Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[Asthereal]

12 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Grow into what? The character is utterly stifled! Might as well have made him Homer Simpson…..Certainly not even a Ned Flanders at this point.

I don't know, I didn't write the scenario. Would have been worse if I had, believe me. ?

 

But Lan gets a lot of screentime here. He needs a character arc. So does the rest, and they seem adamant (adament? this language is hard) to have nobody get a proper arc. Instead they want to be plot-heavy. Which is a mistake, I think. If we don't care about the characters, we won't care about the plot either.

[ashi]

1 hour ago, notpropaganda73 said:

I loved Tam explaining the Wheel to Rand in episode 1. I think if we are lucky enough to see the show all the way to the end, this speech will be key for Rand & the Veins of Gold. That sort of scene says to me they are really taking a long view to things and gives me faith that they understand the thrust of the story, even if we don't like some (or all) of the changes so far. 

I see your point, and callbacks can be very nice.

 

Sadly, I felt the opposite, that it (and what Logain said that his voices had told him) might instead cheapen the upcoming Veins of Gold. Rand, instead of rising from all the trauma (both personal and that of LTT), coming, because of his character and experience, to that realization, may now instead recall something his father said. And even if he doesn't, the audience might.

 

It might, if you will, turn into a learned recollection, that Tam was right, rather than a personal realization because of his experience and character.

 

And it's hardly as significant, or momentous, when it is stated as a matter of fact by Tam, a farmer turned solider turned blademaster turned farmer (not to diminish him at all), as when it an idea searched after in crisis, by someone who has broken the world once, killing his entire family, shouldered incredible responsibility to the point of going insane, who is actually going insane, and who is at the point of despair and on the precipice of breaking the world again.

 

But we shall see.

 

Edit: again sadly, I don't feel they understand this aspect of the story - or rather they might understand it as someone watching a fish swim through an ocean might, but not as someone who has actually swum.

 

Edit again: or more to the point, as someone who has heard someone tell of a great realization - and who thinks that the words of this telling is the important thing, and not the actual realization.

Edited January 20, 2022 by ashi

[VooDooNut]

1 minute ago, Asthereal said:

I don't know, I didn't write the scenario. Would have been worse if I had, believe me. ?

 

But Lan gets a lot of screentime here. He needs a character arc. So does the rest, and they seem adamant (adament? this language is hard) to have nobody get a proper arc. Instead they want to be plot-heavy. Which is a mistake, I think. If we don't care about the characters, we won't care about the plot either.

Release the @Astherealcut!

[Asthereal]

2 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

Release the @Astherealcut!

My writing experience so far is one pretty bad novella, a couple of meh shorts and two chapters of something I am now completely stuck in. So yeah, I'd recommend myself over the GoT guys, but nearly everybody else should be better. ? 

[Juan Farstrider]

2 hours ago, Skipp said:

 

Well it wasn't a tornado that they summoned, just a large lightning blast that blew outwards from them without discretion.

 

As for your second point, why would Moiraine have wanted to stay in the TR.  The Trolloc horde was a convenient way to get her charges to leave with her immediately.  But for the sake of argument lets say they did stay behind to fight the horde.  I have said several times previously that the reason the Channeling was so effective in the last episode is because they burned themselves out.  It does seem if you reach that limit you can do a lot more damage than you could manage otherwise.  So Moiraine probably could have destroyed that Trolloc horde with Nynaeve and Egwene, neverminding the fact that neither had touched the source previously, but Moiraine would have to burnout and possibly kill 2 of her possible dragon candidates.

 

 

The difference between rare power and skill.  Amalisa, despite being weak in the power had the skill to draw on the reservoirs that were Nynaeve and Egwene.  Egwene despite her rare power didn't know how to weave a proper attack.

 

The Show could decide this is not the case, but it doesn't take any mental leaps to reach this conclusion

You're asking why she would want to stay, and I'm talking about not letting their village be over run as they sneak away with the only ones who can heal. I'm not saying they should not leave, I'm saying they had a resource we see at the end they didn't use in the beginning. This kind of flaw comes up in movies all the time, and there is no way it is a flaw all those other times but not a flaw here. 

As for it not being a tornado, are you saying for a fact that they controlled this "storm" in ways that storms are not controllable? What I said about a tornado is true of every other kind of storm including lightning storms like those that happen at El Capitan or by that river in Venezuela. It was characterized as something you conjur and just release-- no way, not buying it. But, you bought it and I hope it gets you where you want to go. You accept it as presented, but you can not rationalize it into being accepted by people who find it wanting.  

[KakitaOCU]

24 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

MASS AOE HEAL

What's more complicated?  Curing a massive systemic infection attacking everything at once, or closing 12 open wounds?  

You know, I think I begin to understand the issue here.  Maybe the show was written too much assuming certain knowledge bases?  As I realize my thoughts often stem from just understanding how things work IRL or what would be more complicated in general.

 

17 minutes ago, Juan Farstrider said:

I don't recall saying you were vague. Maybe I implied it.

You did not.  That part was in response to something another poster said stating I was avoiding answering directly on that point.  I don't agree with everything else you said but it was all said well and I have no arguments.  Thank you for honest debate, I really appreciate it.  ?  I will say my stating things firmly is not a claim to fact, merely the result of debating honestly.  One shouldn't have to IMO everything they say, but trust people to understand from context and facts available.  But again, apologies for misunderstandsings.

 

 

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by KakitaOCU

[Cauthonfan4]

6 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

What's more complicated?  Curing a massive systemic infection attacking everything at once, or closing 12 open wounds?

It was far more rhen a simple 12 open wounds. Dude lans throat was slit and he was bleeding out.

 

And she wasn't even touching multiple of her targets.

 

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by Cauthonfan4

[Juan Farstrider]

2 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

One shouldn't have to IMO everything they say, but trust people to understand from context and facts available. 

Well, I think it helps to remember there's are distances between things like: 1) our points of views, 2) the things we are having opinions about, 3) the execution of those who created those things, and 4) their intentions. So, it's more than just putting or not putting "IMO", or God-forbid "IMHO", before everything, but maybe looking at the gaps between the non-exhaustive 4 examples of where gaps might occur and presenting views that acknowledge these gaps. It does come off as certitude, as I'm much of what I'm typing does, where there really can't be. When there can be certitude though, it deserves to sound like it. And, just in general, I think when we reserve sounding certain for when we are certain, the literal world would be better (to some extent anyway). 

[KakitaOCU]

3 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

It was far more rhen a simple 12 open wounds. Dude lans throat was slit and he was bleeding out.

 

And she wasn't even touching multiple of her targets.

A slashes throat is an open wound, it's a single cut or puncture.  Assuming the person has the dexterity to get the vein and is quick enough it's not super hard to fix from a medical perspective.  

Healing doesn't require touch in the show, that's already been established.  If you don't like that change, that's fair, but it's not out of nowhere.

[ashi]

6 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Healing doesn't require touch in the show, that's already been established.  If you don't like that change, that's fair, but it's not out of nowhere.

Meh, it's an indication that they let what is possible be defined by what some cool scene that someone wants to write requires, rather than writing scenes that fit an established framework.

 

Sadly not uncommon in television, but also arguably one of the things that diminished the later seasons of GoT (not to speak of season 8), though (at least to me) it is much worse when it is done to characters.

Edited January 20, 2022 by ashi

[Juan Farstrider]

1 minute ago, KakitaOCU said:

A slashes throat is an open wound, it's a single cut or puncture.  Assuming the person has the dexterity to get the vein and is quick enough it's not super hard to fix from a medical perspective.  

Healing doesn't require touch in the show, that's already been established.  If you don't like that change, that's fair, but it's not out of nowhere.

A slashed throat is not a puncture, two very different kinds of wounds. It's not super hard to fix from a medical perspective? Is it harder to fix from any other perspective? Is any other perspective relevant? Do you have this medical perspective? 

I'd have to rewatch the show to see when healing seems to need touching and when it doesn't to see if you are right that it doesn't need it or if it seems to sometimes need it. Why it needs specific looking and thinking and whatever to fix one thing, but can be done en mass other times. My suspicion? Writing that is more concerned with getting to the next plot point than with respecting the audience's intelligence.  

[Raal Gurniss]

31 minutes ago, Asthereal said:

I don't know, I didn't write the scenario. Would have been worse if I had, believe me. ?

 

But Lan gets a lot of screentime here. He needs a character arc. So does the rest, and they seem adamant (adament? this language is hard) to have nobody get a proper arc. Instead they want to be plot-heavy. Which is a mistake, I think. If we don't care about the characters, we won't care about the plot either.

He has had his character arc previously! Thats the issue! He is supposed to be a fully matured and developed character already compared to the younger characters that are supposed to be the focus of development.

[Raal Gurniss]

18 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

What's more complicated?  Curing a massive systemic infection attacking everything at once, or closing 12 open wounds?  

You know, I think I begin to understand the issue here.  Maybe the show was written too much assuming certain knowledge bases?  As I realize my thoughts often stem from just understanding how things work IRL or what would be more complicated in general.

 

You did not.  That part was in response to something another poster said stating I was avoiding answering directly on that point.  I don't agree with everything else you said but it was all said well and I have no arguments.  Thank you for honest debate, I really appreciate it.  ?  I will say my stating things firmly is not a claim to fact, merely the result of debating honestly.  One shouldn't have to IMO everything they say, but trust people to understand from context and facts available.  But again, apologies for misunderstandsings.

 

 

 

….How does she even know what injuries they have without even looking? Again, this is just another example of poor writing.

[MasterAblar]

2 minutes ago, ashi said:

Meh, it's an indication that they let what is possible be defined by what some cool scene that someone wants to write requires, rather than writing scenes that fit an established framework.

 

Sadly not uncommon in Hollywood, but also arguably one of the things that diminished the later seasons of GoT (not to speak of season 8), though (at least to me) it is much worse when it is done to characters.

 

Stictly speaking I believe there is an exemple in the books of someone being healed without touch. It was brought up when this episode aired. Actually Ishamael heals LTT without touching him as well, although that's the True Power so you could argue that doesn't count.

 

I think the scene is probably over the top in terms of showing Nyneave's healing ability, but I don't mind since it perfectly fits Nyneave channelling from a deeply emotional place. She's shown in the books to channel instinctively at various times (balefire being the most prominent exemple).

 

Later exemples such as in the ways against machin sin were unecessary to me. Moiraine should have handled that like in the books in my opinion.

[Raal Gurniss]

4 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

 

Stictly speaking I believe there is an exemple in the books of someone being healed without touch. It was brought up when this episode aired. Actually Ishamael heals LTT without touching him as well, although that's the True Power so you could argue that doesn't count.

 

I think the scene is probably over the top in terms of showing Nyneave's healing ability, but I don't mind since it perfectly fits Nyneave channelling from a deeply emotional place. She's shown in the books to channel instinctively at various times (balefire being the most prominent exemple).

 

Later exemples such as in the ways against machin sin were unecessary to me. Moiraine should have handled that like in the books in my opinion.

And without even looking or being even aware of dozens of people being injured(let alone what injuries) with her main focus of rage being elsewhere?

 

Seems unlikely don’t you think?

[ashi]

8 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

Stictly speaking I believe there is an exemple in the books of someone being healed without touch.

Maybe this?

 

Quote

CoS, chapter 36

 

Flinn traced his finger along the puffy gash in Rand's side and across the old scar. That did seem more tender. "These are alike, but different, as if there's two kinds of infection at work. Only it isn't infection; it's ... darkness. I can't think of a better word."

 

"I hope nobody minds if I talk," he said, beginning to move callused hands above Rand's side. "Talking seems to help a mite." He squinted, focusing on the injuries, and his fingers writhed 'slowly. Very much as though he was weaving threads, Min realized.

Not touch, no, but close proximity and a focus on the particular injuries.

Edited January 20, 2022 by ashi

[KakitaOCU]

8 minutes ago, Juan Farstrider said:

A slashed throat is not a puncture, two very different kinds of wounds. It's not super hard to fix from a medical perspective? Is it harder to fix from any other perspective? Is any other perspective relevant? Do you have this medical perspective? 

First Aid and basic EMT training, nothing doctor level and would happily bow to an expert.  But in general, stopping blood loss from a wound is easier than dealing with a massive infection.  For the record, yes, a slash and a puncture are two different things.  I allowed the variable word because I didn't remember exactly what Lan's wound was other than shrapnel to throat.  I'd have to go watch the scene to double check.
 

10 minutes ago, Juan Farstrider said:

I'd have to rewatch the show to see when healing seems to need touching and when it doesn't to see if you are right that it doesn't need it or if it seems to sometimes need it.

 

Absolutely fair.  Easiest I can think of is Ep 4 at 7:49 when Kerene is healing Moraine, her hands are hovered above, not touching.  Kerene is a green that is not mentioned to be a strong healer to my knowledge, so that the born Yellow with a talent for it doing it isn't a stretch.
 

7 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

….How does she even know what injuries they have without even looking? Again, this is just another example of poor writing.

 

Actually, that just further cements it making sense in a way I hadn't thought of.  I was looking at the situation as Nynaeve essentially delving and then healing specific injuries.  But she doesn't, she just lets loose a giant wave of power.

Now, we know in the books that Aes Sedai healing is essentially combat healing or emergency healing from AoL and so a lot rougher and dangerous than the five flow healing Nynaeve normally does.  BUT  It just heals everything.  It doesn't pick and choose or look.  The single weave heals that sword stab, and the twisted ankle and the  rash and the...  Yeah.

So Nynaeve throwing out a massive wave of Combat Healing means it's not even about her talent so much as her raw power ability which is very high.

 

[Juan Farstrider]

1 minute ago, KakitaOCU said:

So Nynaeve throwing out a massive wave of Combat Healing means it's not even about her talent so much as her raw power ability which is very high.

 

Or, you're rationalizing bad writing. You should consider that possibility. 

[Asthereal]

12 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

He has had his character arc previously! Thats the issue! He is supposed to be a fully matured and developed character already compared to the younger characters that are supposed to be the focus of development.

So he doesn't have an arc in the story we get to experience. Which is the point, and it makes him less interesting. That's just how it works, I'm afraid. He can still be fun - superman-style characters have their appeal as well - but a character who grows a lot, overcomes flaws or limitations and generally has motion is just more interesting to follow. And Jordan knew this better than anyone, as he proved with Rand, the character that goes through the most growth I have ever seen in fiction or real life.

[Raal Gurniss]

Just now, KakitaOCU said:

First Aid and basic EMT training, nothing doctor level and would happily bow to an expert.  But in general, stopping blood loss from a wound is easier than dealing with a massive infection.  For the record, yes, a slash and a puncture are two different things.  I allowed the variable word because I didn't remember exactly what Lan's wound was other than shrapnel to throat.  I'd have to go watch the scene to double check.
 

 

Absolutely fair.  Easiest I can think of is Ep 4 at 7:49 when Kerene is healing Moraine, her hands are hovered above, not touching.  Kerene is a green that is not mentioned to be a strong healer to my knowledge, so that the born Yellow with a talent for it doing it isn't a stretch.
 

 

Actually, that just further cements it making sense in a way I hadn't thought of.  I was looking at the situation as Nynaeve essentially delving and then healing specific injuries.  But she doesn't, she just lets loose a giant wave of power.

Now, we know in the books that Aes Sedai healing is essentially combat healing or emergency healing from AoL and so a lot rougher and dangerous than the five flow healing Nynaeve normally does.  BUT  It just heals everything.  It doesn't pick and choose or look.  The single weave heals that sword stab, and the twisted ankle and the  rash and the...  Yeah.

So Nynaeve throwing out a massive wave of Combat Healing means it's not even about her talent so much as her raw power ability which is very high.

 

….And you really believe that?

[Deviations]

1 hour ago, KakitaOCU said:

Her first channeling was healing a disease that was going to break all of the person's bones and then kill them.  So yes, yes she can.  

I thought breakbone fever wasn't fatal?  There was a line about 'i didn't know it wasn't serious, or I didn't know they weren't going to die'?

[Deviations]

1 hour ago, KakitaOCU said:

Her Ep 4 act is flashy but ultimately not much different.

Hyperbole?  

[KakitaOCU]

  

7 minutes ago, Juan Farstrider said:

Or, you're rationalizing bad writing. You should consider that possibility. 

If the explanation comes me in the course of five seconds it's not me rationalizing.  I was already fine without having to work through logic loops that Nynaeve a massively powerful individual with a talent for healing could handle the act.  Raal pointing out that the weave is much less sophisticated than I was thinking makes it even easier to understand.
 

4 minutes ago, Deviations said:

I thought breakbone fever wasn't fatal?  There was a line about 'i didn't know it wasn't serious, or I didn't know they weren't going to die'?

In WoT it's very deadly.  It's a change much like Peaches being poisonous.  The real life parralel has two strains, one very deadly and the other much less so.

 

  

1 minute ago, Deviations said:

Hyperbole?  

"exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally."?  No, I literally mean that while what Nynaeve did is flashy it does not come off as harder or more difficult than handling a systemic wide infection.

Maybe it's a result of reading Modesitt but his healing magic tends to go into description of exactly what is being dealt with and it lines up with the real life medicine I know (Limited though it is).

Edited January 20, 2022 by KakitaOCU

[fra85uk]

I hope we get Nyn and Eg shooting laser beams from the eyes in S2 just to read

"look, the books do not explain the effects of conjunctivitis on channelers, it is perfectly reasoneable to assume that the virus interacting in a highly magical environment such as the body of an AS can produce coherent light emission. Just because you cannot realize that, it does not mean it is bad-writing"

Edited January 20, 2022 by fra85uk

[Deviations]

1 hour ago, KakitaOCU said:

Tam, Lan, Turoc, etc.  There's LOTS of "Just automatically a blademaster"  It means the training happened offscreen or before the start of the show.  Nynaeve was already channeling subconsciously and doing amazing healing before Ep 1 begins.

Nynaeve couldn't even heal Tam.