How different is too different?

[Skipp]

12 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

Great summary of one of the things that really makes me want to stop watching the show.  Amazon took a great character and just turned him into another character completely.    Instead of of the mischievous youth, who always  keeps his promises and is loyal to his friends.  We get the above, damaged boy plus being a thief.    If the show staff had bothered with the source they would know that redemption arcs come from other characters like Ingtar.  Anyway this is another dead trolloc so I won't stab it anymore.

But this also indicates an issue with RJ's writing.  Mat was not a mischievous youth, he was 20 years old.  By all rights the boys should have already been married and had children by that time.  I certainly am one of those readers who thought the the boys were all 15/16 and that the story took place over 5 years until I looked closer.

 

I feel we still get the core character of Mat from tEotW in the show, minus playing pranks.  He is still witty, charming, lazy and willing to help his friends.  He just seems more... I dunno, real maybe in the show.  The biggest change for Show Mat compared to book Mat is that they saddled him with responsibility.  Not that he is responsible person or that he wants the responsibility but that this responsibility has been thrust on him by life and he is unwilling to shrug it off. 

 

But hey, to each their own.  I am on the record for not liking the character of Mat in tEotW and tGH.

[AdamA]

For the record, I don't believe the banana taped to a wall was ever critically acclaimed or widely thought of as great art comparable to David. It was mostly a publicity stunt where a guy paid $120,000 for it and then ate it. At best, it's performance art commenting on the basic obscenity of the fact that, while some people in the world starve, others have the means to help but instead spend $120,000 on bananas. It's probably meant to make fun of NFTs or something, but the banana on its own is not any kind of art.

[Cauthonfan4]

53 minutes ago, Humbugged2 said:

But he was dreadful in nearly all of books 1-3 ( until chpt 18)

Not nearly to the level they tanked him in season 1.

53 minutes ago, Humbugged2 said:

He was gollumed early on

And the show decided to just make him bad straight out the gate. All because rafe thought mat struggled with the dark side of himself the most (hint, not even close; but then again rafe didn't even think Rand was the main character).

 

 

[Cauthonfan4]

37 minutes ago, Skipp said:

The biggest change for Show Mat compared to book Mat is that they saddled him with responsibility

Making him a thief who steals from neighbors and the dead and who abandons his friends seems a pretty big change. Mat in yhe books was willing to go into the stone of tear to rescue someone, something brgitte admits she would not likely do. 

 

And if you want to say they had to do that because he didn't come back...

They could have said he was still recovering from his healing, and had to stay behind. Instead moiraine makes him out to be a villain and sends reds after him.

 

One is a heck of a lot more believable and the other screws up who Mat is. But then again that seems par for the course for Rafe.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Cauthonfan4

[Juan Farstrider]

10 hours ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 

Why is this such a common attitude amongst those critical of the show? It's exasperating.

 

I don't really want to go on and on about this as I've covered a lot of what I think with posts to ilovezam already. I just don't think trying to give Agelmar a more interesting slant is the crime against the novels that it is used as. It was poorly done, like practically everything in episode 8, but I don't think it fundamentally alters the Borderlands. There is plenty of scope for a nation on the front line having a leader make mistakes. 

That you see what they did to him, ignore what it says about the command structure in a place that is in a state of war facing creatures the rest of the world thinks are mythical, in order to call the changes to him "interesting", sounds like rationalizing and not reasoning. That you don't see it as a crime against the books does not mean it is not a crime against the books. But, rather than deal with what Rafe has done with military command in the borderlands now that you have been presented it by a few people, you're "exasperated". Yeah, I bet you are.

You'd be relieved if you could just say "wow, I didn't think about it that way. That change really was for the worse." I find THAT interesting, that you're still defending the show even after the flaws in the choices are pointed out. What's funny is how the show defenders can NEVER admit the points made, and this one is as clear as day, are valid and the show has made indefensible changes. Rather than defend them you call this interesting and claim exasperation.

It must be frustrating trying to cling to the idea that this was good when you have been given so many examples of why it is actually bad. But, hey I hope you enjoy season 2 just as much as you did this thing they gave us as season 1. Rest assured you will not have me to detract from that enjoyment for you. 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Juan Farstrider
fix typos

[Juan Farstrider]

8 hours ago, ilovezam said:

Maybe in this TuRnInG oF tHe WhEeL the Shadow was of no threat whatsoever historically, until that horde from Episode 8.

 

But yeah I would think if the commander of the Shienar armies is dumb enough to refuse help and constantly underestimate the enemy and belittle allies because "we've always done it ourselves", they should have died out long ago. A brilliant general holding back an overwhelming force against poor odds is so cool, and not the best character with whom to portray "male arrogance", IMO, especially with their awesome relationship with Lan. I loved how he recounted Lan's origin story with a "sad pride in his eyes". And it's much better development for Lan than the Stepin stuff, too.

 

 

 

But it begs the question, they have always done what themselves? Stare down and non-existent mytical enemy? Swing their members around in a display of "male arrogance"? Both are silly. The first rebellious young man would overthrow the whole system and have all-night raves/ragers where the trollocs aren't, and get shredded by them when they become a reality to deal with. The whole concept of "male arrogance" seems especially in this military context to be like complaining that the tall large guy under the basket doesn't pass as much as the the little guys by the three point line. Sorry, I can't give any ground on this. The more I think about it, the more it really annoys me because it undercuts a bit part of what motivated RJ to write this: his time in the military. 

[Cauthonfan4]

6 minutes ago, Juan Farstrider said:

his time in the military

Here's what I find hilarious. 

according to Agelmar, they have apparently always defended that gap with its very crappy defenses (no siege?) For a very long time.

During the battle all it took was about 200 go overrun them. So are the showrunners really going to tell us that they all that attacked them over all those years were very small armies? Seems a waste of resources on the dark ones side to keep throwing tiny armies at that wall if you could overrun it with a couple hundred easily. Not to mention why build a wall so high if all you've ever seen was maybe 200 trollocs tops.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Cauthonfan4

[Skipp]

30 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

Making him a thief who steals from neighbors and the dead and who abandons his friends seems a pretty big change. Mat in yhe books was willing to go into the stone of tear to rescue someone, something brgitte admits she would not likely do. 

 

And if you want to say they had to do that because he didn't come back...

They could have said he was still recovering from his healing, and had to stay behind. Instead moiraine makes him out to be a villain and sends reds after him.

 

One is a heck of a lot more believable and the other screws up who Mat is. But then again that seems par for the course for Rafe.

It is not like Mat ever tried to steal eggs from a farmer in the books.  Mat abandons Rand in tGH once he learns he can channel.

 

Yes they could have had a line saying they left Mat in TV for healing, but it would have looked quite weird for him to be in the shots at the waygate.  From what I understand they did not have access the the location the waygate was at after returning to shooting.

 

I firmly believe Moraine sent he message to the Reds because they wouldn't ask any further questions about capturing Mat, them attempting to gentle Mat wouldn't do anything and thirdly Liandrin already knows about Mat.  Maybe season 2 will prove me wrong on this points but that is how I took that scene.  I do not believe they are trying to make Mat a villian or some such.  RJ2 said that Mat will be moving onto his arc from book 3 onwards for the show.

[Juan Farstrider]

5 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

Here's what I find hilarious. 

according to Agelmar, they have apparently always defended that gap with its very crappy defenses (no siege?) For a very long time.

During the battle all it took was about 200 go overrun them. So are the showrunners really going to tell us that they all that attacked them over all those years were very small armies? Seems a waste of resources on the dark ones side to keep throwing tiny armies at that wall if you could overrun it with a couple hundred easily.

I'm sure someone will make an analogy to a pool shark playing sub-par only to get his mark to bet big money, and thus make Rafe a genius. That would deny what happened to Malkier, which would then be spun as an "interesting" spin on the male arrogance of one of the greatest military minds of his day. 

[Cauthonfan4]

2 minutes ago, Skipp said:

but it would have looked quite weird for him to be in the shots at the waygate

So reshoot those shots. Or edit him out.

But if you want to talk about weird.

Moiraine calling him evil and sending reds after him when her last interaction with him was healing him? Weird.

5 minutes ago, Skipp said:

RJ2 said that Mat will be moving onto his arc from book 3 onwards for the show

Don't call him RJ2. He doesn't deserve to be held in the same breath as Jordan after what he's written.

[WhiteVeils]

There are 60 Fades, with 5-10,000 Trollocs in this fight (1 fade = 100 Trollocs is the equation from the books, I noted in my reading yesterday). The last big fight, per the show discussion, was with Agelmar's father's, against 1000 trollocs in the gap.   That was a generation ago.
(Numbers from S01E08).

Fighting 1000 is different than fighting 10,000.   1000 will fall to concerted cavalry, especially if you take out the 10 fades controlling them.  1000 trollocs would never be able to climb to reach the arrowslots.

Now, in the books, Aglemar just rides out in the middle of the trollocs and does not use any fortifications at all.  So using crossbows and fortifications (the fortified city and the wall) is an improvement, even if they hadn't had time to build more defenses. 

[WhiteVeils]

5 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

So reshoot those shots. Or edit him out.

But if you want to talk about weird.

Moiraine calling him evil and sending reds after him when her last interaction with him was healing him? Weird.

Don't call him RJ2. He doesn't deserve to be held in the same breath as Jordan after what he's written.

If Rafe had done it a different way, rest assured, it'd be complained about just as much.

[Humbugged2]

12 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

So reshoot those shots. Or edit him out.

But if you want to talk about weird.

 

 

How could they re shoot it when he was not there  .? And how could they edit him out when he was in every shot?

 

He would have to be there for somebody to tell him he was not leaving , and if they could no longer get to the site of the Waygate to film it all again what then ?

Edited January 25, 2022 by Humbugged2

[Pukel-man]

9 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

If Rafe had done it a different way, rest assured, it'd be complained about just as much.

Or, Rafe could have followed Benioff & Weiss' approach with Game of Thrones, and kept to the book content as much as possible, and won accolades from old fans and new ones. It's not necessary to alienate the old fans to win new ones, it's possible to satisfy both.

 

 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Pukel-man

[Cauthonfan4]

7 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

The last big fight, per the show discussion, was with Agelmar's father's, against 1000 trollocs in the gap.   That was a generation ago

So if that wall held against 1k how did it get overrun by the first couple hundred to the wall this time?

8 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

1000 trollocs would never be able to climb to reach the arrowslots.

They didn't need 1k to reach the Arrowslits. A couple hundred did that.

9 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

Now, in the books, Aglemar just rides out in the middle of the trollocs and does not use any fortifications at all.  So using crossbows and fortifications (the fortified city and the wall) is an improvement, even if they hadn't had time to build more defenses.

In the books agalmar knew he was outmatched and knew he was just there to buy time for moiraine and company to do what they were doing. He also actually asked her to help first.

8 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

If Rafe had done it a different way, rest assured, it'd be complained about just as much

Can you be sure of that? I think having moiraine send reds after him is about the worst thing they could have done short of killing him.

[notpropaganda73]

23 minutes ago, Juan Farstrider said:

That you see what they did to him, ignore what it says about the command structure in a place that is in a state of war facing creatures the rest of the world thinks are mythical, in order to call the changes to him "interesting", sounds like rationalizing and not reasoning. That you don't see it as a crime against the books does not mean it is not a crime against the books. But, rather than deal with what Rafe has done with military command in the borderlands now that you have been presented it by a few people, you're "exasperated". Yeah, I bet you are.

You'd be relieved if you could just say "wow, I didn't think about it that way. That change really was for the worse." I find THAT interesting, that you're still defending the show even after the flaws in the choices are pointed out. What's funny is how the show defenders can NEVER admit the points made, and this one is as clear as day, are valid and the show has made indefensible changes. Rather than defend them you call this interesting and claim exasperation.

It must be frustrating trying to cling to the idea that this was good when you have been given so many examples of why it is actually bad. But, hey I hope you enjoy season 2 just as much as you did this thing they gave us as season 1. Rest assured you will not have me to detract from that enjoyment for you. 

 

Wow. 

 

Did you ever consider the idea that maybe I just don't see it the way you do, and it's not about defending the show or ignoring flaws? The fact you characterise me as "defending the show even after the flaws are pointed out" or refusing to "admit the points made" and that the changes are "indefensible" says to me you haven't really paid attention to anything I've posted. Not that you're obligated to, but maybe take a second before you decide that everyone enjoying the show are incapable of acknowledging flaws. 

 

Take a look at any of my posts about Perrin, or the interactions with ilovezam in this very thread, or responding to Lethira about the poor communication of ideas in the script. I am not frustrated and "clinging" to anything, but I am frustrated at being characterised in the same way relentlessly by posts such as yours above. I get frustrated that many of the critical posts come across as needlessly adversarial, rather than engaging on the topic. 
 

In terms of why I was exasperated, it's not to do with the arguments presented, it was saying that I was ignoring something or refusing to acknowledge it because it didn't fit with how I feel about the show. I don't understand the need to pigeonhole me in that way. I can easily see a leader like show-Agelmar being in charge of a Borderland nation, and if it was explored more than I think it would be interesting on screen, to have a Borderland leader proud and blinded to their needs. Call that rationalising if you want. 

 

I'm comfortable with how I see the show. I'm optimistic for S2 but I don't feel the need to justify things I think were terrible in it. You don't see me saying that Loial was a valuable character in the show, or that Padan Fain was a good villain, or that they built up the Dark One well through the season. If I'm discussing things in the show with those critical of it, it's because I see it a different way, that's all. 

[Cauthonfan4]

11 minutes ago, Humbugged2 said:

How could they re shoot it when he was not there  .? And how could they edit him out when he was in every shot?

Reshoot it without him there ofcourse. And have them go "where's mat?"

"He just got healed and is too weak to come with us, he's recovering"

4 minutes ago, Pukel-man said:

It's not necessary to alienate the old fans to win new ones, it's possible to satisfy both

Cough. Harry potter.

Cough. Lotr. 

Cough. Game of thrones.

Cough. Hunger Games.

 

I'm sure I'm forgetting some well loved fantasy adaptation.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Cauthonfan4

[Juan Farstrider]

2 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 

Wow. 

 

Did you ever consider the idea that maybe I just don't see it the way you do, and it's not about defending the show or ignoring flaws? The fact you characterise me as "defending the show even after the flaws are pointed out" or refusing to "admit the points made" and that the changes are "indefensible" says to me you haven't really paid attention to anything I've posted. Not that you're obligated to, but maybe take a second before you decide that everyone enjoying the show are incapable of acknowledging flaws. 

 

Take a look at any of my posts about Perrin, or the interactions with ilovezam in this very thread, or responding to Lethira about the poor communication of ideas in the script. I am not frustrated and "clinging" to anything, but I am frustrated at being characterised in the same way relentlessly by posts such as yours above. I get frustrated that many of the critical posts come across as needlessly adversarial, rather than engaging on the topic. 
 

In terms of why I was exasperated, it's not to do with the arguments presented, it was saying that I was ignoring something or refusing to acknowledge it because it didn't fit with how I feel about the show. I don't understand the need to pigeonhole me in that way. I can easily see a leader like show-Agelmar being in charge of a Borderland nation, and if it was explored more than I think it would be interesting on screen, to have a Borderland leader proud and blinded to their needs. Call that rationalising if you want. 

 

I'm comfortable with how I see the show. I'm optimistic for S2 but I don't feel the need to justify things I think were terrible in it. You don't see me saying that Loial was a valuable character in the show, or that Padan Fain was a good villain, or that they built up the Dark One well through the season. If I'm discussing things in the show with those critical of it, it's because I see it a different way, that's all. 

Oh I get you don't see it the way I do. You refuse to consider another perspective if it undercuts the notion that the show was well done. It makes no sense, regardless of you calling it interesting or not. What you're not doing is admitting you are not trying to see it more fully by incorporating other perspectives, and you do not want to.

Being obtuse is not the same as having an opinion. Even having an opinion is not the same as gaining more information and broadening  one's perspective to enhance and flesh out an opinion over time. You're being purposefully obtuse.

You found him interesting, and I'm saying he's laughably bad as a commander and leader. The change is from a great commander to a pathetic and petty one: interesting, or bad? What was interesting about that change? What interesting thing did it give you to ponder? Does the change cheapen him, now that you've seen other perspectives on it? Or are you glad he was cheapened? How does taking a stalwart character from the book and making him pathetic not count as a crime against the book? Surely you must have reasons and good answers for these questions, so I can see what is so interesting about this change. I'd love to have my perspective broadened.

[Humbugged2]

11 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

Reshoot it without him there ofcourse. And have them go "where's mat?"

"He just got healed and is too weak to come with us, he's recovering"

 

So spunk $5-10 million on an episode ,get Salli back (oh they could not because of COVID), re-film half the episode (oh they could not COVID AGAIN) ,they could not as he was in every scene at the Waygate (and they could not use the site because COVID). 

 

How would they have gotten round all of that

[Skipp]

33 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

Reshoot it without him there ofcourse. And have them go "where's mat?"

"He just got healed and is too weak to come with us, he's recovering"

Once again I don't believe they had access to the location of where the Waygate scenes were shot.  Where were they suppose to do the reshoots?

 

51 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

So reshoot those shots. Or edit him out.

But if you want to talk about weird.

Moiraine calling him evil and sending reds after him when her last interaction with him was healing him? Weird.

Don't call him RJ2. He doesn't deserve to be held in the same breath as Jordan after what he's written.

 

I don't recall Moiraine every saying Mat is evil.  Says there is a darkness in him that the dagger was feeding off of, but that isn't the same as evil.  She she sent the Reds after him so he wouldn't wander free and she would have access to him if she survived.  At least that is how I took it, certainly not in a malicious way that you seem to be implying.

 

And no, I don't think i will stop referring to Rafe Judkins as RJ2 as those are his initials and the 2 helps prevent confusing him with RJ.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Skipp

[Skipp]

41 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

Cough. Harry potter.

Cough. Lotr. 

Cough. Game of thrones.

Cough. Hunger Games.

 

I'm sure I'm forgetting some well loved fantasy adaptation.

 Harry Potter; first 2 films follow the books very closely and are also the worst films of the series.  Massive changes to stories and characters starting in Azkaban.

 

Lotr;  Major changes to the characters of Aragorn, Arwen, Faramir.  Large story threads dropped or rewritten.   How did Merry come to have a weapon that could hurt the Witchking?

 

Hunger Games; Major story elements added into the movies that were not in the books. Several character combined and shifted around. Movies 2-4 had plotlines changed

 

GoT;  Didn't watch past Season 4/5 or read past book 4 and my memory of them isn't great so no further comment.

 

I also really enjoyed the Books and Movies for HP, LotR and Hunger Games.  Happily have them all in my collection

Edited January 25, 2022 by Skipp

[WhiteVeils]

43 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

So if that wall held against 1k how did it get overrun by the first couple hundred to the wall this time?

They didn't need 1k to reach the Arrowslits. A couple hundred did that.

In the books agalmar knew he was outmatched and knew he was just there to buy time for moiraine and company to do what they were doing. He also actually asked her to help first.

Can you be sure of that? I think having moiraine send reds after him is about the worst thing they could have done short of killing him.

This is not a couple hundred trollocs. (See attached photo).

 

Aglemar knew he was outmatched, and in the show he was just there to buy time for the messages to go out to the other countries of the world. (Moiraine didn't tell him what she was doing...because telling would be opening her, and her charges up to all sorts of questions). 

Today, Tarwin's Gap will fall. And then this city will fall after, no matter what we do. - Agelmar S01E08

He didn't know that the trolloc army was that big until after Moiraine had left (in the middle of the night).  The first anyone sees of the true army is in E08, Moiraine leaves in E07. Therefore he could not ask her for help..he can't ask for help he doesn't think he needs. He's only expecting 1000 or less, after all. He /does/ think Amelisa asked her for help anyway.

And Mat in the books has a huge fear of the One Power, a fear that drives him to ask for a way to protect himself from it and it motivates a lot of his words and actions, even though the One Power saved his life multiple times.  We know he does because we can read his thoughts.  Why does he have that fear? The show needs to explain it in something we can see visually, just like the show needed to show Perrin's fear of his own violence in a way we could see visually so we know he's thinking about it in many key moments. It's externalizing the internal.  Having Mat hurt by the Power, for example, from some Red Sisters, gives us a reason for his mistrust, and makes his (book) actions make sense when you don't have access to his internal thoughts. I can't know, of course, but I think if Mat had went, he'd still be hurt by the red ajah or some other female channelers in Season 2 anyway just to establish this character trait.

 

[Pukel-man]

17 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Once again I don't believe they had access to the location of where the Waygate scenes were shot.  Where were they suppose to do the reshoots?

 

The digital technology for compositing and post editing is quite good. They didn't need access to the location for the portal stones. Er, waygate. From the appearance of the finished product, that scene WAS a reshoot. That bit of them all standing there shouting at somebody who wasn't there? That very much looked like it was spliced in after the rest of the episode was in the can. That scene, in the context of the rest of the episode and the story, didn't make sense. Which again is bad writing, directing, and editing.

[WhiteVeils]

I'll add...I think that the battle was done the way it was, with the CG the way it was, was due to the expense of COVID and late reblocking the entire fight after losing your stuntmen, requiring physical distancing, and having to swing a huge bunch of CGI to cover for problems with no money left in the last few months of filming.  It definitely could have been better/clearer/etc.  But just like Harris not being in the last two episodes (and I /really/ wanted him there), some things have to be done as best as possible.  I don't think they made stupid choices...they did the best they could.

[WhiteVeils]

5 minutes ago, Pukel-man said:

The digital technology for compositing and post editing is quite good. They didn't need access to the location for the portal stones. Er, waygate. From the appearance of the finished product, that scene WAS a reshoot. That bit of them all standing there shouting at somebody who wasn't there? That very much looked like it was spliced in after the rest of the episode was in the can. That scene, in the context of the rest of the episode and the story, didn't make sense. Which again is bad writing, directing, and editing.

It wasn't a reshoot. It was a new shoot in the ways set with a composite image from the previous scene (shot months earlier) on a greenscreen in the portal.  If Mat didn't come to the hill at all, then instead of happy hugs on the hill, everyone would be going "Where's Mat?"  It completely changes the tenor of the scene.  And that would all need to be shot in front of the Waygate instead of behind it.

Edited January 25, 2022 by WhiteVeils