Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[Cauthonfan4]

13 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

. I can't think of anything clearer that he is not "dark" than running back into the battle on Winternight for his sisters'. If he was truly a selfish coward he would have hidden

I agree. He's not dark. But I think the entire mat is dark is a terrible way to to show his character and hate it. They should have left him alone.

13 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

But fair enough, personally I'd be pretty bored with Mat in the early seasons of the TV show if they followed book-Mat from EotW to TDR but to each their own

I'm pretty bored with every show character of the 5 rhat isn't nynaeve up to this point. They did a shit job with character development and that's part of why they haven't earned my trust at all. They havent used the gime well. Thst and Throwing out the magic system. 

Edited January 20, 2022 by Cauthonfan4

[Cauthonfan4]

6 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

Honestly I don't know what you want me to say. I can list out the things that I thought were done well in the show and explain why I liked them

No. Not what I'm asking.

What I'm asking is this.

Even right up to the end they were showing men as wrong, incompetent and even useless 

 

Nothing I saw in season 1 leads me to believe men are going to get better. Let's use Lan.

In episode 1 he tracks down the trolloc food and defends moiraine. Great.

As the show goes on he fails to prepare the EF5 for SL or even have a plan for it.

He gets duped and drugged by stepin. 

He needs outside help to track moiraine and does nothing un the final episode.

Perrin - needs a blind rage to kill a trolloc.

Fails to do anything when captured.

Fails to do anything about Fain.

Even the scene with LTT and latra reinforces men wrong women right. 

 

Nothing I saw showed men becoming more competent, important or useful. There was no progression from "hey these guys aren't useful or helpful" towards them becoming stronger, competent, smarter, or helpful. 

 

So please explain to me qhat you saw in season 1 that showed that men were progressing and getting better 

Edited January 20, 2022 by Cauthonfan4

[Skipp]

28 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 

Yes, mine too. Along with his delivery of "that's not how roads work" and "let's make a deal", I'm pretty sad about Harris leaving the show as I thought he was excellent. So hopefully Donal Finn does a great job. 

When Rand gets taken down by Lan, "Bless his heart, he tries".  Barney could deliver those quips.

[KakitaOCU]

10 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

I said men were shown as incompetent and reduced mfrom where they were in the books. So I didn't move the goal posts.

 

No, you said:

 

1 hour ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

Really? Show me where men got a chance to shine in season one?

 

which then several of us provided numerous examples that you didn't actually address but instead went back tot he points you felt were negative.  

 

10 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

Thst and Throwing out the magic system.

You keep saying this.  They haven't.

[notpropaganda73]

5 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

Nothing I saw showed men becoming more competent, important or useful. There was no progression from "hey these guys aren't useful or helpful" towards them becoming stronger, competent, smarter, or helpful. 

 

So please explain to me qhat you saw in season 1 that showed that men were progressing and getting better 

 

You're arguing with me about something I never said. You're obsessing over something I never said. 

 

I wanted to talk about Mat in S1. You took a quote of mine where I was talking about the show as a whole and why I think it deserves some of my trust, and have now circled back to your crusade about men in the show, asking me to justify something I didn't bring up. I'm just not interested in engaging with you on that, quite frankly.

 

 

 

 

[Cauthonfan4]

9 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

which then several of us provided numerous examples that you didn't actually address but instead went back tot he points you felt were negative

And if you go back it started with me pointing out rhat the men were shown to be reduced from the books and incompetent. 

 

So yes. Men got a few chances fo shine but nothing close to what women had, and the times I saw men shine were largely underwhelming compared to the times men were incompetent at best. 

9 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

You keep saying this.  They haven't

Really? What rules does the magic system follow? Because I haven't seen any rules. And a magic system without rules is not a wheel of time magic system. It's simply a crutch for the show to use to forward the plot 

Edited January 20, 2022 by Cauthonfan4

[Cauthonfan4]

9 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

You took a quote of mine where I was talking about the show as a whole and why I think it deserves some of my trust

What has it done to earn your trust then? Because so far I feel nothing but betrayed.

Edited January 20, 2022 by Cauthonfan4

[Asthereal]

To be fair, in the books Lan is a bit of a Mary Sue. Everybody either loves or tremendously respects him and he's great at everything. Perhaps they nerfed him a tad so he has some room to grow.

[Cauthonfan4]

3 minutes ago, Asthereal said:

To be fair, in the books Lan is a bit of a Mary Sue. Everybody either loves or tremendously respects him and he's great at everything. Perhaps they nerfed him a tad so he has some room to grow.

So instead they made nynaeve a Mary sue? Seems contradictory to me

 

Either way point is nothing I saw in season 1 shows rhe men slowly becoming more competent. So this whole argument that the men are going to get better? Based on what?

Edited January 20, 2022 by Cauthonfan4

[KakitaOCU]

11 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

And if you go back it started with me pointing out rhat the men were shown to be reduced from the books and incompetent. 

I didn't engage at that time, I responded specifically to you asking for examples of the men shining.  And now you don't want to deal with that because it doesn't fit your narrative.  Fair enough, I'll join the others on not engaging with you on it.
 

12 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

Really? What rules does the magic system follow? Because I haven't seen any rules. And a magic system without rules is not a wheel of time magic system. It's simply a crutch for the show to use to forward the plot 

Let's see.  So far if we use ONLY the show. 

We know that the One Power takes significant training to use skillfully but that raw strength is something that is genetic or inborn.

We know men who use magic go insane and are tained.

We know women cannot see men's weaves.

We know that women can link their magic together to let a single individual wield more power, but that there is a significant risk to that.

We know relative strength can be gauged based on the size of the flow moving from the world into the channeler.

We know there are devices which can amplify use of the power to greater levels.

When you add the supplemental materials it flat out explains Saidin and Saidar.

If I went and rewatched I could probably skim a few more, but those are the ones I recall from memory.

 

[KakitaOCU]

1 minute ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

So instead they made nynaeve a Mary sue? Seems contradictory to me

 

Either way point is nothing I saw in season 1 shows rhe men slowly becoming more competent. So this whole argument that the men are going to get better? Based on what?

She's shown essentially the same as in the books, except she can channel a bit better at this point, but still not reliably.

By the way, no one is saying "Don't worry, it'll get better"  We're saying it's not bad in the first place.  It's a fundamental disagreement here.  We're not out to convince you it'll get better.  We're pointing out the flaws in your claim.

[notpropaganda73]

7 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

What has it done to earn your trust then? Because so far I feel nothing but betrayed.

 

 

I loved Tam explaining the Wheel to Rand in episode 1. I think if we are lucky enough to see the show all the way to the end, this speech will be key for Rand & the Veins of Gold. That sort of scene says to me they are really taking a long view to things and gives me faith that they understand the thrust of the story, even if we don't like some (or all) of the changes so far. 

 

As I've already mentioned, what they've done with Mat's character I think is really interesting and that they were handling it really well up to Harris' departure. 

 

Episode 4 as a whole I thought was truly excellent and showed what the show could be if that level was consistent throughout. Logain was always a favourite of mine in the books so I was delighted with seeing more of him and loved Alvaro Morte's portrayal. 

 

Everything they did with Lan & Nynaeve up to the finale was excellent, especially the stuff in episode 4 I felt. I love Zoe Robins as Nynaeve. 

 

Everything to do with the Tinkers and Ila's explanation of the Way of the Leaf and her daughter. I think that explanation resonates well with Tam's speech about the Wheel. 

 

The introduction of the Whitecloaks.

 

Mat & Thom in episode 3 with the Aiel. You obviously don't like the scene as you've indicated but I thought it was really good and a great way to introduce a sort of exposition info-dump on the Aiel. 

 

Rand & Dana in episode 3. My girlfriend (non-book reader) and I didn't see it coming when watching, it was a proper "oh crap" moment.

 

Rand and the temptation of a future with Egwene in ep 8 was really the only thing I liked about the finale. 

 

The Blood Snow

 

The Weep for Manetheren scene was really well handled as it could be tricky to do on television. I especially loved that Perrin, Egwene and Mat all sang but Rand did not. Little things like that say to me that they know what they want to show and as I said, a lot of it then comes down to execution. 

 

The dreams were good in the early episodes and I just wish we had had a lot more of them. 

 

Everything with Siuan in episode 6 was fantastic imo

 

Outside of scenes and events in the show, I loved the music and the costumes. That's subjective as I know plenty of people have complained about the costumes but I really thought they were excellent. 

 

So there is enough good there, for me, to have some trust in them. You can quote this line by line and dissect why you think it was all bad if you want, I'm really not interested in justifying why I enjoyed these aspects to you. But you asked me to explain what I liked, so there is some of it. 

[Deviations]

7 hours ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

Is the show completely terrible? No. The acting was solid and episode 4 was pretty good. But when the expectation (set by Amazon) was the next game of thrones, they have so far missed the mark by a wide margin.

The more I think about it, the more I do actually think it's terrible.  I like Nyneave's acting and maybe Thom's and Tam's.  I don't like really any of the acting for the other main characters.  I think Pike is getting a huge pass based on her work in gone girl and pride & pred. 

 

I'd rather watch the next season of Outlander, the Last Kingdom, Yellowstone, 1883, what ever they are doing with the prequel to GoT, etc., etc., etc. 

 

 

Who is this version of WOT even about?  Moraine?  Only her and Nynaeve's story are interesting at this point.  Even though it is Rand centric, by the end of EoTW, I was interested in all five plus Lan.

 

Yes I'm a book cloak.  But I've been pretty happy with other adaptations that weren't in lockstep with the source material.  This isn't just about the fact that they've re-written the source material.  It's that they did it so badly.

[Cauthonfan4]

5 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

She's shown essentially the same as in the books, except she can channel a bit better at this point, but still not reliably

Shes not shown being able to assassinate stuff.

Shes not shown being able to mass heal near death.

Shes not shown being able to control weaves in someone else's circle. 

 

But again. Why nerf one Mary Sue but not fhe other?

7 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

By the way, no one is saying "Don't worry, it'll get better"  We're saying it's not bad in the first place.

Just because you don't think it's bad doesn't mean others don't.

 

Clearly many feel men got screwed. Just because you can point out some good moments doesn't overrule all the moments where they were shown useless or incompetent. 

And yes. Some of you have said in fact Said men will get better treatment later.

 

[Deviations]

8 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

She's shown essentially the same as in the books, except she can channel a bit better at this point, but still not reliably.

A bit better?  She doesn't even know she can channel at all it this point!  Nynaeve is one of my favorite characters in the books.   In the show, she hasn't had to earn this level of capability.

 

I don't remember which forum about WoT books had rules for fan fic but they stated that you couldn't just automatically be a blademaster.  You had to show the progression of training, practice, experience, etc.

 

That was the people in this forum (or another just like it) that made those rules to prevent Mary Sues.

 

[Raal Gurniss]

1 hour ago, KakitaOCU said:

Not sure why you keep tying that to the debate I'm having when it's not a point I was pushing.

Let me be clear since apparently that is necessary.

I don't like or find value in Egwene's "healing" scene.  I am allowing that maybe we're missing something that will be explained later, but right now I don't like it or see it as a good scene or choice.

As for both mastering it, Nynaeve is a healing savant and healed Egwene of a disease that is lethal as her first touch of the power.  She's always like that in the book when she can reach the source.

……Come on…It’s just poorly written, no more no less!

[Raal Gurniss]

4 minutes ago, Deviations said:

A bit better?  She doesn't even know she can channel at all it this point!  Nynaeve is one of my favorite characters in the books.   In the show, she hasn't had to earn this level of capability.

 

I don't remember which forum about WoT books had rules for fan fic but they stated that you couldn't just automatically be a blademaster.  You had to show the progression of training, practice, experience, etc.

 

That was the people in this forum (or another just like it) that made those rules to prevent Mary Sues.

 

Ever get the feeling that no matter how much you explain things, no matter how you reason it out or the evidence you can provide, certain people are just not going to be swayed even if they can’t even fictionalise otherwise.

[VooDooNut]

Just now, Raal Gurniss said:

Ever get the feeling that no matter how much you explain things, no matter how you reason it out or the evidence you can provide, certain people are just not going to be swayed even if they can’t even fictionalise otherwise.

All the time.

[Raal Gurniss]

1 hour ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

Considering Amazon was calling this their game of thrones the product is subpar.

The world building is subpar.

The character development is behind book 1 (which is sad because book 1 didn't even develop them much).

The magic system had rules and limits in the books which the TV show lacks and is inferior about explaining anything. 

At rhe time of purchase I was promised wheel of time with game of thrones scale.

It wasn't until I actually started using said product that it became clear that I didn't get what was advertised. 

 

In fairness you were never promised Wheel of Time content, just the WoT name.

[Cauthonfan4]

18 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

But you asked me to explain what I liked, so there is some of it.

I can respect your opinion I just felt they did a lot to lose trust across the board with the lack of development of both the world and the characters, among other things.

 

So yes. They did a lot of little things right. They screwed up a lot of major things. And episode 8 as a whole was...yeah...

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by Cauthonfan4

[KakitaOCU]

9 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

Shes not shown being able to assassinate stuff.

Shes not shown being able to mass heal near death.

Shes not shown being able to control weaves in someone else's circle.

She can sneak up on a woman who can sense her presence, that she didn't physically knife someone doesn't mean she wasn't capable.

Her first channeling was healing a disease that was going to break all of the person's bones and then kill them.  So yes, yes she can.  

She doesn't control weaves, we don't know what happened there and the fact that linking clearly has different rules means we need to wait to see what those changes are.  It could be a horrible misstep, but we don't know enough yet.
 

11 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

Just because you don't think it's bad doesn't mean others don't.

 

Clearly many feel men got screwed. Just because you can point out some good moments doesn't overrule all the moments where they were shown useless or incompetent. 

 

And just because you think it's bad doesn't mean others do, what's your point?

Yes, clearly a lot of people feel "men got screwed"  a lot of people are also confused when told that Jordan deliberately flipped gender dynamics and dominance, a lot of people are upset about a lot of things they're wrong about.  My real question here is, why ask for moments of men being competent and strong if you don't care about those moments because all you want to argue is your own narrative?  Just shows you came to this in bad faith.
 

12 minutes ago, Deviations said:

A bit better?  She doesn't even know she can channel at all it this point!  Nynaeve is one of my favorite characters in the books.   In the show, she hasn't had to earn this level of capability.

 

She off screen healed breakbone fever and is suggested to have healed other things as well.  Her Ep 4 act is flashy but ultimately not much different.
 

13 minutes ago, Deviations said:

I don't remember which forum about WoT books had rules for fan fic but they stated that you couldn't just automatically be a blademaster.  You had to show the progression of training, practice, experience, etc.

Tam, Lan, Turoc, etc.  There's LOTS of "Just automatically a blademaster"  It means the training happened offscreen or before the start of the show.  Nynaeve was already channeling subconsciously and doing amazing healing before Ep 1 begins.

 

 

 

[Raal Gurniss]

30 minutes ago, Asthereal said:

To be fair, in the books Lan is a bit of a Mary Sue. Everybody either loves or tremendously respects him and he's great at everything. Perhaps they nerfed him a tad so he has some room to grow.

Grow into what? The character is utterly stifled! Might as well have made him Homer Simpson…..Certainly not even a Ned Flanders at this point.

[Raal Gurniss]

Just now, KakitaOCU said:

She can sneak up on a woman who can sense her presence, that she didn't physically knife someone doesn't mean she wasn't capable.

Her first channeling was healing a disease that was going to break all of the person's bones and then kill them.  So yes, yes she can.  

She doesn't control weaves, we don't know what happened there and the fact that linking clearly has different rules means we need to wait to see what those changes are.  It could be a horrible misstep, but we don't know enough yet.
 

 

And just because you think it's bad doesn't mean others do, what's your point?

Yes, clearly a lot of people feel "men got screwed"  a lot of people are also confused when told that Jordan deliberately flipped gender dynamics and dominance, a lot of people are upset about a lot of things they're wrong about.  My real question here is, why ask for moments of men being competent and strong if you don't care about those moments because all you want to argue is your own narrative?  Just shows you came to this in bad faith.
 

 

She off screen healed breakbone fever and is suggested to have healed other things as well.  Her Ep 4 act is flashy but ultimately not much different.
 

Tam, Lan, Turoc, etc.  There's LOTS of "Just automatically a blademaster"  It means the training happened offscreen or before the start of the show.  Nynaeve was already channeling subconsciously and doing amazing healing before Ep 1 begins.

 

 

 

…..Listening to the wind was pretty much the only thing she did, most everything else from the book was glossed over! And as we have seen whats in the book is likely not in the show.

[Cauthonfan4]

8 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Her first channeling was healing a disease that was going to break all of the person's bones and then kill them.  So yes, yes she can

MASS AOE HEAL

8 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

just because you think it's bad doesn't mean others do, what's your point?

Except we see clearly many think like I do, pretty much everywhere. Even full hard-core feminists think men got shafted. 

8 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

My real question here is, why ask for moments of men being competent and strong if you don't care about those moments because all you want to argue is your own narrative?  Just shows you came to this in bad faith

I care about them. But men got vastly overshadowed by women in the show and if wasn't even close.  Not to mention all the vast men incompetent moments. For a series that's about balance that's a huge failing. 

Edited January 20, 2022 by Cauthonfan4

[Juan Farstrider]

12 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

  

I wasn't putting it out as a perfectly reasonable power comparison.

The argument made was that it was completely over the top to have five linked women which included Nynaeve and Egwene devastate at max 10k trollocs.  When I pointed out that it was just raw lightning someone else insisted it was wrong because it approached Rand.  I pointed out that Rand shows an astronomically higher level of control and power despite also killing only 10k trollocs in a given scene.

 

 

No, I genuinely thought flat out saying One person's show of power was far more complicated and difficult to do than another's flat out said I thought one person was stronger.  I flat out said what Rand did was harder to do than what Amalisa with her circle did.  There was no ambiguity.  It wasn't until you said I was being vague that it even occurred to me to think someone read "What Rand did is more complex and harder than what Amalisa did" as something other than "Rand is stronger."

 

  

Who said it missed no trollocs?  It broke their line, tons could have retreated.   All we know is it killed a ton and stopped the attack.

Who said it hit no bystanders, I wouldn't be surprised if it killed anyone who was still alive in the gap.  Avoiding the city is broad control of aiming it forward, not the same as actually directing it at targets.  The were out in front of the city and then built the storm in front of them.
 

my argument is that Rand is showing ridiculous levels of control and power at those points.

If she knew Nynaeve's strength ....  But Nynaeve was MIA ...

You make many fair points which I concede. (mostly the ones I edited down and added ellipses to. 

I don't recall saying you were vague. Maybe I implied it. I find the whole rationalization and interpreting what we saw on the screen to be "a bit of a sticky wicket" I think is how the saying goes. I also don't know what I'm raising points about amounts of power being consumed/expended/released, though if that is the context you are addressing then I'm making this an apples and oranges thing. I'm not willing to concede the idea that Moraine could not have used Egwene and Nynaeve to put a big hurt on the second wave attacking Emond's Field especially if you are conceding that trollocs might retreat when whooped. We just don't know she could not, and too often in these kinds of shows the power used at the end was available earlier-- the youtube channel Screen Rant points this out in nearly every one of their "X Number" of Things Wrong With "Y" Movie videos. I'm going to assume the latter, and not grant licence to the show creators that they have a firm reason for why it was doable when not doable previously.  I do not owe any story-telling team that, it is their job.

It could be a problem with editing and run time, and not a problem of being poorly thought out or explained. But, it is a problem. A minor problem, but they add up. 

In granting the story telling team the benefits of the doubt, you state things as if they are fact when they are suppositions you are making to interpret their presentation in  a most coherent way. But other possibilities, both considered here and not, exist. The flaws are not with the facts within that world necessarily, but with the telling of the story. Rather than get caught in the sticky wicket of all this, they rushed the ending. I was shocked to see I was watching the season finale when I hit play to watch it. My shock was justified. In order to cross the finish line of season one that the story telling team created for themselves, they rushed the ending and these questions are minor examples of the problems that caused.

You like the show and it makes sense to you. Great! There can be no taking away from that. Others see issues with it, and no amount of rationalizing can undo that. Its not like the books where someone has a question about how something happened or why something didn't happen (I had some misconceptions about a few things in the books that I brought up here, long ago) and people who have read them many times now can show in the book where the misconception can be cleared up-- or where things are somewhat open ended. It's that level of detailed analysis that make the books far greater than they would at first appear. He "used the whole buffalo" as they say.