How different is too different?

[RhienneAgain]

For me, too different is when the characters are no longer recognisable as the characters from the books, or their major arcs of character growth disappear. 

 

I have no issue with adding/removing/editing plotlines, dialogue etc. (in fact I've actually enjoyed a lot of the episodes where new plot material has been introduced, like the extra material for Logain).

 

I feel like my 'line' has already been crossed for Lan and Nynaeve (the former is unrecognisable to me as the same character as Lan from the books, and the latter seems like she's already the Nynaeve from the end of the books so all her growth from the story is gone). Mat is looking like be may cross into the unrecognisable category, too. I'm still onboard as some of the characters do feel like the book characters (e.g. Moiraine, Liandrin, Logain), even if some have been short-changed in terms of action (e.g. Rand, Perrin, Egwene).

[Andra]

On 1/19/2022 at 8:21 PM, Raal Gurniss said:

But the showrunners have been utterly dismissive of criticism, so what chance of improvement? They even admitted they made the show this way to intentionally make many fans of the book unhappy.

 

Season two was well underway even before season one was unleashed so that just confirms it is going to be done in the same manner.

 

One of the things that kills me about this is that while they acknowledge doing things that will alienate book fans, they include things in the show that only book fans will understand without explanation.  And then they don't explain them.

 

Just one example is something that most book fans really loved - the Blood Snow scene.  A lot of details were included that book fans will recognize on sight, or which were excluded but readers will know without them being shown, but non-readers won't have a clue about.

Her spears.

Her veil (though they might understand this from the Aielman Thom and Mat buried in Breen Spring).

Who her attackers are, and what the insignia on their uniforms mean.

More importantly - when and where the battle took place.  And why.

 

Even now, after the season is over, has the Aiel War ever been mentioned?  Or did I just miss it?

Edited January 21, 2022 by Andra

[Raal Gurniss]

26 minutes ago, Andra said:

 

One of the things that kills me about this is that while they acknowledge doing things that will alienate book fans, they include things in the show that only book fans will understand without explanation.  And then they don't explain them.

 

Just one example is something that most book fans really loved - the Blood Snow scene.  A lot of details were included that book fans will recognize on sight, or that they will know without them being shown, but non-readers won't have a clue about.

Her spears.

Her veil (though they might understand this from the Aielman Thom and Mat buried in Breen Spring).

Who her attackers are, and what the insignia on their uniforms mean.

More importantly - when and where the battle took place.

It’s just poorly written exposition, I suspect they intended a half dozen more scenes that would have helped it make sense but cut them…No doubt they saw the whole lone heavily pregnant female taking on a group of even more heavily armoured males bit and had to include it, it does fit perfectly within the whole shows style….Just a shame that they couldn’t manage 5 extra minutes to get across what was going on to those not au fait with the story.

 

 

[fra85uk]

I would Have done the blood snow scene in parallel with Gitara Moroso foretelling ending up with her and Tigraine, cutting with her and Tigraine Dying at the same time

This in episode 1, after a first cold open with LLT creating Dragonmount

[Raal Gurniss]

11 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

I would Have done the blood snow scene in parallel with Gitara Moroso foretelling ending up with her and Tigraine, cutting with her and Tigraine Dying at the same time

This in episode 1, after a first cold open with LLT creating Dragonmount

Exactly! It wouldn’t have taken much and was something much needed that just about anyone could see!
 

Hence why they likely cut scenes from the script but kept the blood snow part because it fit with the aspect of the show they were promoting…Many shows/movies have similar scenes, the 1984 Dune movie is rife with such and a perfect example of how a scene has to be included but is made so barebones that it doesn’t include enough to make sense without having read the book.

[fra85uk]

First half Ep. 1

Cold open LTT

Cold open Tigraine/Gitara-young Moiraine

 

Cut to EF: overview of EF---> Mat training with father with quarterstaff, Perrin working at the forge, etc etc.

Cut to Rand/Fade sighting

Cut to Rand arriving in EF---> interactions with Mat, Nyn listening to him from behind while he is saying something stupid about her and Rand trying to signal him to stop, Nynaeve on the verge on to explode--->Padan Fain arriving, Mat escapes Nyn scolding---> Padan Fain has news (false dragon)

 

Cut Logain in Gheldean

 

end first half of episode

    

 

[Cauthonfan4]

22 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

Cut to EF: overview of EF---> Mat training with father with quarterstaff, Perrin working at the forge, etc etc.

Cut to Rand/Fade sighting

Cut to Rand arriving in EF---> interactions with Mat, Nyn listening to him from behind while he is saying something stupid about her and Rand trying to signal him to stop, Nynaeve on the verge on to explode--->Padan Fain arriving, Mat escapes Nyn scolding---> Padan Fain has news (false dragon)

Needs a scene with Egwene getting her initiation into being an adult (Hair braiding) but not joining the womans circle (because I just don't see how it would be advisable to have someone who has literally just hit adulthood be on any sort of advisory council/governing body), and a scene of Nynaeve healing or maybe gathering healing herbs.  Can't just have it be all about the boys.

Edited January 22, 2022 by Cauthonfan4

[Raal Gurniss]

23 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

First half Ep. 1

Cold open LTT

Cold open Tigraine/Gitara-young Moiraine

 

Cut to EF: overview of EF---> Mat training with father with quarterstaff, Perrin working at the forge, etc etc.

Cut to Rand/Fade sighting

Cut to Rand arriving in EF---> interactions with Mat, Nyn listening to him from behind while he is saying something stupid about her and Rand trying to signal him to stop, Nynaeve on the verge on to explode--->Padan Fain arriving, Mat escapes Nyn scolding---> Padan Fain has news (false dragon)

 

Cut Logain in Gheldean

 

end first half of episode

    

 

Well they got the “cut” part down to a tee.

[fra85uk]

2 hours ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

Needs a scene with Egwene getting her initiation into being an adult (Hair braiding) but not joining the womans circle (because I just don't see how it would be advisable to have someone who has literally just hit adulthood be on any sort of advisory council/governing body), and a scene of Nynaeve healing or maybe gathering healing herbs.  Can't just have it be all about the boys.

Yes of course it is part of the block presenting EF5, just didn't Have the time to write it and went for "etc"

[Yojimbo]

4 hours ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

Needs a scene with Egwene getting her initiation into being an adult (Hair braiding) but not joining the womans circle (because I just don't see how it would be advisable to have someone who has literally just hit adulthood be on any sort of advisory council/governing body), and a scene of Nynaeve healing or maybe gathering healing herbs.  Can't just have it be all about the boys.

My interpretation of that scene is that they no longer have the hair braiding as part of a girl being recognized as a woman, but only when they are initiated into the women's circle.  After all, it seems pretty evident that Egwene's parents know that she and Rand are shacking up, so she must already be considered an adult.  Of course, in Rafeland you never know.  Maybe sex between children is ok in this version of things.   

[Cauthonfan4]

1 minute ago, Yojimbo said:

but only when they are initiated into the women's circle.

Even as aged up as they are from the books I wouldn't place them as that old though, and she still seems awfully young to be on any advisory council. I'd say the same of the boys too.

[Yojimbo]

2 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

Even as aged up as they are from the books I wouldn't place them as that old though, and she still seems awfully young to be on any advisory council. I'd say the same of the boys too.

I totally agree that she would seem to be too young to be on the women's circle, since even aged up she is supposedly only 20.  But because she is super-duper possible DR and T'Averen Egwene and not young and inexperienced Egwene having her become a member of the WC fits right in with things in Rafeland.   

[Andra]

13 hours ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

Even as aged up as they are from the books I wouldn't place them as that old though, and she still seems awfully young to be on any advisory council. I'd say the same of the boys too.

It's almost as if Rafe isn't using the initiation to be for the Women's Circle, but simply as her coming of age.  The episode never even mentions the Women's Circle - just as it never mentions the Village Council.  Or the Mayor.  And it implies that Marin is the innkeeper, not Bran.

 

But then, it isn't Emond's Field anymore in the show.  It's a town called "Two Rivers."  Which, even though it's geographically more inaccessible being in the actual mountains, is somehow not isolated from the outside world.

Edited January 23, 2022 by Andra

[SingleMort]

On 1/21/2022 at 7:53 PM, Andra said:

 

One of the things that kills me about this is that while they acknowledge doing things that will alienate book fans, they include things in the show that only book fans will understand without explanation.  And then they don't explain them.

 

Just one example is something that most book fans really loved - the Blood Snow scene.  A lot of details were included that book fans will recognize on sight, or which were excluded but readers will know without them being shown, but non-readers won't have a clue about.

Her spears.

Her veil (though they might understand this from the Aielman Thom and Mat buried in Breen Spring).

Who her attackers are, and what the insignia on their uniforms mean.

More importantly - when and where the battle took place.  And why.

 

Even now, after the season is over, has the Aiel War ever been mentioned?  Or did I just miss it?

Also the herron mark on the sword which is shown mutiple times in the season and not explained  If you don't want to explain it why bother showing it? (seriously, it could have been explained in 10 seconds of dialogue) Same goes for Perrin's wolf stuff, the Seanchan, the oath rod, the took us to Tar Valon and didn't even explain the Ajahs. In many ways I actually think the non book readers are getting the worse end of the deal not because characters or plots are being cut but because some of the ones that are kept in are not being fully explained.

[Ralph]

1 hour ago, SingleMort said:

Also the herron mark on the sword which is shown mutiple times in the season and not explained  If you don't want to explain it why bother showing it? (seriously, it could have been explained in 10 seconds of dialogue) Same goes for Perrin's wolf stuff, the Seanchan, the oath rod, the took us to Tar Valon and didn't even explain the Ajahs. In many ways I actually think the non book readers are getting the worse end of the deal not because characters or plots are being cut but because some of the ones that are kept in are not being fully explained.

 

Heron Mark in the show is only a way of identifying Tam. We will see if it is anything else later on. 

Tbh, I always found it strange that the mark that has to be earned can just be given as a gift father to son. 

 

I don't agree re the others. 

Oath Rod and Ajahs have been explained plenty. 

Wolf brotherhood is fairly obvious and still building. 

Seanchan is a few seconds at the end of the series, you wouldn't expect explanation 

[Raal Gurniss]

3 hours ago, Ralph said:

 

Heron Mark in the show is only a way of identifying Tam. We will see if it is anything else later on. 

Tbh, I always found it strange that the mark that has to be earned can just be given as a gift father to son. 

 

 

 
What do you mean? It’s a Heron mark on the sword isn’t it? The sword was gifted, the mark is just on the sword..That part wasn’t transferred, people just see the mark on the blade and make assumption.

 

The sword is valuable because of that…The show discarded this when Matt and Rand stayed at the inn in favour of making the innkeeper a darkfriend instead of just a greedy thief/murderer, 

 

Can’t speak for the show, but in the books it’s a reoccurring theme that worthiness of the Heron mark is brought up and whether Rand has earned it, either on the sword or off the sword…You could argue that Tam gave the mark rather than the sword as something for Rand to aspire to I suppose….
 

Point is the title of blademaster wasn’t a gift Tam could gift! Why would he? It would be a terrible curse with swordsmen queuing up to duel him…

[Ralph]

4 hours ago, Raal Gurniss said:

 
What do you mean? It’s a Heron mark on the sword isn’t it? The sword was gifted, the mark is just on the sword..That part wasn’t transferred, people just see the mark on the blade and make assumption.

 

The sword is valuable because of that…The show discarded this when Matt and Rand stayed at the inn in favour of making the innkeeper a darkfriend instead of just a greedy thief/murderer, 

 

Can’t speak for the show, but in the books it’s a reoccurring theme that worthiness of the Heron mark is brought up and whether Rand has earned it, either on the sword or off the sword…You could argue that Tam gave the mark rather than the sword as something for Rand to aspire to I suppose….
 

Point is the title of blademaster wasn’t a gift Tam could gift! Why would he? It would be a terrible curse with swordsmen queuing up to duel him…

That's exactly the question

 

Blademaster is a status you only get by killing another blademaster, iirc

 

And only a blademaster has the right to a heronmark sword. 

 

So why aren't there heronmark swords around being borne by non-blademasters? They should be for sale on ebay.wot for vast sums for people who want to pretend they are blademasters to show off to their friends. 

 

Why is it only Rand who can be given one he has no right to? 

 

I have no idea if the show is changing this (I would prefer they didn't), and it doesn't bother me at all in the books, but it is something I don't understand. 

 

 

[ilovezam]

48 minutes ago, Ralph said:

So why aren't there heronmark swords around being borne by non-blademasters?

I'm guessing there probably are a bunch of non-blademasters decorating their swords with the mark as an attempt to pretend to be one, but they run the risk of an actual potential-blademaster challenging them for it, and they'll either lose their honour by rejecting or die in the fight.

 

It doesn't matter though, because in this turning of the Wheel, heron marks are given to exceptionally poor swordsmen, as consolation. The only thing that blade stabbed all season is Rand stabbing himself in his dream. ?

[Gothic Flame]

That moment in the book when whitecloaks accosted Rand..paraphrasing; WC; "Accidents happen."

Rand opening his cloak revealing his sheathed sword, quietly but pointedly responding; "Yeah. Even to Whitecloaks."

[SingleMort]

9 hours ago, Ralph said:

 

Heron Mark in the show is only a way of identifying Tam. We will see if it is anything else later on. 

Tbh, I always found it strange that the mark that has to be earned can just be given as a gift father to son. 

 

I don't agree re the others. 

Oath Rod and Ajahs have been explained plenty. 

Wolf brotherhood is fairly obvious and still building. 

Seanchan is a few seconds at the end of the series, you wouldn't expect explanation 

My problem with the herron being used only as a means to identify Tam is that they show Tam's face immediately after so we would already know it was Tam without the sword. If they had decided to use a different younger actor for Tam in the flashback your point would have made sense but they didn't so showing the sword is a waste of time. 

[Raal Gurniss]

2 hours ago, Ralph said:

That's exactly the question

 

Blademaster is a status you only get by killing another blademaster, iirc

 

And only a blademaster has the right to a heronmark sword. 

 

So why aren't there heronmark swords around being borne by non-blademasters? They should be for sale on ebay.wot for vast sums for people who want to pretend they are blademasters to show off to their friends. 

 

Why is it only Rand who can be given one he has no right to? 

 

I have no idea if the show is changing this (I would prefer they didn't), and it doesn't bother me at all in the books, but it is something I don't understand. 

 

 

….No doubt most of the blades are carried by those not skilled enough to have them, but I suppose they would end up being constantly challenged by better swordsman until either they improved or lost it to a superior sword fighter, in this tv show I just assume 9/10 heron blades are owned by women who master the sword at the time of picking it up.

[Ralph]

2 hours ago, ilovezam said:

I'm guessing there probably are a bunch of non-blademasters decorating their swords with the mark as an attempt to pretend to be one, but they run the risk of an actual potential-blademaster challenging them for it, and they'll either lose their honour by rejecting or die in the fight.

8 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

….No doubt most of the blades are carried by those not skilled enough to have them, but I suppose they would end up being constantly challenged by better swordsman until either they improved or lost it to a superior sword fighter, 

. 

If this were true why would everyone meeting Rand assume he is a true blade master. I know Morgase(??) and GB have that conversation in Caemlyn, but still implied it would be unusual

[Raal Gurniss]

15 minutes ago, Ralph said:

If this were true why would everyone meeting Rand assume he is a true blade master. I know Morgase(??) and GB have that conversation in Caemlyn, but still implied it would be unusual

I assume they think him a swordmaster since nobody has beaten him and taken the sword, only decent swordfighters are likely to challenge him on it after all…

 

A risky business to carry the sword and a risky business to challenge someone who might be a master.

 

 

[Gothic Flame]

Yea..the only person willing to challenge a heron mark is another heron mark.

That Rand had such a sword, or more to the point, still had his sword despite his youth, made him seem formidable. Add the fact he's also ta'veren and not many will call him out unless it's another heron mark.

[fra85uk]

In fact when he indeed meet another heron mark the guy is all "oh let's see what does it takes to earn the heron mark on this side of the ocean"