Siuan and Moiraine’s Relationship

[JenniferL]

The episode where I really noticed the lack of male gaze was the one where the Whitecloaks capture Egwene and Perrin. If this was GoT we would have seen almost all of Egwene’s body while they were “purifying” her and it would have been very sexualized. Instead, the focus was almost entirely on her face and her anguish. You saw close ups of arms and legs being scrubbed roughly and the most violent thing shown was cleaning her finger nails (if you’ve never had a manicure that part can really HURT if the person doing it isn’t careful). Hands and especially finger tips are are really sensitive and intimate part of your body. There is a reason we hold hands with people we love. So that part felt incredibly invasive to me and really emphasized the horror of what the Whitecloaks were doing to her. 

[Therese Sedai]

31 minutes ago, JenniferL said:

The episode where I really noticed the lack of male gaze was the one where the Whitecloaks capture Egwene and Perrin. If this was GoT we would have seen almost all of Egwene’s body while they were “purifying” her and it would have been very sexualized. Instead, the focus was almost entirely on her face and her anguish. You saw close ups of arms and legs being scrubbed roughly and the most violent thing shown was cleaning her finger nails (if you’ve never had a manicure that part can really HURT if the person doing it isn’t careful). Hands and especially finger tips are are really sensitive and intimate part of your body. There is a reason we hold hands with people we love. So that part felt incredibly invasive to me and really emphasized the horror of what the Whitecloaks were doing to her. 

Well said. I think the audience really got a feeling of unease and distress there.
 

Another instance were I had an “aha!” moment was in the bathhouse. The attendants were nude and one of my friends commented that he thought it was unnecessary. It occurred to me that if it was a men’s bathhouse with nude women attending them that the conversation surrounding necessity might have been a non-starter, such is our desensitisation to the male gaze. 

[DaddyFinn]

I didn't even notice any boobs. Maybe my TV's brightness was too low. Oh well, I don't care. ?‍♂️ 

[dorotea]

I don't care much for S/M one way or another, if it adds entertainment value, it is ok. They look kinda good and relaxed together, but I won't cry when they are separated. RJ really sucked at romance to be honest, and Rafe and Co is not much better. But I do appreciate Siuan's taste in clothes and jewelry in the show, vs the books Siuan being a minimalist aesthetic. I do feel the S&M vibe from Moraine, and I guess they are planning to play this to the hilt eventually with both of the gals. But as I said I won't shed a tear for them because honestly the show makes them both appear clueless while meddling in the affairs of Dark Powers and the Tower Politics. I mean, the boo Siuan IS clever as a pike. The show one is not as strong nor as decisive, not strict. As I joked on twitter the book Siuan would have Nyn hanging upside down bound and gagged with air while lecturing her on the merit of arguing with the Amyrlin. The show is basically making the Tower discipline akin to the discipline level in nowadays American high-school, i.e. zilch.

[Katherine]

22 hours ago, Mirefox said:

I think it is an unbelievably sad commentary on our society that there cannot be Platonic love without someone trying to sexualize it.  The scene was crude and forced and about as natural as if Sam and Frodo hooked up after Sam rescued Frodo in Cirith Ungol because, after all, they had bathed together and laid naked on the downs together and Sam had kissed Frodo when he recovered in Rivendell…

 

Sexualizing a platonic relationship cheapens greatly a relationship that so many would love and very few actually achieve.

I am nervous about how this issue will play out with Elayne and Aviendha. Nothing I ever read made me think they were lovers, but women committed to one another and who would die for one another. Sisters in every sense of the word. 

 

I would prefer that they show a true sisterhood style friendship. 

 

 

[Windigo]

53 minutes ago, Katherine said:

I am nervous about how this issue will play out with Elayne and Aviendha. Nothing I ever read made me think they were lovers, but women committed to one another and who would die for one another. Sisters in every sense of the word. 

 

I would prefer that they show a true sisterhood style friendship. 

 

 

I too have this worry, one of the strengths of the books were the platonic love and commitment many characters had with others (both male and female).  Like the warder bond was strong whether it was sexual or not. While I did not mind the S/M relationship change, I will miss the non-romantic sisterhood and lifelong partners, friends working on a cause aspect. 

[Windigo]

5 hours ago, JenniferL said:

The episode where I really noticed the lack of male gaze was the one where the Whitecloaks capture Egwene and Perrin. If this was GoT we would have seen almost all of Egwene’s body while they were “purifying” her and it would have been very sexualized. Instead, the focus was almost entirely on her face and her anguish. You saw close ups of arms and legs being scrubbed roughly and the most violent thing shown was cleaning her finger nails (if you’ve never had a manicure that part can really HURT if the person doing it isn’t careful). Hands and especially finger tips are are really sensitive and intimate part of your body. There is a reason we hold hands with people we love. So that part felt incredibly invasive to me and really emphasized the horror of what the Whitecloaks were doing to her. 

I agree this was well done, it had everything it needed to feel how it was invasive, and abusive, it was the first scene where I think the actress really showed to me she can do the character's storyline well.  

[Storeebooq]

I love that they are expanding their relationship and deepening it. 

 

I was a literal ball of tears during the Oath Rod scene, especially when Moiraine spoke her part. That scene was powerful to me. Heck the entire exile scene had me deep in my feels. 

 

If there's never a relationship between Mor and Thom, and between Siuan and Gareth in the show I will be pretty happy personally. 

[Meskell]

11 hours ago, Storeebooq said:

I love that they are expanding their relationship and deepening it. 

 

I was a literal ball of tears during the Oath Rod scene, especially when Moiraine spoke her part. That scene was powerful to me. Heck the entire exile scene had me deep in my feels. 

 

If there's never a relationship between Mor and Thom, and between Siuan and Gareth in the show I will be pretty happy personally. 

If the oath rod scene had been in private then the dialogue would’ve at least been vaguely understandable. For it to be in public just makes everyone from Siuan, Moiraine and every AS in attendance to be an absolute moron.  

Edited December 12, 2021 by CaddySedai
Removal of prohibited word. No other changes.

[DojoToad]

17 hours ago, JenniferL said:

The episode where I really noticed the lack of male gaze was the one where the Whitecloaks capture Egwene and Perrin. If this was GoT we would have seen almost all of Egwene’s body while they were “purifying” her and it would have been very sexualized. Instead, the focus was almost entirely on her face and her anguish. You saw close ups of arms and legs being scrubbed roughly and the most violent thing shown was cleaning her finger nails (if you’ve never had a manicure that part can really HURT if the person doing it isn’t careful). Hands and especially finger tips are are really sensitive and intimate part of your body. There is a reason we hold hands with people we love. So that part felt incredibly invasive to me and really emphasized the horror of what the Whitecloaks were doing to her. 

Yes, very much in the spirit of the books.  You know there is nudity, humiliation but it is not seen - and that is fine.  Got that part right for sure.

[elteryon]

I'm honestly pretty good without the Moiraine/Thom relationship. That one never made sense to me as I read through the books.

 

For Siuan/Gareth, my book memory is fuzzy, but doesn't that relationship stem from Siuan/Leane breaking an oath to Gareth or in Siuan's mind delayed fulfillment of said oath. Siuan ends up as his maid/servant/attendent. I have a hard time seeing that storyline play out well on screen or being enough of an influence on the overall story to make the cut.

 

That being said, I like the extension of Moiraine and Siuan's relationship into something more mature than the pillow friends concept from the books which always felt immature to me.

[MasterAblar]

Moiraine and Siuan’s relationship basically ends here anyway. They never see each other again, or perhaps they do just before the last battle and Siuan’s death. In fact both believe the other is dead before that I believe.

 

I can see Gareth and Siuan happening if not exactly as it did in the books. Moiraine and Thom seems harder, but it came out of nowhere in the books even though I thought it was rather cute.

[DaddyFinn]

15 hours ago, dorotea said:

RJ really sucked at romance to be honest, and Rafe and Co is not much better.

What's so bad in the show romances? We have Rand&Egwene, Nynaeve&Lan and Moiraine&Siuan, right?

[DigificWriter]

17 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

What's so bad in the show romances? We have Rand&Egwene, Nynaeve&Lan and Moiraine&Siuan, right?

 

You forgot Perrin/Laila and Alanna/Maksim/Ihvan.

[RhienneAgain]

14 hours ago, Windigo said:

I too have this worry, one of the strengths of the books were the platonic love and commitment many characters had with others (both male and female).  Like the warder bond was strong whether it was sexual or not. While I did not mind the S/M relationship change, I will miss the non-romantic sisterhood and lifelong partners, friends working on a cause aspect. 

Oh goodness, you've really hit the nail on the head here.  So far, of the close platonic relationships from the books we have already seen Lan's and Moiraine's relationship be used to hint at sexual relations between Aes Sedai and Warders, and Siuan's and Moiraine's commitment to a shared goal edited to include a sex scene.  I really hope that the other friendships of the books are left well alone (Rand and Nynaeve, Elayne and Nynaeve, Elayne and Aviendha, Elayne and Birgitte, etc.).  Romantic relationships weren't RJ's strong point, in my opinion, but as you say, the platonic relationships he built were really beautiful.  The ceremony between Aviendha and Elayne was one of my favourite scenes (and this is coming from someone who isn't particularly a fan of either of them).

[DigificWriter]

31 minutes ago, RhienneAgain said:

So far, of the close platonic relationships from the books we have already seen Lan's and Moiraine's relationship be used to hint at sexual relations between Aes Sedai and Warders

 

This comment represents a misinterpretation of what we have both been shown and repeatedly told by the producers and actors.

Edited December 12, 2021 by DigificWriter

[RhienneAgain]

1 hour ago, DigificWriter said:

 

This comment represents a misinterpretation of what we have both been shown and repeatedly told by the producers and actors.

You can't really misinterpret art. It suggests different things to different people. The interactions between Lan and Moiraine prior to episode 6 led lots of people to believe that either Lan and Moiraine were in a sexual relationship, or that the producers and actors intended to mislead the audience into thinking this. The producers and actors may not have intended this, but this is the effect their art had on a lot of people.

 

Just like the scene where Perrin killed Layla and a significant number of viewers understood from the scene that Layla was going to kill Perrin. The writers didn't intend this, but that's how it came across to a lot of people.

 

 

Edited December 12, 2021 by RhienneAgain

[DigificWriter]

^ In both of those cases, the producers/writers/actors involved were quick to correct people's interpretations of what was being presented, so, yes, you can misinterpret art.

 

Also, having characters within the show misinterpret things is not the same thing as misrepresenting things to the audience.

 

For example, Warders good-naturedly ribbing their friend Lan about Moiraine and the nature of their relationship and Nynaeve drawing the wrong conclusions shows us things about Nynaeve, not the actual nature of Lan and Moiraine's bond, especially when other scenes between Lan and Moiraine clearly demonstrate an intimate platonic link between them.

[dorotea]

2 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

What's so bad in the show romances? We have Rand&Egwene, Nynaeve&Lan and Moiraine&Siuan, right?

Quantity does not necessarily translate into quality. Rand-Eggwene sux for me as a book-reader because it (IMHO) is a second-brewed Gawyn-Egwene, only less fun because of no dreams; Nynaeve-Lan is a bad take because she was made into a green power ranger lounging after a cool Dojo master ( father figure instead of a lover); Moiraine is distracting Siuan from her duty  as Amyrlin of saving the World and the two of them look like bumbling giggling novices (except they are now in their fifties) who are having sekret sex in between leisurely and randomly looking for 'something that cannot be named' while arguing if the prophesy even matters. In other words the two of them are still having their 'great adventure' even though by now ( in their fifties as I mentioned) they should have known better. Siuan is a stateswoman who acts like Queen Anne instead of Queen Elizabeth she was in the books.

[Storeebooq]

8 hours ago, Meskell said:

If the oath rod scene had been in private then the dialogue would’ve at least been vaguely understandable. For it to be in public just makes everyone from Siuan, Moiraine and every AS in attendance to be an absolute moron.  

That seen was powerful, but also a bit awkward. For a bit I was worried that the other Aes Sedai could hear, but at the point where Moiraine loudly spoke the last few lines I interpreted it as words being spoken and shared quietly (even with emotion), and were not carried across the hall. That's how I took it at least. 

 

My only actual gripe with the scene was that they used the Oath Rod in the first place. It felt like it diminished the significance of the Rod. That in the books it was ONLY used (by current Aes Sedai) to essentially signify a final step in becoming an Aes Sedai, rather than as a punishment device as used in the Age of Legends, was important. I don't like that it was used punitively here, as much as I loved the emotional exchange of the scene. 

Edited December 12, 2021 by Storeebooq

[TheDreadReader]

In the Hall of the Servants, when Siuan questions Moiraine, and Moiraine says "She cannot say".....  is the reason she can't say because she is bound by the oath rod?

 

 

 

 

[DigificWriter]

Almost everything that happens between Siuan and Moiraine in public is a deliberate performance, including the Oath Swearing towards the conclusion of the episode.

 

The only exception to that is Moiraine's whispered alteration of the Oath that Siuan tells her to recite.

 

Siuan isn't actually expecting an answer from Moiraine when Liandrin forces the both of them into a corner by publicly turning Siuan's scorn away from her (Liandrin), but she can't very well validate Liandrin's accusation of favoritism through inaction.

[RhienneAgain]

3 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

^ In both of those cases, the producers/writers/actors involved were quick to correct people's interpretations of what was being presented, so, yes, you can misinterpret art.

 

Also, having characters within the show misinterpret things is not the same thing as misrepresenting things to the audience.

 

For example, Warders good-naturedly ribbing their friend Lan about Moiraine and the nature of their relationship and Nynaeve drawing the wrong conclusions shows us things about Nynaeve, not the actual nature of Lan and Moiraine's bond, especially when other scenes between Lan and Moiraine clearly demonstrate an intimate platonic link between them.

I think we'll need to agree to disagree on this.  You can certainly interpret something from art different from what the artist intended.  That doesn't make your interpretation wrong.  It either means that the artist has not communicated his intended message clearly (or at least unambiguously), or that your life experiences/background/whatever mean that when you see/hear something, it has a different meaning for you than for someone else.  

 

You clearly felt the interaction between Lan and Moiraine indicated an intense platonic relationship.  Extrapolating from the intense debate on the subject on this forum alone, I would suggest that thousands of viewers interpreted the interactions as potentially indicating a sexual relationship.  Rafe wouldn't have felt the need to come out and explain his intentions with their interactions if so many people hadn't seen it as something else (similarly with Perrin's wife).

[RhienneAgain]

1 hour ago, TheDreadReader said:

In the Hall of the Servants, when Siuan questions Moiraine, and Moiraine says "She cannot say".....  is the reason she can't say because she is bound by the oath rod?

 

 

 

 

I guess she must be otherwise it would be a lie...she would need to say "I will not", or "I refuse to".  Interesting point.

[JenniferL]

10 minutes ago, RhienneAgain said:

I think we'll need to agree to disagree on this.  You can certainly interpret something from art different from what the artist intended.  That doesn't make your interpretation wrong.  It either means that the artist has not communicated his intended message clearly (or at least unambiguously), or that your life experiences/background/whatever mean that when you see/hear something, it has a different meaning for you than for someone else.  

 

You clearly felt the interaction between Lan and Moiraine indicated an intense platonic relationship.  Extrapolating from the intense debate on the subject on this forum alone, I would suggest that thousands of viewers interpreted the interactions as potentially indicating a sexual relationship.  Rafe wouldn't have felt the need to come out and explain his intentions with their interactions if so many people hadn't seen it as something else (similarly with Perrin's wife).

If an audience finds ambiguity in a work of art where none was intended by the artist, then that is a flaw in the art and it’s fine to note that. 
 

From my perspective, I did see any ambiguity in either of those moments but we all see things differently.