Any Channeling Of Saidin Is Tainted

[VooDooNut]

Ok, so

Spoiler

prior to Rand and Nynaeve's cleansing of Saidin

I posit that every use of the one power (shown on screen) channeled by men is corrupted in some way. It might be the madness of the thoughts he has when he channels, it could be the probability of factors in the weave itself, or where it is directed, a culmination of physical or mental stress, or something, but somehow The Dark One is involved in every use of the One Power by men while the taint is present. filthy. I posted this in the show side because I think we will get the chance to see this more visually in that medium, but I wonder how this extends to the books too. Surely there's a cost every time? That would be so sinister. *chuckles to himself softly*

 

For instance, in the scene above it appears as though Logain stops himself from killing the King, but does it advance The Dark One's agenda in some way that the King lives (momentarily) instead? Maybe Logain would have snapped his neck if not for the taint. And of course when Rand channels at TEOTW his weave appears to be diverted into breaking the seal, not killing Ishy. The Dark One's direct influence? This would certainly make any male channeling, even simply lighting a candle with the power, much more risky than it appeared to be in the books.

Edited January 12, 2022 by VooDooNut

[Jaysen Gore]

Consider it like a repetitive strain injury - it is the cumulative exposure to the corruption that cause people to slowly lose their minds - the more they channel, the more of those little hooks get into their brains. This can display as either a lose of rational thought, or in the weaves not functioning the way they want (loss of motor control, effectively)

 

But there is also a RNG component, since it is shown repeatedly in the books that at any time a male channeller's mind is subject to complete breaking from the taint without warning, and without a direct relationship to the previous level of decline.

 

I do not think the taint is sentient, or even a tool of the dark one; there is no outside will in it. The above scene is either a visual manifestation of madness, or as has been posited is in fact a couple of forsaken. But it's not the DO or the taint directly.  The taint is not the strings of the puppetmaster, in other words; it might be alcohol, removing inhibitions, or PCP, causing disassociation, or LSD, causing hallucinations, but there's no one else driving.

[VooDooNut]

6 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Consider it like a repetitive strain injury - it is the cumulative exposure to the corruption that cause people to slowly lose their minds - the more they channel, the more of those little hooks get into their brains. This can display as either a lose of rational thought, or in the weaves not functioning the way they want (loss of motor control, effectively)

 

But there is also a RNG component, since it is shown repeatedly in the books that at any time a male channeller's mind is subject to complete breaking from the taint without warning, and without a direct relationship to the previous level of decline.

 

I do not think the taint is sentient, or even a tool of the dark one; there is no outside will in it. The above scene is either a visual manifestation of madness, or as has been posited is in fact a couple of forsaken. But it's not the DO or the taint directly.  The taint is not the strings of the puppetmaster, in other words; it might be alcohol, removing inhibitions, or PCP, causing disassociation, or LSD, causing hallucinations, but there's no one else driving.

Thanks for the reply @Jaysen Gore In the books, yes, that's pretty much the case, but I'm curious to see if they strengthen the DO's influence over male channelers in the show to the point that the weaves themselves are constantly being corrupted. We don't yet have many examples to base that theory on, other than the scenes I mentioned above, but it will be interesting to see how this develops in season 2.

[Jaysen Gore]

2 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

Thanks for the reply @Jaysen Gore In the books, yes, that's pretty much the case, but I'm curious to see if they strengthen the DO's influence over male channelers in the show to the point that the weaves themselves are constantly being corrupted. We don't yet have many examples to base that theory on, other than the scenes I mentioned above, but it will be interesting to see how this develops in season 2.

I can't see it, because IMO, WOT is about agency, and having something that reduces that agency in men would cause a lot of problems politically.  It would change what male channeller's suffer as a result of the taint from madness to inescapable enslavement to evil, and further justify the way the world has treated them over the last 3000 years.

[Andra]

It wouldn't surprise me that much if that's the direction the show takes.  That the weaves with Saidin themselves are currupted, rather than just the (eventual) sanity of the channelers.

 

It would be a(nother) clear change from the books, where the same weave produces the same effect, every time.  Provided the channeler has the strength and control to weave it.

 

It's actually the thing that made the aftermath of Elayne's gateway from Ebou Dar so dramatic.  Because for both male and female channelers, the Power didn't do what they expected it to.

[Jsbrads2]

There can always be a more sinister plan later, but that requires proof, letting the king live was good. 

[Spiritweaver1]

On 1/12/2022 at 12:41 PM, Jaysen Gore said:

Consider it like a repetitive strain injury - it is the cumulative exposure to the corruption that cause people to slowly lose their minds - the more they channel, the more of those little hooks get into their brains. This can display as either a lose of rational thought, or in the weaves not functioning the way they want (loss of motor control, effectively)

 

But there is also a RNG component, since it is shown repeatedly in the books that at any time a male channeller's mind is subject to complete breaking from the taint without warning, and without a direct relationship to the previous level of decline.

 

I do not think the taint is sentient, or even a tool of the dark one; there is no outside will in it. The above scene is either a visual manifestation of madness, or as has been posited is in fact a couple of forsaken. But it's not the DO or the taint directly.  The taint is not the strings of the puppetmaster, in other words; it might be alcohol, removing inhibitions, or PCP, causing disassociation, or LSD, causing hallucinations, but there's no one else driving.

Great post.  However, it is useless to speculate from a show perspective because I have yet seen no real evidence that they are going to do any substantive differentiation between saidin and saidar.  They have blown past a couple of opportunities.   Randland lore is pretty clear.  The taint is an oily, toxic film which can't be avoided when channeling saidin.  Another way to look at it is an cumulative energetic poison., Say X-rays.  Every time you are exposed it does damage.  Depending on the individuals physical and psychological make up they have more or less resistance.  Hooks in the brain indeed!! ? At some point it will destroy your brain.   

[Terry05]

4 hours ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

Great post.  However, it is useless to speculate from a show perspective because I have yet seen no real evidence that they are going to do any substantive differentiation between saidin and saidar.  They have blown past a couple of opportunities.   Randland lore is pretty clear.  The taint is an oily, toxic film which can't be avoided when channeling saidin.  Another way to look at it is an cumulative energetic poison., Say X-rays.  Every time you are exposed it does damage.  Depending on the individuals physical and psychological make up they have more or less resistance.  Hooks in the brain indeed!! ? At some point it will destroy your brain.   

One of the many things I strongly disliked about Ep 8 (not going anywhere near Eggy's healing of near death ?) was they set it up perfectly in the journey through the Blight: Rand "teach me to channel" - Moiraine - "I can't - women touch one side of the power, men touch the other. It's apples and oranges". Instead they went with Moiraine being coy. This was such an easy set up to establish a key piece of lore and I'm sad they missed it.

[Mailman]

On 1/12/2022 at 6:38 PM, VooDooNut said:

Ok, so

  Hide contents

prior to Rand and Nynaeve's cleansing of Saidin

I posit that every use of the one power (shown on screen) channeled by men is corrupted in some way. It might be the madness of the thoughts he has when he channels, it could be the probability of factors in the weave itself, or where it is directed, a culmination of physical or mental stress, or something, but somehow The Dark One is involved in every use of the One Power by men while the taint is present. filthy. I posted this in the show side because I think we will get the chance to see this more visually in that medium, but I wonder how this extends to the books too. Surely there's a cost every time? That would be so sinister. *chuckles to himself softly*

 

For instance, in the scene above it appears as though Logain stops himself from killing the King, but does it advance The Dark One's agenda in some way that the King lives (momentarily) instead? Maybe Logain would have snapped his neck if not for the taint. And of course when Rand channels at TEOTW his weave appears to be diverted into breaking the seal, not killing Ishy. The Dark One's direct influence? This would certainly make any male channeling, even simply lighting a candle with the power, much more risky than it appeared to be in the books.

That would require either the taint itself to have some form of consciousness or for it forge a direct link to the Dark One via the taint. The first seems unlikely and the second seems to give the Dark One too much power. If he was able to control the madness and influence male channelers with it it would be fullish to have them just go kamikaze rather than make use of them.

[VooDooNut]

2 hours ago, Terry05 said:

One of the many things I strongly disliked about Ep 8 (not going anywhere near Eggy's healing of near death ?) was they set it up perfectly in the journey through the Blight: Rand "teach me to channel" - Moiraine - "I can't - women touch one side of the power, men touch the other. It's apples and oranges". Instead they went with Moiraine being coy. This was such an easy set up to establish a key piece of lore and I'm sad they missed it.

I keep thinking about this moment with Rand and Moiraine. If it turns out she could have taught him the "birds-fish" stuff and chose not to, that will be disappointing, but I wonder if it has to do with Rand and Ishy's moment at TEOTW. Ishy did tell Rand the opposite way to channel Saidin, but because Moiraine was not clear in the preceding scene, Rand doesn't think to question Ishy's advice. Again, I think this might hint towards Ishy trying to kill Rand by having him embrace Saidin, but if this doesn't pay off in a future season I'll be a little confused.

 

But I still expect we will have more exposition dumps for Saidin v Saidar in future seasons.

[Terry05]

6 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

Ishy did tell Rand the opposite way to channel Saidin, but because Moiraine was not clear in the preceding scene, Rand doesn't think to question Ishy's advice. Again, I think this might hint towards Ishy trying to kill Rand by having him embrace Saidin, but if this doesn't pay off in a future season I'll be a little confused.

 

But I still expect we will have more exposition dumps for Saidin v Saidar in future seasons.

Yeah I really hope we get some exposition on the duality of the OP as well.

 

You raise an interesting point with Ishy telling him to embrace. I assumed that Ishy's end goal was to be freed from his prison. If Rand needed to channel in order to break the seal, why would Ishy try and kill him?

Maybe by misdirecting him Ishy thought there would be some kind of destructive OP explosion that would break the seal? It's been a while since I read the books but Ishy wasn't trying to kill Rand at this point in the books right?

 

I'm not being difficult I promise ? just something that I think will be WAFO as you suggest.

[VooDooNut]

5 minutes ago, Terry05 said:

Yeah I really hope we get some exposition on the duality of the OP as well.

 

You raise an interesting point with Ishy telling him to embrace. I assumed that Ishy's end goal was to be freed from his prison. If Rand needed to channel in order to break the seal, why would Ishy try and kill him?

Maybe by misdirecting him Ishy thought there would be some kind of destructive OP explosion that would break the seal? It's been a while since I read the books but Ishy wasn't trying to kill Rand at this point in the books right?

 

I'm not being difficult I promise ? just something that I think will be WAFO as you suggest.

No, you make a good point. I keep waffling between Ishy trying to kill him and Ishy trying to confuse him, but you're right that Ishy probably wouldn't be trying to kill Rand at this point, just confuse/coerce him. Maybe the TDO was able to corrupt Rand's weave because he was quasi-embracing Saidin, like you said? At this point, who knows!

 

I just have a feeling Ishy was very thoughtful with his words.

Edited January 18, 2022 by VooDooNut

[Terry05]

2 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

I just have a feeling Ishy was very thoughtful with his words.

How good was that little smirk Faran gave us just as he "died"

[DaddyFinn]

3 minutes ago, Terry05 said:

I assumed that Ishy's end goal was to be freed from his prison. If Rand needed to channel in order to break the seal, why would Ishy try and kill him?

Didn't Ishy just want the DO to win and everything to end? Killing the DR would have made DO's win almost inevitable? Though that would contradict the "let the Lord of Chaos rule".

[DaddyFinn]

Just now, Terry05 said:

How good was that little smirk Faran gave us just as he "died"

So many of non-book viewers noticed that and were like "oooh he wanted Rand to 'kill' him". Great little detail.

[Terry05]

Just now, DaddyFinn said:

Didn't Ishy just want the DO to win and everything to end? Killing the DR would have made DO's win almost inevitable? Though that would contradict the "let the Lord of Chaos rule".

I seem to have a memory of Ishy not wanting the Forsaken to kill Rand - I'm starting my reread of the series as soon as I finish the last Book of Babel. But yeah you'd think the easiest way for the DO to win would be to remove his greatest threat before he becomes a threat

[DaddyFinn]

2 minutes ago, Terry05 said:

I seem to have a memory of Ishy not wanting the Forsaken to kill Rand - I'm starting my reread of the series as soon as I finish the last Book of Babel. But yeah you'd think the easiest way for the DO to win would be to remove his greatest threat before he becomes a threat

I suppose there's a good explanation for it. I just don't remember what it is.

[VooDooNut]

6 minutes ago, Terry05 said:

I seem to have a memory of Ishy not wanting the Forsaken to kill Rand - I'm starting my reread of the series as soon as I finish the last Book of Babel. But yeah you'd think the easiest way for the DO to win would be to remove his greatest threat before he becomes a threat

I got the impression TDO thought having Rand under his control was a better strategy than killing him too, but if push came to shove TDO would rather Rand be dead than oppose him.

 

3 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

I suppose there's a good explanation for it. I just don't remember what it is.

 

So, yes. Very unclear what the true motivations are in this moment. This scene is just all sorts of confusing and thus has received a lot of criticism, but I have a gut feeling that this scene was intentionally sneaky and will have some payoff.

Edited January 18, 2022 by VooDooNut

[Andra]

18 hours ago, Terry05 said:

I seem to have a memory of Ishy not wanting the Forsaken to kill Rand - I'm starting my reread of the series as soon as I finish the last Book of Babel. But yeah you'd think the easiest way for the DO to win would be to remove his greatest threat before he becomes a threat

 

18 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

I suppose there's a good explanation for it. I just don't remember what it is.

 

For much of the series, the DO wanted to turn Rand if he could.  But leave him alive until then in order to increase the chaos in the world.  Prior to being resurrected, Ishamael wanted that too, as well as to survive himself.

It's only after becoming Moridin that he started saying he wanted to die permanently.

 

Which means that at this early stage of the game, he wouldn't have really wanted either himself or Rand to actually die.

 

But fooling Rand into thinking he'd killed him - or more accurately into thinking he'd killed the DO?  Absolutely.  That fits the endings of all three of the first books perfectly.

 

Until book 4, everyone thought Ba'alzamon was the DO.  They look to be going that way with the show, just not using the name.  Moiraine believed the man at the Eye was actually the DO.  We'll apparently see next season if she still thinks that.

Edited January 19, 2022 by Andra