at Camlyn were, "...if I told my mother I thought you were handsome she surely would have confined you to the dungeons..." And then Avienda... well.. I don't understand those Aiel, but it was clear she was wanting that D pretty soon after meeting Rand and was ashamed for feeling that way about someone she considered a "near-sister" to be romantically invested in.

 

There was a distinct moment where Egwene finally "let go" and I believe that it is illustrated in a dream that Rand has of skinny dipping with the 3 would-be "near-sisters" while Egwene ran away crying. I'm pretty sure it's in book 4. Rand even tries to go after to her, but he get's dragged back into the waters with those gorgeous young, naked women.

 

That dream happens after (what I believe) is a culmination of a series of small influences from the would-be sisters and maybe even the creator. I don't know. 

 

I've been thinking about it a lot lately and I'm trying to work out a way where it would make sense for Mat and Egwene to have been together. Cause imagine... Mat as Egwene's warder... both of them heading the front at the Final Battle... But maybe I'm just being silly. 

 

Besides, then how would the 9 Moons get reconciled with the Dragon Reborn and other stuff I'm probably not realizing...

Egwene decided they couldn't be together and was already falling for Gawyn by the second and third books.  She even seemed to be giving Elayne her blessings to be with him.  In book 4.

[Remodel]

Egwene's story was tragic. 

Spoiler

Her tragedy caused by being taveren herself; I think mentioned by Siuan. Siuan had that taveren talent.  Everything she went through from the start set her to that path, which she met and exceeded.  I remember reading her death as setting her free of it to be born again and the scene gave me the impression she was joyous over it.

 

 

Hopefully, she gets a reward from the pattern (balance) next time with no Gawyn.  To me Gawyn was insufferable.

Edited July 31, 2022 by Remodel
Add spoiler for potential future readers.

[Andra]

26 minutes ago, Remodel said:

Egwene's story was tragic.  Her tragedy caused by being taveren herself; I think mentioned by Siuan. Siuan had that taveren talent.  Everything she went through from the start set her to that path, which she met and exceeded.  I remember reading her death as setting her free of it to be born again and the scene gave me the impression she was joyous over it.

 

Hopefully, she gets a reward from the pattern (balance) next time with no Gawyn.  To me Gawyn was insufferable.

Or maybe just a Gawyn who isn't insufferable?

[Stedding Tofu]

8 hours ago, Remodel said:

Egwene's story was tragic.  Her tragedy caused by being taveren herself; I think mentioned by Siuan. Siuan had that taveren talent.  Everything she went through from the start set her to that path, which she met and exceeded.  I remember reading her death as setting her free of it to be born again and the scene gave me the impression she was joyous over it.

 

Hopefully, she gets a reward from the pattern (balance) next time with no Gawyn.  To me Gawyn was insufferable.

 

Egwene isn't ta'veren though, any more than Cadsuane or Sorilea or Nynaeve is.  She's a pivotal character, highly effective and hugely instrumental and certainly has a claim to greatness but it's not the Pattern that bends things to her will to meet it's design, it's her vision and force of character.  Same for Cadsuane, Sorilea or Nynaeve.

 

Could she have been written as a ta'veren?   Absolutely.  So could Nynaeve.  But RJ wrote the three boys as ta'veren to allow them to achieve otherwise unattainable goals and to mark them out as something different and, initially, to leave some doubt as to who the Dragon Reborn actually is.  I imagine if he was writing today all five of the village youths would be ta'veren though the value of ta'veren is in their rarity and I always thought it rather cheapened situations when people did otherwise unlikely things when the ta'veren card was played on them.

 

Gawyn was a realistic but unimpressive character.  His immaturity and pride, combined with an impulsiveness and lack of judgment make him a loose cannon who goes from one poor decision to another.  That's a very realistic portrait of a young man who can't overcome his flaws, or doesn't have time to age and mature enough to become a more rounded character.  His relationship with Egwene is a fairy tale portrayal of young love with the handsome prince falling for the innkeeper's daughter and throwing it all away for her, except of course she becomes more than him and the fairy tale morphs into a tragedy and we end up with Romeo and Juliet.

 

My biggest complaint about Gawyn is that he was raised to be First Prince of The Sword of Andor, to dedicate his life to duty and to Elayne, and to serve in the shadow of a more powerful woman but he abandons Elayne and Andor without a second thought and seems to have absorbed none of his lifelong training about playing second fiddle to a powerful woman.  He very much fails to impress.