Why Graendal didn't kill Asmodean

[Beckon]

So because you don't consider the logic til after you've assumed it's Lanfear that means it was her?

[Tenshin_Xo]

We knew from the moment that Lanfear stepped(or was pulled) through the doorway that she was either in finnland, or dead. Mat went through the same door before that, and we saw where it took him. So if she has an alibi, how is she 'intuitively obvious'?

[johnnysd]

So because you don't consider the logic til after you've assumed it's Lanfear that means it was her?

 

No. I am not saying it is defintely Lanfear. What I am saying, is that the lack of a deducible method for Lanfear to have killed Amsodean, does not mean that it is not her, nor that it is not "obvious" to the reader. Lanfear was one of the key characters in the series to that point. I have always though that this section was purely a nod to the fact that we will see Lanfear again. The great great majority of people that I have spoken to, ON FIRST READ, have immediately thought Lanfear. Only later do you see there are some issues with her being the killer. Jodan has never ever said that the how was obvious, just the who. Jordan has specifically kept the events in Finnland vague, keeping Lanfears identity secret, also keeps those events secret

 

One more thing: I know that Lanfear was "held" by the Finn, died and was resurrected. Most people assume she died in Finnland. I think that is a spurious assumption. We also do not know how long Lanfear was held, or how time works in Finnland. She may have been in there a year, but only a few minutes to the outside world.

 

We cannot "prove" Graendal with unsubstantiated assumptions, nor can we disprove Lanfear with the same.

[johnnysd]

We knew from the moment that Lanfear stepped(or was pulled) through the doorway that she was either in finnland' date=' or dead. Mat went through the same door before that, and we saw where it took him. So if she has an alibi, how is she 'intuitively obvious'?[/quote']

 

The "alibi" is irrelevant. You assume there is an alibi, but you have no idea how long she is in Finnland nor what happens in there. It is mentioned that time is different in Finnland and space is also twisted.

[Magicana]

By this point the reader believes that she is dead. She went through with Moiraine and it is after the Ter'Angreal catches fire that Lan thinks she is dead. We assume that Lanfear dies too, because of the severing of the tie to the normal world.

[Beckon]

You can't prove anyone because the proof is not there, per RJ. There are only hints. I think the hints point to Graendal. You think they point to Lanfear. It's all opinion and assumption until RJ decides to put us out of our misery.

[Tenshin_Xo]

If lanfear had already been reincarnated as Cyndane, Asmodean wouldn't have recognized her. If she was able to leave Finnland, how do you suppose she died afterwards? In either case, as Magicana points out, she isn't intuitively obvious becuase the reader is given information that places her out of comission.

[johnnysd]

By this point the reader believes that she is dead. She went through with Moiraine and it is after the Ter'Angreal catches fire that Lan thinks she is dead. We assume that Lanfear dies too' date=' because of the severing of the tie to the normal world.[/quote']

 

I do not agree with that. Why would anyone assume she is DEAD? I have never gotten that. Nothing points to death being a certainty going through the frame. No one who has used them before died. Why would you assume it is different with Lanfear?

[Tenshin_Xo]

A) the thing caught fire and melted as she went through it.

B) Lan's bond was severed, note that it did not become severed when Moiraine went through the gate in Tear.

 

If she isn't dead at that point, she was at least stuck.

[Beckon]

By this point the reader believes that she is dead. She went through with Moiraine and it is after the Ter'Angreal catches fire that Lan thinks she is dead. We assume that Lanfear dies too' date=' because of the severing of the tie to the normal world.[/quote']

 

I do not agree with that. Why would anyone assume she is DEAD? I have never gotten that. Nothing points to death being a certainty going through the frame. No one who has used them before died. Why would you assume it is different with Lanfear?

 

She's not using the doorway. She's being pulled through while engaged in a channeling battle with Moiraine and in the process melts the doorway behind her and presumably destroys the connection between our world and theirs. There's no evidence to suggest that, with the ter'angreal destroyed, the 'finns are even able to send her back to Randland, let alone willing.

[Beckon]

A) the thing caught fire and melted as she went through it.

B) Lan's bond was severed' date=' note that it did not become severed when Moiraine went through the gate in Tear.

 

If she isn't dead at that point, she was at least stuck.[/quote']

 

The connection between the worlds wasn't destroyed when she went through the Tear doorway which could account for the bond breaking. But yeah...she melted the door. I sincerely doubt the 'finns considered it business as usual.

[Tenshin_Xo]

Right, the breaking of the bond is evidence that the connection was severed by the melting of the door. It also appears at that point in time that Moiraine is dead, and by inference that Lanfear is too. Granted we learn otherwise later on, but at that moment, we believe it to be evidence of her death, Lan says as much just after.

 

Some how I think the finns were mighty ticked, seeing as how they feed somehow off the visitors.

[Magicana]

By this point the reader believes that she is dead. She went through with Moiraine and it is after the Ter'Angreal catches fire that Lan thinks she is dead. We assume that Lanfear dies too' date=' because of the severing of the tie to the normal world.[/quote']

 

I do not agree with that. Why would anyone assume she is DEAD? I have never gotten that. Nothing points to death being a certainty going through the frame. No one who has used them before died. Why would you assume it is different with Lanfear?

 

As stated above, she was pulled through.

 

To use an example, you live in the mountains with just one entrance through which all your food comes in. Some people come through and knock down the entrance, blocking your access to food. Sure, things can be flown in, but it is very difficult to do it that way and hardly anyone has access to flight. You would kill the person that did it. However, they recognize the evil of Lanfear and that she is Forsaken. They would probably blame her and knock her off. They weren't in any mood to grant her any wishes as she had just cut off their only supply to humans in their mind.

[Cybertrolloc]

You know what I find really interesting? A lot of people are so bent on disproving Graendal theories. Why? Nobody ever seems to have an alternate suspect. Pointing out ways in which this or that detail of this or that theory may be incorrect doesn't disprove anything. It doesn't make anyone else any more likely to have done it. Asmodean is dead and somebody did it. Of the non-Forsaken suspects' date=' there is either little to no evidence that they could or would have done it, or in the case of Fain RJ has stated that it wasn't him. That leaves the Forsaken of which all can be eliminated except Graendal(Lanfear falls to lack of evidence IMO).[/quote']

It's not as bad as that, but healthy anyway. As long as it's not done in an impolite fashion at least. I had no problem eliminating Fain on the basis of what's in the books...but there's nothing in the way of proof of it for example.

On the basis of the last few posts...I take it all back :lol: Especially when the straw starts flying.

[Leopoled Boothe]

By this point the reader believes that she is dead. She went through with Moiraine and it is after the Ter'Angreal catches fire that Lan thinks she is dead. We assume that Lanfear dies too' date=' because of the severing of the tie to the normal world.[/quote']

 

Not true, not in all cases anyway. I myself was once that "reader" to which you refer and I did not for one second believe that either Lanfear or Moiraine was dead. I mean they went through a doorway, for the love of Pete. I walk through doorways at least 20X per day and I'm still alive and kickin'. Granted the doorways I walk through usually aren't in flames but if they were that would just give me that much motivation to quickly get through the doorway to the saftly of the other side. No, form the very moment I read the passage 13 years ago I wholeheartedly believed that Lanfear and Moiraine were both alive and kickin' in Finnland.

[Tenshin_Xo]

So what did you make of Lan's bond to Moiraine being broken?

[Leopoled Boothe]

I believe the plan was for the two to be in Caemlyn, and the three were to link there and Travel to Illian (no, this is not in the book; I'm just theorizing).

 

Case in point right here. This was the inspiration for this topic in the first place. Every "Graendal did it" theory I have ever read used this idea of Graen, Lanfear, and Rhavin meeting the Camylen to link and travel together as part of their argument. I had always thought that no such arangement was never made and now I have it right out the mouth of a "Graendal did it" supporter that no where in TFoH was this argangement ever made. Without this I see no evidence, or even a hint, that Graendal would have been in Camelyn at the approprate time. In fact I remember the oppisite arangement being made, I would swear that in the last meeting between the four FS Rhavin told the other three that they had no more business in Camelyn and ordered them to stay out hence forward. Not that this would stop Graendal for going to Camelyn, but still there is not good reason to believe that she was there at the appropriate time.

[Leopoled Boothe]

So what did you make of Lan's bond to Moiraine being broken?

 

Well I thought of two possibilites:

 

1. Moiraine was stilled. I mean she was engaged in combat with a much more powerfull channeler and when channels do battle they often do attemt to still one another, especally the particularly nasty ones like Lanfear.

 

2. Moiraine was in a completely different dimention to which the portal had just been cut off. As strong as AS/warder bonds are, I would still have trouble believing that the bond can transverse dimentional barriers without a portal in the immediate vicinity. Granted there are at least two other portals to Finnland, but neither Lan nor Moiraine was anywhere near either of them. Lan's bond was sustained when Moiraine entered Finnland via the doorway in Tear b/c Lan was also in Tear and therefore the bond could be sustained through the doorway. However, after Moiraine entered the 2nd doorway the portal was abruptly cut off and therefore so was Lan's bond.

[Tenshin_Xo]

"Lanfear, Graendal, Rahvin and Sammael are plotting together."

"Do you know they are drawing Rand al'Thor to attack Sammael? But when he does, he will find the others as well, waiting to trap him between them. At least, he will find Graendal and Rahvin. I think Lanfear plays another game, one the others know nothing about."

Earlier in the book Birgitte sees them together, while still bound to the horn. Before that, Lanfear tries to tempt Rand to go to Caemlyn.

I mean heck, the prologue is Rahvin, Graendal, Lanfear and Sammael meeting, and beginning the planning of an ambush.

 

 

If Moiraine and Lanfear were trapped in Finnland, how did Lanfear then kill Asmodean in a way that he would recognize her, hundreds of miles from a gate to the finnlands?

[BrainFireBob]

Cyndane and Moghedian do NOT equal "betrayers who will kill you on sight" and fall rather in the "may have valuable information and I may be in trouble for slaying them out of hand" category, which is why the argument re: Her treatment of those two establishing she'd compel Asmo is not valid.

[Beckon]

I believe the plan was for the two to be in Caemlyn' date=' and the three were to link there and Travel to Illian (no, this is not in the book; I'm just theorizing). [/quote']

 

Case in point right here. This was the inspiration for this topic in the first place. Every "Graendal did it" theory I have ever read used this idea of Graen, Lanfear, and Rhavin meeting the Camylen to link and travel together as part of their argument. I had always thought that no such arangement was never made and now I have it right out the mouth of a "Graendal did it" supporter that no where in TFoH was this argangement ever made. Without this I see no evidence, or even a hint, that Graendal would have been in Camelyn at the approprate time. In fact I remember the oppisite arangement being made, I would swear that in the last meeting between the four FS Rhavin told the other three that they had no more business in Camelyn and ordered them to stay out hence forward. Not that this would stop Graendal for going to Camelyn, but still there is not good reason to believe that she was there at the appropriate time.

 

No offense but you might want to reread the book, not to mention my prior posts in this thread instead of pulling a single sentence out of context. The plan between the four is in the books. It begins in the prologue with a meeting at the palace in Caemlyn, apparently arranged by Lanfear who puts herself forth as being the one to spy on Rand. Birgitte later takes Nynaeve in TAR to spy on Moggy spying on them, while Rhavin specifically explains the plan to Sammael who is waffling because he's not a part of the planned link. On the way to Cairhien from the Waste the camp is attacked by a too small group of trollocs ostentatiously shouting "Sammael and the Golden Bees". Melindhra attemps to kill Mat with a dagger bearing the Golden Bees. Moggy explains it to Nynaeve quite concisely as quoted by Tenshin right after Nynaeve slaps the a'dam on her and right before she tells Nynaeve Rand plans to go to Caemlyn.

 

Melindhra attacking Mat is, IMO the trap being sprung. They fully expect Rand to hare off to Illian at this point to avenge his best friend. The only part I'm theorizing about is that they planned for Graendal to be in Caemlyn on that day to make fewer trips for Lanfear and so they could link someplace safe before Traveling to Illian.

 

Again, no offense, but need I remind you that you began this thread for the purpose of assuming that Slayer did it based on no more evidence than that he seemingly went into the Tower of Genjei (which at this point in the story we don't know is connected to the doorways at all) toward the end of the prior book?

 

On the point of Lanfear dieing...yet again...she didn't just stroll through the door. She was pulled through, while channeling and DESTROYED it behind her. Lan's bond broke which, as far as we know at that point in the story, can only be acheived through the death of his Aes Sedai. Later we find out stilling can do it. So there are three possibilities:

 

1) Moiraine's dead and likely Lanfear as well

2) the connection between the worlds has been severed which likely means the 'finns can't send her back out

3) Moiraine was severed and likely Lanfear as well rendering her rather ill-equipped to kill Asmo. The stilling notion is further borne out by the fact that Cyndane is not as strong as Lanfear used to be.

 

I didn't believe they were dead either, and neither did most readers I expect, but it's not because of any evidence the book gave us, other than perhaps the "you're a fool" comment made, I believe, by Amys when Rand says they're dead. We believed it because we wanted to.

 

*sigh* I dearly wish anti-Graendal people would play by the same rules they try to impose on those of us who think Graendal did it. If you're going to condemn a theory because it makes too many assumptions, you should probably consider limiting the assumptions you make in your own theory.

[Luckers]

Just a side point, there is proof that neither Lanfear nor Moiraine died when they went through the gate. We have Cyndanes comment in Winter's Heart dealing with her strength beforer she was 'held' by the Finns. This shows that she was alive for at least some time--we don't know how long, though to me 'held' implies at least some length of time. Moiraine we know survived as of KoD, though the hints were there prior to it.

[Tenshin_Xo]

I think the point was that the reader's general opinion as of TFoH would be that they were either dead, or stilled and/or trapped. In either case there is little room for either to be responsible for Asmodean's death, otherwise they would have been featured outside the Finn's world since. Either would have immediately gone to Rand. Cyndane post-ressurection has been prevented from doing this by her Cou'souvra(sp).

[Luckers]

Definately. The obviousness argument rules her out as the killer. I was just pointing out that neither actually died straight away.

[Beckon]

Exactly. As of the moment we first read it there's no reason to assume they lived. The only way we know of for the warder bond to break is the death of the Aes Sedai. We've also had it rammed down our throat that channeling around strange ter'angreal is dangerous and can result in death or severing. Moiraine is quite alarmed when she learns Rand channelled inside the Tear doorway.

 

I think most people suspect they lived but we don't get any actual evidence til Min thinks about her viewing that Rand will fail without a woman who's dead and gone.