S1E8: The Eye of the World v2

[fra85uk]

Recontextualization should not be cheating the audience like they did for the DR reveal 

[Gothic Flame]

3 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

The only credit I'm giving the writers is assuming they are not done telling the story they have planned out. Again, I think that's more a matter of patience than credit...

...and faith.

[divica]

I just anted to leave this link so people here read the comments

 

Why The Wheel of Time succeeds as an adaptation (and The Witcher fails) - Page 2 (winteriscoming.net)

 

Basically almost everybody disgrees ith the article. From readers to non-readers...

[VooDooNut]

3 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

...and faith.

 

Nope. Patience. If the show comes to a close X seasons from now and none of the pieces fit together I will donate a pitchfork to the cause.

Edited January 3, 2022 by VooDooNut
added quote for clarity

[Lethira the second]

6 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

...and faith.

 

The trouble is, companies such as Amazon are fickle.  If it's not performing how they want it to, they'll simply pull the plug and then the best laid plans will crumble to dust.

[divica]

6 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

...and faith.

It is like the last seasons of got debate. Everybody knew that what we were seeing was bad but people refused to aknowledge that and kept saying "in the end it will make sense".

 

I am sorry, but if something is bad now it will almost certainly keep being bad in the future.

 

The problems with wot won't be corrected unless most of the writing team changes because they are a result of the agenda, interpretation and messange they want to send.

[Jaysen Gore]

7 minutes ago, Ralph said:

Something I still don't understand... 

 

Surely the extra emphasis on arrogance of men (if it is meant genuinely) can only increase the payback when we learn through the series that the only possible completeness is when men and women work together

 

Sorry I now I have said it before, but I just don't see how anyone can see it as misandrist by the showrunners

the issue is that by the calendar, that won't happen for about 6 years.  In the meantime, we're going to get a lot of men and women not understanding each other, and a lot of arrogant / evil women making very bad mistakes. Even more so than in the books, since they've made Moiraine ignorant of the true prophecies. You are also assuming that the showrunners can deliver that payoff, and that the show will be able to survive until that point. Because if they are unrelenting with the changes to the guys (like if Mat doesn't rescue the girls at least once), I can see them losing a lot of the male audience.

 

It's not that some of us believe the showrunners are intentionally misandrist, it's that all of their individual little decisions boost the women, and bring down the men.  It could be as simple as Nynaeve with a sword to Lan's neck instead of just finding them, or LTT's lack of desperation with Latra, or as big as taking 60-70% of Rand's PoV time and the Gap away. But it's also them making the girls more like their end selves, and giving the boys a further distance to travel for their character arcs.  So either they are doing it intentionally - which would be misandrist - or they are just following their natural instincts, and getting what feels like the same result.  It's the difference between murder and manslaughter, no pun intended.

 

I've mentioned it before, but on the commentary to Temple of Doom, they talk about how they kept making small tweaks to make a particular scene darker, and lost track of the overall tone. As a result, all those individual tweaks ended up making the movie much darker than they intended. And that was Lucas and Spielberg making that mistake, not just a bunch of TV folks.

 

And while I am not necessarily trying to defend it, you should understand that there is a very real distrust of Hollywood's current efforts to rebalance representation, which does often present as a denigration of men. It's a harsh truth of mathematics that if you narrow the Standard Deviation between the top and the bottom, those at the top are going to lose out. And the people on top don't like that. 

[Ralph]

22 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

the issue is that by the calendar, that won't happen for about 6 years.  In the meantime, we're going to get a lot of men and women not understanding each other, and a lot of arrogant / evil women making very bad mistakes. Even more so than in the books, since they've made Moiraine ignorant of the true prophecies. You are also assuming that the showrunners can deliver that payoff, and that the show will be able to survive until that point. Because if they are unrelenting with the changes to the guys (like if Mat doesn't rescue the girls at least once), I can see them losing a lot of the male audience.

 

It's not that some of us believe the showrunners are intentionally misandrist, it's that all of their individual little decisions boost the women, and bring down the men.  It could be as simple as Nynaeve with a sword to Lan's neck instead of just finding them, or LTT's lack of desperation with Latra, or as big as taking 60-70% of Rand's PoV time and the Gap away. But it's also them making the girls more like their end selves, and giving the boys a further distance to travel for their character arcs.  So either they are doing it intentionally - which would be misandrist - or they are just following their natural instincts, and getting what feels like the same result.  It's the difference between murder and manslaughter, no pun intended.

 

I've mentioned it before, but on the commentary to Temple of Doom, they talk about how they kept making small tweaks to make a particular scene darker, and lost track of the overall tone. As a result, all those individual tweaks ended up making the movie much darker than they intended. And that was Lucas and Spielberg making that mistake, not just a bunch of TV folks.

 

And while I am not necessarily trying to defend it, you should understand that there is a very real distrust of Hollywood's current efforts to rebalance representation, which does often present as a denigration of men. It's a harsh truth of mathematics that if you narrow the Standard Deviation between the top and the bottom, those at the top are going to lose out. And the people on top don't like that. 

But if bringing down men is deliberately in order that the women's comeuppance is all the greater, that is neither consciously nor unconsciously misandrist, but actually an attack on the mistaken belief that feminism requires bringing down men. 

 

One of the main themes of the series is that men and women both look down on the other sex and do not trust them. Everyone discovers that only combined efforts can be truly successful. 

 

If the show makes that only about women's attitude to men, then surely that is anti "bringdownmenism" rather than pro? 

Edited January 3, 2022 by Ralph

[divica]

9 minutes ago, Ralph said:

But if bringing down men is deliberately in order that the women's comeuppance is all the greater, that is neither consciously nor unconsciously misandrist, but actually an attack on the mistaken belief that feminism requires bringing down men. 

 

One of the main themes of the series is that men and women both look down on the other sec and do not trust them. Everyone discovers that only combined efforts can be truly successful. 

 

If the show makes that only about women's attitude to men, then surely that is anti "bringdownmenism" rather than pro? 

For that to make sense the women would need to be the ones bringing down men. 

However it is the show itself that does that... 

[divica]

44 minutes ago, Lethira the second said:

 

The trouble is, companies such as Amazon are fickle.  If it's not performing how they want it to, they'll simply pull the plug and then the best laid plans will crumble to dust.

I think the future of the show will depend on the numbers of the second season. 

Because it is obvious the name of the show attracted a lot of people but looking at what people say about the show it is divise at best. I would like to compare the numbers of the premiere with the last ep...

 

But what I am trying to say is that it is doubtfully that the show will explode in popularity and I would like to know how many people will return to watch the second season... 

[KakitaOCU]

2 hours ago, Lethira the second said:

I'd peg that with the scene with Legolas surfing down the steps firing arrows. 

 

Yes, you are correct the fight (as a fight scene) was totally unrealistic.  It's almost as fanciful as one of the great captains getting pinned to the wall with a spear sailing through an arrow slit or a single Aes Sedai with no angreal managing to rip a building to pieces without burning out.  

 

I don't watch a great deal of TV but I've yet to see a fight scene in a fantasy show that is realistic.  With the possible exception of Spartacus -given the nature of the material there are a few in seasons 0 and 1 the feel authentic.

 

You'll note I didn't say Witcher was bad.  I said the fight scene was bad and that it was an interesting thing to bring in as a comparison while complaining that Lan is not show as competent.  IE, the example of how Lan should be should involve deliberately bad pacing and nonsense so he looks cool.

Also, your side notes are not comparible.

Agelmar's death is perfectly realistic.  Not something I wanted to happen or am super thrilled with, but also not something that made me go "that's not something that would happen."  Which is the issue here.  Same with Moraine, she doesn't casually crush a whole building, she starts ripping stones out and throwing them.  Seems perfectly in line with what we see her, Alanna and Verin do (She's stronger than Alanna and Verin for the record).

[Jaysen Gore]

12 minutes ago, Ralph said:

But if bringing down men is deliberately in order that the women's comeuppance is all the greater, that is neither consciously nor unconsciously misandrist, but actually an attack on the mistaken belief that feminism requires bringing down men. 

 

One of the main themes of the series is that men and women both look down on the other sex and do not trust them. Everyone discovers that only combined efforts can be truly successful. 

 

If the show makes that only about women's attitude to men, then surely that is anti "bringdownmenism" rather than pro? 

Divica has said it well, but i'll just add that there's been nothing shown in the series so far that shows men are just as competent as the women, except for Ishamael vs. Moiraine.  In every other case, they've shown the women to be stronger and more competent than the men

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

16 minutes ago, Ralph said:

One of the main themes of the series is that men and women both look down on the other sex and do not trust them. Everyone discovers that only combined efforts can be truly successful.

You are correct, which is why many of us knew from the beginning that Rafe (a self-described, proud male feminist who's shown that he has no qualms about changing WoT to align it with his own beliefs) was going to grossly mishandle this adaptation. 

 

Rafe IS one of these feminists you mention. He's not going to write a show that ends up being a critique of himself or his worldview. 

[Gothic Flame]

2 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Rafe IS one of these feminists you mention. He's not going to write a show that ends up being a critique of himself or his worldview.

That would explain show-Lan.

[KakitaOCU]

58 minutes ago, divica said:

I just anted to leave this link so people here read the comments

 

Why The Wheel of Time succeeds as an adaptation (and The Witcher fails) - Page 2 (winteriscoming.net)

 

Basically almost everybody disgrees ith the article. From readers to non-readers...

They're not wrong, though I don't agree with all points.

And yeah, the small handful of comments (211 is small when the viewership is in the millions) disagree.

You know who doesn't?  Critics.  I see everyone tossing around RT and WoT only have 82% versus things like GoT being higher.  But they conveniently choose to not notice that Witcher is at 81% and Season 1 of Witcher is at 68%.

What I really don't understand is the obsession that because you didn't like it somehow you need to find validation of everyone else hating it too.  It's wierd.

[Raal Gurniss]

58 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

 

Nope. Patience. If the show comes to a close X seasons from now and none of the pieces fit together I will donate a pitchfork to the cause.

What would be the point then though?  It would be over and have zero point in any criticism after the fact..

 

Criticism is currently given because many people didn’t like what has been currently produced and would like it changed.

 

 

[KakitaOCU]

5 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Divica has said it well, but i'll just add that there's been nothing shown in the series so far that shows men are just as competent as the women, except for Ishamael vs. Moiraine.  In every other case, they've shown the women to be stronger and more competent than the men

You mean the way book 1 went?  No one could stand up to Moraine and the three competent male warriors (Tam, Lan and Thom) are either injured and set aside, act completely subservient to Moraine, or get "Killed" midway through the book.

Elyas is in hiding and afraid of being found by his Aes Sedai.  Perrin is along for the ride the entire time. 

Rand and Mat struggle and hide and accomplish nothing.

Bryne is competent, but beneath Morgase and Elaida.  Gawyn and Galad are set aside without fanfare.

Agelmar is committing suicide in the books same as he is in the show.

Literally the only competent "male" moment is Rand at the end, and it's a Deus Ex Machina.

Seriously, it was book 4 when the tables start turning and everyone is still bickering along Gender Lines in the final volume.

[divica]

2 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

They're not wrong, though I don't agree with all points.

And yeah, the small handful of comments (211 is small when the viewership is in the millions) disagree.

You know who doesn't?  Critics.  I see everyone tossing around RT and WoT only have 82% versus things like GoT being higher.  But they conveniently choose to not notice that Witcher is at 81% and Season 1 of Witcher is at 68%.

What I really don't understand is the obsession that because you didn't like it somehow you need to find validation of everyone else hating it too.  It's wierd.

The thing about critics is that most of the time they don't represent what the audience thinks. You just have to look at season 1 of the Witcher to notice that. And then look at season 2 to see how critics tried to compensate their opinions on season 1 and ended up pretty far from the audience's opinion. 

 

In the end what matters is people's opinion and not critics. And wherever you look it is low. And that is worrying for wot... 

[VooDooNut]

13 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

What would be the point then though?  It would be over and have zero point in any criticism after the fact..

 

Criticism is currently given because many people didn’t like what has been currently produced and would like it changed.

 

 

Criticism is pointless if you can't use it as a means to stick a hand in the creative process and arbitrarily decide what is good or bad (for everyone)?

 

IMO it's fantastical to think anything said on forums like this will have a noticeable impact on the creation of the show. Which is why I'd rather spend my time analyzing and investigating the show and the choices that have been made (up until now), and how those choices might lead to future consequences, than try and ineffectually tear the show down, or hope to change it through posting on a community forum.

Edited January 3, 2022 by VooDooNut
typo

[Ralph]

26 minutes ago, divica said:

For that to make sense the women would need to be the ones bringing down men. 

However it is the show itself that does that... 

I am addressing specifically M's "arrogance" line, and the possible change to LTT's motivation, although I am not convinced

 

I haven't seen any evidence of any other change along this lines, and we have already debated that ad nauseam

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

5 minutes ago, divica said:

In the end what matters is people's opinion and not critics. And wherever you look it is low. And that is worrying for wot... 

Here is some supplementary evidence for you, my friend! 

 

https://www.metacritic.com/tv/the-wheel-of-time/user-reviews

 

Basically anywhere you go, the reaction to the show has been pretty meh. Amazon is pushing the heck out of it, but we'll see how long they keep that up while reactions like these begin to mount and the discussion begins to turn. 

[Jaysen Gore]

1 minute ago, KakitaOCU said:

You mean the way book 1 went?  No one could stand up to Moraine and the three competent male warriors (Tam, Lan and Thom) are either injured and set aside, act completely subservient to Moraine, or get "Killed" midway through the book.

Elyas is in hiding and afraid of being found by his Aes Sedai.  Perrin is along for the ride the entire time. 

Rand and Mat struggle and hide and accomplish nothing.

Bryne is competent, but beneath Morgase and Elaida.  Gawyn and Galad are set aside without fanfare.

Agelmar is committing suicide in the books same as he is in the show.

Literally the only competent "male" moment is Rand at the end, and it's a Deus Ex Machina.

Seriously, it was book 4 when the tables start turning and everyone is still bickering along Gender Lines in the final volume.

Did Perrin kill his wife in the book?

Did Matt steal from Edmond's Fielders in the book?

Did Abell sleep around on his wife and not protect his family in the book?

Did Nynaeve get a knife to Lan's throat in the book?

Did Tam kill multiple trollocs in the book?

Did 5 women kill 500 trollocs in the book?

Did LTT act from desperation in the book?

Did Lan decide to take them to SL in the book?

Did women fight at Fal Dara, or did they evacuate in the book?

How many people did Nynaeve heal with channeling in the book? More or less than in the cave?

 

Did every one one of the changes I listed above make women look stronger and men weaker than in the books?

[Ralph]

6 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Did Perrin kill his wife in the book?

Did Matt steal from Edmond's Fielders in the book?

Did Abell sleep around on his wife and not protect his family in the book?

Did Nynaeve get a knife to Lan's throat in the book?

Did Tam kill multiple trollocs in the book?

Did 5 women kill 500 trollocs in the book?

Did LTT act from desperation in the book?

Did Lan decide to take them to SL in the book?

Did women fight at Fal Dara, or did they evacuate in the book?

How many people did Nynaeve heal with channeling in the book? More or less than in the cave?

 

Did every one one of the changes I listed above make women look stronger and men weaker than in the books?

 

We have been through this many times. There is no point going over it again. 

 

With the one exception that yes Lan did decide to take them to SL, just M overruled him until there was no choice

[Raal Gurniss]

10 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

Criticism is pointless if you can't use it as a means to stick a hand in the creative process and arbitrarily decide what is good or bad (for everyone)?

 

IMO it's fantastical to think anything said on forums like this will have a noticeable impact on the creation of the show. Which is why I'd rather spend my time analyzing and investigating the show and the choices that have been made (up until now), and how those choices might lead to future consequences, than try and ineffectually tear the show down, or hope to change it through posting on a community forum.

It’s a work of fiction, analyse and investigate all you want but they could completely do something different next season…WoT is on shaky ground, many better shows have been cancelled for much less.

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

5 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Did Perrin kill his wife in the book?

Did Matt steal from Edmond's Fielders in the book?

Did Abell sleep around on his wife and not protect his family in the book?

Did Nynaeve get a knife to Lan's throat in the book?

Did Tam kill multiple trollocs in the book?

Did 5 women kill 500 trollocs in the book?

Did LTT act from desperation in the book?

Did Lan decide to take them to SL in the book?

Did women fight at Fal Dara, or did they evacuate in the book?

How many people did Nynaeve heal with channeling in the book? More or less than in the cave?

Did Lan have to be told by village girl Nynaeve how to track his own Aes Sedai? 

Did Egwene get to stab Valda while a terrified Rand runs away from a short woman? 

Was Lews Therin the Tamyrlin Seat? 

Was Agelmar respectful of Aes Sedai and also one of the Five Great Generals? 

Was Amalisa not a minor character of far less importance than her husband? 

Didn't Logain need 6 women to shield him in the books but in the show it's only 3? 

Does Loial open the Ways or is it Moiraine? 

Does Nynaeve have a block in the books? 

Are Warders treated as tools for sex in the books? (Okay, gotta expand on this because no one has mentioned it. But, like, in episode 4 there's those two gay warders who are lounging by the fire and then their Aes Sedai comes over and is all like, "Time for sex" and they just get up and go to service her. Can you freaking imagine if this scene was gender swapped??? Of course, "problematic" material often only goes one way.) 

 

Anyway, the list goes on and on and on. And the tragic irony is that these attempts to prop up the women actually totally backfire. The writers' desperate attempts to make them cool are so transparent as to be laughable and actually make the female characters seem somehow more pathetic than their book counterparts.