The Dagger

[Andra]

2 hours ago, Deviations said:

It gives Fain power over fades, but they won't show that progression either.  You're right.  It doesn't matter.  None of it does.  They can tell whatever story they want.  They should tell the story that's in their hearts.  The story that sings to them.  Just don't pretend it's Jordan's story.  To be honest, I really wish Rafe would have written a story from scratch and told that.  It may have been great but we'll never know.

But also the part of the story that they can't skip and even pretend it's the same story - what happens when he cuts Rand with it.

Every bit of what happens at that time is critical to the rest of the story following it.

 

The story arcs for Cadsuane, Darlin, the understanding of the differences between Aes Sedai and Asha'man Healing, even Cleansing Saidin.  All of them are dependent on what the dagger does.

[Deviations]

52 minutes ago, Andra said:

But also the part of the story that they can't skip and even pretend it's the same story - what happens when he cuts Rand with it.

Every bit of what happens at that time is critical to the rest of the story following it.

 

The story arcs for Cadsuane, Darlin, the understanding of the differences between Aes Sedai and Asha'man Healing, even Cleansing Saidin.  All of them are dependent on what the dagger does.

After whatever episode Loial showed up in and I was mocking his costume, I projected the Jolly Green Giant as the Green Man.   I was mocked for believing that the Green Man would even be included (rightly so).  Who knows what they think is critical to the the story?  Darlin?  I'd be shocked if we saw Darlin.  Rand cleansing Saidin?  Maybe we'll get to see Nynaeve cleanse it....  Cadsuane?  We'll probably see three seasons dedicated to her.....

[SingleMort]

19 hours ago, Andra said:

The first character we see killed by the dagger is Turak's top so'jhin Huon.  By Mat.

Earlier he held it against a darkfriend's neck to keep her from killing Rand with her knife that boiled a bucket of water.  A darkfriend who we meet again later and learn her name (Shiane/Mili Skane).  But he leaves her alive.

The first person we see Fain kill with it is the Accepted in the basement of the Tower when he steals it back and talks to Alviarin.

Both those victims die fast and hard.

Think it's pretty obvious at this point that the rules of the dagger are going to be very different. What I don't understand is why they even needed to? With a few simple tweaks you can have the exact same scene but keep the dagger the same as it was in the books. 

 

For example instead of using a dagger Fain could have just used a regular sword to do his stabbings, and when Perrin comes in and sees him standing over Loial he could pull out the dagger from his belt and say something like "Your friend's lucky I didn't use this one. The last person I used it on didn't even look human by the end of it. A quick death" he grinned unpleasantly "But definitely not a painless one. Maybe I'll give you a demonstration one day"

 

There! Now we've established what the dagger can do and that Fain has it but hasn't used it on Loial. As for why Fain wouldn't have used it you could argue because they were fighting Shieneran warriors and an Ogier he would probably need a weapon with a longer reach. Otherwise he might be cut down before he got close enough to use it. Alternatively you could say he deliberately left Loial alive for the same blah blah reasons he left Perrin alive. I'm not saying this is perfect and would fix all the problems just saying by just adding a couple extra lines of dialogue would fix most of the problems with the dagger

 

Spoiler

 and spare us another miraculous resurrection scene that it sounds like they are going to do with Loial.

 

Edited January 12, 2022 by SingleMort

[Andra]

4 hours ago, SingleMort said:

Think it's pretty obvious at this point that the rules of the dagger are going to be very different. What I don't understand is why they even needed to? With a few simple tweaks you can have the exact same scene but keep the dagger the same as it was in the books. 

 

For example instead of using a dagger Fain could have just used a regular sword to do his stabbings, and when Perrin comes in and sees him standing over Loial he could pull out the dagger from his belt and say something like "Your friend's lucky I didn't use this one. The last person I used it on didn't even look human by the end of it. A quick death" he grinned unpleasantly "But definitely not a painless one. Maybe I'll give you a demonstration one day"

 

There! Now we've established what the dagger can do and that Fain has it but hasn't used it on Loial. As for why Fain wouldn't have used it you could argue because they were fighting Shieneran warriors and an Ogier he would probably need a weapon with a longer reach. Otherwise he might be cut down before he got close enough to use it. Alternatively you could say he deliberately left Loial alive for the same blah blah reasons he left Perrin alive. I'm not saying this is perfect and would fix all the problems just saying by just adding a couple extra lines of dialogue would fix most of the problems with the dagger

 

  Hide contents

 and spare us another miraculous resurrection scene that it sounds like they are going to do with Loial.

 

Giving Rafe the benefit of a level of cleverness I'm not sure he deserves, perhaps the result will be similar to Tolkien and the Tom Bombadil scene with the ring. 

Unlike the way everyone else wil be affected by it, will Ogier be in some way "immune?"  Obviously an Ogier can be killed with a sharp pointy object, but maybe the evil of Shadar Logoth doesn't do anything else to them?  Because it's an evil made by humans, it only affects humans?

 

That could be an interesting story, but it's a completely different story.

 

Because in the universe of the books, it absolutely affects more than humans.

[Ralph]

1 hour ago, Andra said:

 

 

Because in the universe of the books, it absolutely affects more than humans.

Do you have evidence for this? 

[Deviations]

12 hours ago, SingleMort said:

Think it's pretty obvious at this point that the rules of the dagger are going to be very different.

There won't be any 'rules'.  It this point, it's a dagger and not much else.

[Andra]

9 hours ago, Ralph said:

Do you have evidence for this? 

The dagger's influence is implied as part of the explanation of how he can command Shadowspawn (including Myrddraal) to go against their orders.  I believe it's mentioned in at least one point that a Myrddraal is actually afraid of it.

[Ralph]

11 minutes ago, Andra said:

The dagger's influence is implied as part of the explanation of how he can command Shadowspawn (including Myrddraal) to go against their orders.  I believe it's mentioned in at least one point that a Myrddraal is actually afraid of it.

Good point

 

Ogier are from a different world, though

[Andra]

6 minutes ago, Ralph said:

Good point

 

Ogier are from a different world, though

True.  Sort of.

At least we are led to believe so.

 

The books don't ever tell us where they're originally from, but they do tell us it's a place they could go back to and leave the world of humans permanently.  Maybe it's more like all gathering in one big Stedding, then closing it off like the Ways are.

 

We do know that they didn't used to be tied to the Stedding, and the Seanchan Gardeners don't seem to be tied to them now.  So perhaps that "different world" is just on a continent away from Randland.

[SingleMort]

49 minutes ago, Ralph said:

Good point

 

Ogier are from a different world, though

 

 

12 hours ago, Andra said:

Giving Rafe the benefit of a level of cleverness I'm not sure he deserves, perhaps the result will be similar to Tolkien and the Tom Bombadil scene with the ring. 

Unlike the way everyone else wil be affected by it, will Ogier be in some way "immune?"  Obviously an Ogier can be killed with a sharp pointy object, but maybe the evil of Shadar Logoth doesn't do anything else to them?  Because it's an evil made by humans, it only affects humans?

but wasn't Uno also stabbed with the dagger as well? It's one thing to say Ogier aren't affected by things that kill humans (though we are talking about evil magic not some kind of poison so my head spins trying to think of how that would work) but it's quite another to give Uno a get out clause for this too unless they are going to do some kind of Avengers Engame scenario.

[Ralph]

39 minutes ago, SingleMort said:

 

 

but wasn't Uno also stabbed with the dagger as well? It's one thing to say Ogier aren't affected by things that kill humans (though we are talking about evil magic not some kind of poison so my head spins trying to think of how that would work) but it's quite another to give Uno a get out clause for this too unless they are going to do some kind of Avengers Engame scenario.

 

We don't know what Uno was stabbed with. Could have been Myrddraal sword. 

 

 

 

But I think everyone agrees they have done this far too often even just in the last episode. And none of them necessary. 

1 hour ago, Andra said:

True.  Sort of.

At least we are led to believe so.

 

The books don't ever tell us where they're originally from, but they do tell us it's a place they could go back to and leave the world of humans permanently.  Maybe it's more like all gathering in one big Stedding, then closing it off like the Ways are.

 

We do know that they didn't used to be tied to the Stedding, and the Seanchan Gardeners don't seem to be tied to them now.  So perhaps that "different world" is just on a continent away from Randland.

Book of Translation sounds like more than that. And RJ confirmed this

[AdamA]

I'm pretty sure Uno was stabbed with a Myrddraal sword, but that doesn't help, since that is also supposed to be auto-death sentence. Also, the Lord Yakota guy that also got killed by a Myrddraal sword was supposed to be Ingtar until the actor took a different role and they changed his character and recast Ingtar to not appear until season two. That implies to me they were also originally going to have Ingtar survive the stabbing.

 

A bunch of puzzling decisions, but I guess it means Myrddraal blades don't have the same effect in show universe. Arguably, that's not a big deal, as honestly, the whole "tempered with a human soul" thing was always a kind of silly evil that sounded like a 7 year-old came up with the idea (on brand for the often childish Dark One, but still silly).

 

Ogier seemingly have to come from a different world, to the extent Randland is just future Earth and we don't have anything on current Earth that seems on path to evolving into an Ogier in the next 6,000 years or so, and they're not constructs. Much like the Seanchan mythical beasts, they had to have originated elsewhere.

[Andra]

1 hour ago, Ralph said:

Book of Translation sounds like more than that. And RJ confirmed this

That was my impression from reading it.  It's just that the text doesn't make it clear enough to be certain.

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

On 12/26/2021 at 10:45 AM, Yojimbo said:

Jordan's Rules on how things work are only Suggestions to the writers of the show.  

HEY! Stop right there! I have it on good authority that Rafe did all the research he could to make sure he mastered The Jordan Rules before beginning work on the show. I remember him bursting into my office one day and shouting, "I've got it! It's so simple! Every time he drives to the paint, we put him on the ground! Wear him out! So what if he goes for 40 a game, there's no way he can keep that up for a 7 game series!" 

 

I said, "What does that have to do with Wheel of Time?" 

 

Rafe's eyes glazed over. "Wheel of what, now?" 

 

I never saw him again. 

Edited January 12, 2022 by JeffTheWoodlandElf

[Andra]

2 hours ago, AdamA said:

I'm pretty sure Uno was stabbed with a Myrddraal sword, but that doesn't help, since that is also supposed to be auto-death sentence. Also, the Lord Yakota guy that also got killed by a Myrddraal sword was supposed to be Ingtar until the actor took a different role and they changed his character and recast Ingtar to not appear until season two. That implies to me they were also originally going to have Ingtar survive the stabbing.

 

A bunch of puzzling decisions, but I guess it means Myrddraal blades don't have the same effect in show universe. Arguably, that's not a big deal, as honestly, the whole "tempered with a human soul" thing was always a kind of silly evil that sounded like a 7 year-old came up with the idea (on brand for the often childish Dark One, but still silly).

 

Ogier seemingly have to come from a different world, to the extent Randland is just future Earth and we don't have anything on current Earth that seems on path to evolving into an Ogier in the next 6,000 years or so, and they're not constructs. Much like the Seanchan mythical beasts, they had to have originated elsewhere.

From the books, it makes it sound like Thakandar blades, while seriously deadly, don't kill quite as quickly as the dagger.

Tam was cut with Trolloc's sword rather than a Myrddraal's, but it was still apparently a Thakandar blade.  A nick would have killed him eventually, but not so fast that they couldn't get him to Moiraine.

Spoiler

Another survivor of a Myrddraal's sword (or two) was Talmanes. 

 

But then he was just too busy to die. ?

 

Edited January 12, 2022 by Andra