WOT Season 1 and Beyond

[notpropaganda73]

On 1/3/2022 at 2:24 AM, Jaysen Gore said:

What I think they’re doing.

 

AKA “Many of the truths we cling to are only true from a certain point of view” – some lying M.F.’er

 

TLDR; I think the way Rafe and Co. are going to tell the Wheel of Time is through everyone’s PoV, except Rand’s, with the focus on the various women in his life. The others will get solid PoV’s, but Rand’s solo stuff will be very limited. All the talk about untrustworthy narrators is because we won’t know what’s going on in Rand’s head, and most everyone will be wrong.

 

To support that, most of Rand’s early super-epic saviour stuff will be eliminated, and the scary / dangerous channeller dude will be emphasized. And it’s not that he does nothing – he will still do the biggest things at the end – but almost all his epic moments – except 3 (Balefiring Graendal’s retreat, the  cleansing, and the sealing) – will either be cut, or done by others. As they mostly are in the books after book 4.

 

Consider:

All 5 of the dropped (ie non-statue) Forsaken were killed during combat / battle with Rand involved (Rand not always responsible). Of those remaining, only Sammael and Ishamael were killed around Rand. If we lose Moridin, he won't kill Ishamael until the very end. If we lose Osan’gar, I expect Sammael is the one Graendal binds for balefiring. But otherwise, Rand plays no part in dealing with the Forsaken.

 

By dropping the Eye, we lost Tarwin’s Gap, and the deaths of Aginor and Balthamel. By dropping sword training, we won’t get Turak or Be’lal or a man in the sky or sheathing the sword. Without Rahvin, there’s no raid on Camelyn, and undoing the deaths there. If Tear is cut for time, there is likely no chain lightning through the Stone.

 

And after Rhuidean, Rand is a leader, doing philosophical things, disrupting cultures, and taking over the world. But he is not doing it himself in an epic fashion. He is Caesar, not Alexander. And according to the modern interpretation of history, Caesar was a villain.

 

Also, by not giving us Rand’s PoV:

1. they get to emphasize the similarity to LTT, leading to a possible repeat of the cycle, and the fear and terror of everyone who comes in contact with him except the main 6 and his 3 girls.

2. they can play with the Lanfear seduction angle for a long time.

3. they can paint him as a tyrant – hanging nobles and Aiel alike, without much inner conflict, or only through Min’s PoV.

4. Rand’s manhandling of Egwene / Elayne, his conversations with LTT, finding the access keys, his treatment of the Aes Sedai after DW, and his targeting of Graendal all take on a new terrifying aspect.

5. the fears of Elaida, Sorilea, Cadsuane, and others can all be played up.

 

Without changing most of the post DR plot beats, once the decision is made to eliminate the Forsaken they did, it’s going to be very easy to set this whole thing up as “Is Rand Al’Thor going to save the world, or destroy it?” And without seeing what’s in his head, it will be easy to paint the actual series plot milestones in a very different light. Without actually changing them.

 

And without changing those major plot beats, they have the ability to tell a pretty unique story – the story of a chosen one who actually doesn’t get to do anything that a chosen one does.  So it will be The Wheel of Time. Only one that is told from a different point of view.

 

If you are emotionally attached to Rand, you're likely to despise this series; if your faves are other than Rand, you should be fine.  Because they will all get their moments. But until Veins of Gold, I think the whole point of the series is to convince the audience that Rand is likely to destroy the world. 

 

This is a great theory, thanks for sharing. I'm uncomfortable reading it but I think that is more down to doubt around their ability to actually execute something like this, rather than the idea itself. The doubt comes from what we saw in S1, as @Skipp mentions the season was littered with ideas not quite committed to and so nothing was executed quite as well as it could have been. 

 

If they go down this route, they really need to commit whole heartedly to it. 

 

As an aside, I think it would be a nice parallel if they do this, that we see some sort of scene with the Emond's Fielders (minus Rand) discussing him, and Mat defends him much like Rand defended Mat in episode 7. 

[JyP]

On 1/3/2022 at 3:24 AM, Jaysen Gore said:

TLDR; I think the way Rafe and Co. are going to tell the Wheel of Time is through everyone’s PoV, except Rand’s, with the focus on the various women in his life. The others will get solid PoV’s, but Rand’s solo stuff will be very limited. All the talk about untrustworthy narrators is because we won’t know what’s going on in Rand’s head, and most everyone will be wrong.

 

If we go by the first season : we won't have Perrin nor Mat's PoV also. Perrin's shared thoughts with wolves are pretty much unknown in the TV series. As first season was all about Moiraine's PoV, it could continue this way a long time.

 

So you would have the 3 male taverens disrupting everyone's "reasonable" plans while traveling all over Randland - while the 2 female taverens, back in the White Tower, would be the catalyst to the Tower split.

 

You can follow this path at least until end of season 2 (book 2 & 3), and even later...

 

edit: Moiraine has done a lot of things in books which were never described : being from Laman's family, one of the strongest in the White Tower, having discovered the Reds' unlawful stilling of mens, going through the portal terangreal in Tear, the same in Rhuidean, having found the Green Man 2 times, negotiating with the Aelfinn...

Edited January 4, 2022 by JyP
Moiraine's adventures

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

Were I in charge of the show ( a pipe-dream, I know), I would have the following priorities for Season 2. 

 

1. Sell Rand as a character. He is so under-utilized in Season 1 and there are still many show fans who think that he's a red-herring for the Dragon. He's terribly under developed and no one really cares about him. 

2. Bring back Ba'alzamon (The Man, or whatever stupid thing they call him) in Rand's dreams but have them talk more. Really build up this relationship in preparation for the confrontation at Falme. 

3. Find someone, anyone who can teach Rand how to use a sword so that he can kill the blademaster at Falme. They sacrificed the option to have Lan do this for the sake of a pointless cliffhanger, but they can at least have someone teach him. Unless Rafe doesn't think the moment of Rand earning his heron is cool and decides to skip it which is entirely possible. 

4. Block Nynaeve and focus on depicting their story very accurately to the book. Of the characters, their situation most resembles the place they occupy at this point in the books and their story can proceed accordingly. In TGH, they have 14 viewpoints between the two of them, that's it. You can easily show that material in an 8 episode season without condensing too much.

5. Introduce Hurin and send Perrin off on the Hunt. You can't undo the damage they've already done to the myth of the Horn, but they can at least have this story progress like in the books. Rand can accidentally activate a portal stone in the blight, wander through the other world, find Lanfear, and pop out in Caerhein where he serendipitously meets up with Perrin and co. and the story resumes. 

6. IN THE NAME OF ALL THAT IS GOOD AND HOLY PLEASE don't cut Rand's visions of alternate lives. They kind of stole this moment's thunder a bit with the vision that Ishy shows Rand in episode 8, but I'd still make this a huge moment, probably the end of Episode 7.  

7. Kill Moiraine in episode 1. Honestly, given the degree to which Rosamund Pike's presence is derailing the story, I would rather just get rid of her unceremoniously than have her steering the plot for another 2 seasons for the sake of her Lanfear moment. 

[Ralph]

7 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Were I in charge of the show ( a pipe-dream, I know), I would have the following priorities for Season 2. 

 

1. Sell Rand as a character. He is so under-utilized in Season 1 and there are still many show fans who think that he's a red-herring for the Dragon. He's terribly under developed and no one really cares about him. 

2. Bring back Ba'alzamon (The Man, or whatever stupid thing they call him) in Rand's dreams but have them talk more. Really build up this relationship in preparation for the confrontation at Falme. 

3. Find someone, anyone who can teach Rand how to use a sword so that he can kill the blademaster at Falme. They sacrificed the option to have Lan do this for the sake of a pointless cliffhanger, but they can at least have someone teach him. Unless Rafe doesn't think the moment of Rand earning his heron is cool and decides to skip it which is entirely possible. 

4. Block Nynaeve and focus on depicting their story very accurately to the book. Of the characters, their situation most resembles the place they occupy at this point in the books and their story can proceed accordingly. In TGH, they have 14 viewpoints between the two of them, that's it. You can easily show that material in an 8 episode season without condensing too much.

5. Introduce Hurin and send Perrin off on the Hunt. You can't undo the damage they've already done to the myth of the Horn, but they can at least have this story progress like in the books. Rand can accidentally activate a portal stone in the blight, wander through the other world, find Lanfear, and pop out in Caerhein where he serendipitously meets up with Perrin and co. and the story resumes. 

6. IN THE NAME OF ALL THAT IS GOOD AND HOLY PLEASE don't cut Rand's visions of alternate lives. They kind of stole this moment's thunder a bit with the vision that Ishy shows Rand in episode 8, but I'd still make this a huge moment, probably the end of Episode 7.  

7. Kill Moiraine in episode 1. Honestly, given the degree to which Rosamund Pike's presence is derailing the story, I would rather just get rid of her unceremoniously than have her steering the plot for another 2 seasons for the sake of her Lanfear moment. 

I expect 124.

5 maybe not Hurin but someone else, and I'm not convinced they will have portal worlds at all. 

6 do you mean the portal stone visions? 

3 unlikely, 7 no chance

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

23 minutes ago, Ralph said:

5 maybe not Hurin but someone else, and I'm not convinced they will have portal worlds at all. 

6 do you mean the portal stone visions? 

3 unlikely, 7 no chance

Yeah 7 was a bit of a meme haha Definitely not happening, though the degree to which the show has to bend over backwards to account for Pike's star power is a little annoying. 

 

I do mean the portal stone visions, but then again, you definitely have a point that they might not even include the portal stuff at all. Personally, I'd be pretty bummed if there wasn't an "I win again, Lews Therin" thing at all in season 2. IMO, they've got to figure out how to facilitate that somehow. 

[EmreY]

@JeffTheWoodlandElf I agree with all except your unconscionable desire to get rid of the Fair Rosamund.

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

11 minutes ago, EmreY said:

I agree with all except your unconscionable desire to get rid of the Fair Rosamund.

I loved this casting choice when it was first announced. But now that I've seen the lengths that the show has to go in order to account for her star power, I just don't think she's worth the trouble. I would have rather they found a talented but relatively obscure actress to play Moiraine instead, scaled down season 1's budget and production to something more modest, and built stars out of the characters the same way that GoT did (after Season 1). 

[Spiritweaver1]

Very interesting thread.  Here are some questions for you seer types.  I would be very interested in your reasoning for each of what could  be yes/no answers.

 

Will there be both Falme and Tear or do they collapse them into one battle?

 

Will Liandrin winkle the girls out of the tower and try and feed them to the Seanchan?

 

Are Perrin and Loial going back to the Two Rivers and start building his army?

 

Speaking of Perrin is there Young Bull or are the wolves something he fights against the whole series.

 

Does Matt blow the Horn or will it be Egw or Nyn or Min?

 

Does the  White Tower split?

 

Are they going to combine Tanchico and Ebou Dar?

 

Anyway that's enough for now.

 

[Ralph]

1 minute ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

Very interesting thread.  Here are some questions for you seer types.  I would be very interested in your reasoning for each of what could  be yes/no answers.

 

Will there be both Falme and Tear or do they collapse them into one battle?

Don't know, would not be surprised either way

1 minute ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

 

Will Liandrin winkle the girls out of the tower and try and feed them to the Seanchan?

Yes

1 minute ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

 

Are Perrin and Loial going back to the Two Rivers and start building his army?

Yes

1 minute ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

 

Speaking of Perrin is there Young Bull or are the wolves something he fights against the whole series.

There is

1 minute ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

 

Does Matt blow the Horn or will it be Egw or Nyn or Min?

Mat

1 minute ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

 

Does the  White Tower split?

Probably

1 minute ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

 

Are they going to combine Tanchico and Ebou Dar?

Probably

1 minute ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

 

Anyway that's enough for now.

 

 

[Ralph]

2 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

Very interesting thread.  Here are some questions for you seer types.  I would be very interested in your reasoning for each of what could  be yes/no answers.

 

Will there be both Falme and Tear or do they collapse them into one battle?

Don't know, would not be surprised either way

2 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

 

Will Liandrin winkle the girls out of the tower and try and feed them to the Seanchan?

Yes

2 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

 

Are Perrin and Loial going back to the Two Rivers and start building his army?

Yes

2 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

 

Speaking of Perrin is there Young Bull or are the wolves something he fights against the whole series.

There is

2 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

 

Does Matt blow the Horn or will it be Egw or Nyn or Min?

Mat

2 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

 

Does the  White Tower split?

Probably

2 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

 

Are they going to combine Tanchico and Ebou Dar?

Probably

2 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

 

Anyway that's enough for now.

 

 

Sorry not very helpful ?

 

My seering is not working well atm

[AdamA]

1 hour ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

Very interesting thread.  Here are some questions for you seer types.  I would be very interested in your reasoning for each of what could  be yes/no answers.

 

My reasoning here will solely be about how I would approach it.

 

Quote

Will there be both Falme and Tear or do they collapse them into one battle?

 

I think these have to stay separate just because the logistics of finding a similar way to get all the characters on separate paths to the same place without the separation will be near impossible, unless they actually get rid of Egwene being leashed, but I don't think they do that.

 

Quote

Will Liandrin winkle the girls out of the tower and try and feed them to the Seanchan?

 

Yes. As above, I think it's too important that Egwene gets leashed (or collared, as they seem to have gotten rid of the literal leashes). I think it also builds dramatic tension later on to know that Suroth is a darkfriend ahead of time.

 

Quote

Are Perrin and Loial going back to the Two Rivers and start building his army?

 

This I waffle on. On the one hand, the motivation seems to be gone, as there is no reason for whitecloaks to have a hard-on for Perrin now (if anything, they should be blaming Egwene for whoever of them got killed). Obviously, Fain would still want to attract Rand, but I don't know how he sells the whitecloaks on doing it now, which is what gives Perrin a reason to go back. On the other hand, if they totally get rid of the "Lord Perrin" resurrection of Manetheren subplot, you lose an awful lot. I think they have to keep that somehow. Perrin being forced to become a leader is most of his arc.

 

Quote

Speaking of Perrin is there Young Bull or are the wolves something he fights against the whole series.

 

This one is tough, too. Given they kept the wolfbrother in at all, which they did, he seemingly has to become Young Bull and understand them at some point, but I don't think the writers have figured out how to do that. It's easy for Robert Jordan to write "they didn't really speak, but this is what Perrin perceived" and a lot harder for television to have talking wolves without looking like a Disney story.

 

Quote

Does Matt blow the Horn or will it be Egw or Nyn or Min?

 

Has to stay Mat. That's the only reason for most of the story he feels any obligation to follow Rand.

 

Quote

Does the  White Tower split?

 

Yes. No other plausible way to have Egwene as Amyrlin. It's also the principle way in which the "lord of chaos" manifests. Most of the chaos across the countries is due to 1) the forsaken taking over in secret and 2) the White Tower not being able to respond because they're too busy fighting an internal civil war. Preventing a unified human response by keeping everyone fighting each other is pretty much the Dark One's entire fallback plan if he can't capture and control Rand.

 

Quote

Are they going to combine Tanchico and Ebou Dar?

 

Maybe. At some point, they need to ruthlessly cut stuff if they're really only going to get 8 seasons, and the entire heal the weather subplot ends up meaning nothing to the endgame. Winter is just as destructive as the long summer was. The only things that end up ultimately important about Ebou Dar is Mat has to meet Tuon somehow and the girls need to discover the Kin and the Knitting Circle, but that can happen in Tanchico.

 

I'll cry if they do, because I liked the subplot and Elayne became my favorite character from all she did, but if they cut out 1) Elayne's succession, 2) Faile's kidnapping, and 3) heal the weather/Valan Luca, that's a good five books of material and 8 seasons seems suddenly doable without losing any of the stuff that has to happen for players to be in the right place at the right time.

 

Of course, just making sure you get the canonically correct ending without care for how you get there is exactly why the Game of Thrones finish was so terrible. If they invent new reasons for things to happen, I don't trust the show writers nearly as much as I trust Robert Jordan. It's not even just that they're worse writers, but they get a few months per offseason, whereas he had decades to think it all through.

[EmreY]

1 hour ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

but I have trouble crediting his statement when the show manages to mangle several setups within season 1.  Episode 5 makes a big deal out of what the warder bond means for a warder whose Aes Sedai dies, but then Moiraine leaves Lan behind when she thinks she will die at the Eye.

 

The most important warder bond comes later, and has the potential to derail everything, so I'm fine with this.  Indeed, I'm of the opinion that is what is being foreshadowed.

 

[notpropaganda73]

8 hours ago, AdamA said:

This I waffle on. On the one hand, the motivation seems to be gone, as there is no reason for whitecloaks to have a hard-on for Perrin now (if anything, they should be blaming Egwene for whoever of them got killed). Obviously, Fain would still want to attract Rand, but I don't know how he sells the whitecloaks on doing it now, which is what gives Perrin a reason to go back. On the other hand, if they totally get rid of the "Lord Perrin" resurrection of Manetheren subplot, you lose an awful lot. I think they have to keep that somehow. Perrin being forced to become a leader is most of his arc.

 

While I still think they should have given the actual violence in that scene to Perrin to really hammer it home, I still think Valda will want to hunt him. They could easily have it as a "I don't care about those witches, I saw true evil in his eyes" or something. Plus the wolves were the actual killers. Considering how dismissive Valda was of Egwene and they've already shown how confident he is at capturing and killing Aes Sedai, Perrin can be the bigger "prize". 

 

I am still disappointed with how they did that scene but I don't see any difficulty in still bringing the Whitecloaks to the Two Rivers.

Edited January 6, 2022 by notpropaganda73

[notpropaganda73]

5 hours ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

"Rafe has said there are elements in season 1 intended to set things up several seasons down the road, but I have trouble crediting his statement when the show manages to mangle several setups within season 1.  Episode 5 makes a big deal out of what the warder bond means for a warder whose Aes Sedai dies, but then Moiraine leaves Lan behind when she thinks she will die at the Eye.  Moiraine makes a big deal about the danger of the Blight, but she entered it without her warder.  She says to not touch anything, but she and Rand freely touch things as they walk through the Blight.  Episode 3 makes a big deal out an Aiel not wearing a veil being no threat, then episode 7 shows us an unveiled Aiel kill several people." 

 

https://everydayshouldbetuesday.wordpress.com/2021/12/31/book-reader-looks-back-at-season-1-of-the-wheel-of-time-on-prime/

 

I agree that the show did a bad job of setups at times, but I'm not so sure about the Aiel thing. Couldn't the point be that with the veil down she is no threat, but they attacked her anyway? 

 

Though to be honest I wonder how much that really landed for non-book readers anyway. The Aiel conversation was so fleeting in episode 3 and so long before that cold open, my partner had no idea the woman was the same tribe. 

[Lethira the second]

16 hours ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

Very interesting thread.  Here are some questions for you seer types.  I would be very interested in your reasoning for each of what could  be yes/no answers.

 

Will Liandrin winkle the girls out of the tower and try and feed them to the Seanchan?

 

Does the  White Tower split?

 

 

 

Thought I'd just drop an opinion on these two...

 

1. No, I suspect Liandrin will happen upon them in another location and forcibly kidnap them there.

 

2. Yes, but I think they will kill Siuan off.   

[Skipp]

5 hours ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 

While I still think they should have given the actual violence in that scene to Perrin to really hammer it home, I still think Valda will want to hunt him. They could easily have it as a "I don't care about those witches, I saw true evil in his eyes" or something. Plus the wolves were the actual killers. Considering how dismissive Valda was of Egwene and they've already shown how confident he is at capturing and killing Aes Sedai, Perrin can be the bigger "prize". 

 

I am still disappointed with how they did that scene but I don't see any difficulty in still bringing the Whitecloaks to the Two Rivers.

 

Agreed, I think they will have Valda hunt Perrin because he is a new/pure evil or some such.  While I was initially disappointed that Perrin didn't get to slap down Valda I now understand he didn't because of the way of the leaf arc they have put him on.

[Lethira the second]

Why are we sure Valda survived?  

 

I mean, yes it's entirely possible he survived but there have been too many instances already of defeating death.  I guess at this rate they will need to cut Hinderstap.

[DaddyFinn]

7 minutes ago, Lethira the second said:

Why are we sure Valda survived?  

 

I mean, yes it's entirely possible he survived but there have been too many instances already of defeating death.  I guess at this rate they will need to cut Hinderstap.

It looked like Egwene didn't stab him in a fatal spot. Yes, there is a large artery in that region but she probably missed it. No big deal. They wouldn't waste a good villain like Valda so soon

[notpropaganda73]

18 minutes ago, Lethira the second said:

Why are we sure Valda survived?  

 

I mean, yes it's entirely possible he survived but there have been too many instances already of defeating death.  I guess at this rate they will need to cut Hinderstap.

 

I agree with this but it never felt like a "Valda is dead" moment to me. He was too good in the brief time we saw him to kill him off. And the show would really benefit from having a non-Darkfriend villain.

 

However it's just another indicator of how they should have given that moment to Perrin. It would have made for a better scene had Perrin flung Valda across the room and Egwene restrained him from doing any more damage (imo). 

[SBroc]

All of this talk of the Horn and Perrin but no mention of his actual wife  from the books that helps him become Lord Perrin.  I loved their relationship and her strength and connection to Saldea and the Aiel.  Are they just getting rid of her all together?

[DaddyFinn]

3 minutes ago, SBroc said:

Are they just getting rid of her all together?

No. I think Rafe mentioned Faile in a recent interview

[ashi]

40 minutes ago, Skipp said:

 

Agreed, I think they will have Valda hunt Perrin because he is a new/pure evil or some such.  While I was initially disappointed that Perrin didn't get to slap down Valda I now understand he didn't because of the way of the leaf arc they have put him on.

A large difference in motivations, though, is that the Whitecloaks in the books had a justifiable reason to hunt Perrin, even before Dain Bornhald decided that Perrin killed his father, i.e. that Perrin actually killed two of them. A legally justified reason, even, according to Morgase and, more importantly, Perrin himself, who, if you recall, goes "home to die".

 

Perhaps something can happen in season two, but the conflict in the books is more ethically interesting and has more depth of characterization, than evil Valda hunting Perrin the Darkfriend.

[Skipp]

3 minutes ago, SBroc said:

All of this talk of the Horn and Perrin but no mention of his actual wife  from the books that helps him become Lord Perrin.  I loved their relationship and her strength and connection to Saldea and the Aiel.  Are they just getting rid of her all together?

We haven't heard one way or another.  Season 2 might be to early to introduce Faile but I hope she is in the show. 

[Skipp]

3 minutes ago, ashi said:

A large difference in motivations, though, is that the Whitecloaks in the books had a justifiable reason to hunt Perrin, even before Dain Bornhald decided that Perrin killed his father, i.e. that Perrin actually killed two of them. A legally justified reason, even, according to Morgase and, more importantly, Perrin himself, who, if you recall, goes "home to die".

 

Perhaps something can happen in season two, but the conflict in the books is more ethically interesting and has more depth of characterization, than evil Valda hunting Perrin the Darkfriend.

This is all very true but the pay off for the killings doesn't come until the 2nd last book.  There potentially time for Perrin to still kill a couple of Whitecloaks, especially if Valda will cotninue to hunt him down.  While this quick thought still doesn't provide the same ethical conflict we don't know the the show is ging to run with this storyline.  It is quite possible that Perrin's storyline with the whitecloaks ends around the Battle of the TR.

[ashi]

3 minutes ago, Skipp said:

This is all very true but the pay off for the killings doesn't come until the 2nd last book.  There potentially time for Perrin to still kill a couple of Whitecloaks, especially if Valda will cotninue to hunt him down.  While this quick thought still doesn't provide the same ethical conflict we don't know the the show is ging to run with this storyline.  It is quite possible that Perrin's storyline with the whitecloaks ends around the Battle of the TR.

Yes, that is true. Perrin's arc in season 7-8 might well be very different (and perhaps, one may almost hope, a bit compressed [*cough* Masema, Faile, Shaido]).