Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[Cauthonfan4]

2 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Thom killing the darkfriend

She never saw him. A simple thrown knife. Not nearly as badass as what nynaeve did to the trolloc. 

3 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Lan scouting back and forth and coming back with more wounds

And failing to track his own AS is competent? His lack of any plan in SL is a bastion of competence?

4 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Mat spotting the Fade and creeping everyone out at the same time

Meanwhile utterly ruining him by making him a thief. Ofcourse rafe didn't have a clue, he thought mat struggled the most with his "darkside" when we literally have perrin with his strength ptsd since the beginning.

5 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Rand Resisting the DO and blasting him away

Oh my one thing a male actually did. Meanwhile they stripped away his character development. 

6 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Logain's cold open and shattering the axes

Doesn't hold a candle to what the women did does it?

7 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Perrin rage killing a Trolloc(freaking savage

Meanwhile his wife kills a trolloc without needing blind rage...

6 minutes ago, EmreY said:

Rand defeats the most powerful Forsaken at the end of Book 1.  Though you're right, that's not power creep, that's power dash

With the aid of the eye. Not like he did it himself.

[KakitaOCU]

11 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

But….Healing is supposed to be one of the more complex weavings yet both seem to have intuitively mastered the most complex weaves instantly….So how does that match?

Not sure why you keep tying that to the debate I'm having when it's not a point I was pushing.

Let me be clear since apparently that is necessary.

I don't like or find value in Egwene's "healing" scene.  I am allowing that maybe we're missing something that will be explained later, but right now I don't like it or see it as a good scene or choice.

As for both mastering it, Nynaeve is a healing savant and healed Egwene of a disease that is lethal as her first touch of the power.  She's always like that in the book when she can reach the source.

[Gothic Flame]

Just now, EmreY said:

 

We did read the same books, I assume.  Where an Accepted vaulted across every Aes Sedai to become Amyrlin?  That action is fine (within its context) but the presumed lack of an Accepted rank in the TV series (in its context) is not?

 

 

A tv show that hasn't built up the circumstances to justify anything. 

No reasoning or logic...just a simple- minded demand; "Wait and find out."

[Yojimbo]

11 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

Really? Show me where men got a chance to shine in season one?

Lan can't track his own AS. And gave zero advice and had ho plan going into SL.

Tam can't kill a trolloc but Laila can kill at least one.

The boys never got any training and perrin did almost nothing all season. Mat has been reduced to a thief even steals from thr dead.

LTT is shown to be completely wrong and Latra was evelevated to his place in the flashback  

And the list goes on.

 

Lan literally couldn't even track moiraine, he had zero plan in going into SL and failed utterly to take care of the EF5 or give them any advice while there.

 

So yeah, there wasn't one male character that wasn't bloody nerfed at best and incompetent at best in season 1.

Meanwhile women were shown again and again to be powerful, competent and right. 

I am re-reading TDR right now, and Lan's ability to track is highlighted extensively.  When they are in the camp early on Lan offers to go around the perimeter to check and see if the dozens of highly trained Shienarans missed anything, and it was stated not as boasting that he would find anything they missed, but just as a statement of fact.  Even Uno just nods his head acknowledging this.   When Rand runs it is Lan who tracks him, and leaves signs for others to follow because whatever Lan is finding to track is so small that nobody else can even find the sings Rand is leaving.  

 

And yet he needs Nynaeve to tell him how to track a woman he has been traveling with for almost 20 years.   Uh-huh.  Right.  

[EmreY]

Just now, Cauthonfan4 said:

With the aid of the eye. Not like he did it himself.

 

Ishy should have gone for the pool too, as Aginor did.  Any way you dice it, one Forsaken gets taken out by a construct, another bursts into flames, and the third, most powerful one gets injured, while a simple farmboy who can channel only sporadically defeats two Forsaken, teleports, defeats an army, teleports back, etc.

 

The only importance of the pool is that it is untainted.

 

[Cauthonfan4]

2 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Examples of Strength:
Lan in Ep 1 defending Moraine and wiping out trollocs.

Meanwhile he can't track his own AS. Nor does he have a plan for SL. Nor does he advise them about the perils of SL. So congrats. He's a good bodyguard but bad elsewhere. That's a reduction of Lan from the books.

4 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Rand staying cool under pressure and shooting the Trolloc in the eye followed by stabbing it.

And still hasn't gotten any weapons training with Lan, and of course had his thunder literally stolen. Yet another male character who was reduced from the books.

5 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Mat sacrificing his own safety to rush out and save his sisters. (Something we don't see in the books

Yep. And turned into someone who steals from his neighbors and the dead. Totally a change for the positive there.

6 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Perrin standing and fighting and protecting people (Something he didn't do in the books

And losing his head and killing his wife, who didn't have to lose her head to win. Also who stood by and did nothing while egwene freed him drop valda. At least egwene spanked him. Props to her.

7 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Lan constantly leaving the group to go back and make sure Trollocs aren't getting close, coming back with only minor wounds despite being alone.
Rand staying calm in Shadar Logoth and fighting to save Mat.

Lan doing literally nothing in episode 8 but trying to chase moiraine. Great had of him.

 

8 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Mat showing his charm and grace even in a bad situation in the town with Dana

Mat stealing from the dead sure was graceful.

8 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Thom effortlessly dispatching a Darkfriend and protecting the boys

Thom throwing a knife at the exposed back of an enemy. Oh and he also stole Mats money. Totally a good showing of what Thom was like in the books.

9 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

could go for a while

I  think I proved ny point. The men didn't hold a candle to the women. Whereas in the book both got time to shine.

So unless you can guarantee that the show is going to balance out the huge advantage the women have in badassery over men so far, I'd say my complaints are valid.

And seeing as you haven't seen the scripts and nothing in season 1 shows us that men are going to be made more competent you can't promise anything.

 

[notpropaganda73]

Something I want to say about Mat's backstory change. Can we acknowledge why they made this change for him in terms of the journey he will go on (if the show gets all 8 seasons)? Whether it works or not is to be seen in the long term, but I think it was working really well up to episode 6. The "darkness within him" will be part of Mat's own struggle as well, as he worries about being no good himself, that he's no hero, "The world doesn't need a Dragon like me", etc. And Rands vehement defence of him in episode 7 is more in keeping with who Mat truly is, so I think they know exactly what they are doing with his arc there. I think it has great potential. If he was just an asshole thief, there'd be no redeeming qualities about him at all and he'd be set up to be more antagonistic.

 

 

 

[Cauthonfan4]

7 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

re-reading TDR right now, and Lan's ability to track is highlighted extensively

?. Exactly my point. In the books Lan was more then just a bodyguard. Which seems to be about the extent of his strength in the show right now 

[Skipp]

2 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

"The world doesn't need a Dragon like me",

One of my favourite lines in the season.

[Cauthonfan4]

6 minutes ago, EmreY said:

The only importance of the pool is that it is untainted

Uh no. It had a huge reserve of power which enabled the untrained Rand to pull off the stuff he did. It's pure Mcguffin through and through. And while I wasn't a fan of it, it at least gave us a reason to understand him pulling off what he did. The show though? Well rhey just power creeped the hell out of it 

[Cauthonfan4]

4 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

"The world doesn't need a Dragon like me", etc. And Rands vehement defence of him in episode 7 is more in keeping with who Mat truly is

I agree here this was in keeping with mat but all the other changes make him fundamentally worse then his book self.

[EmreY]

3 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

So unless you can guarantee that the show is going to balance out the huge advantage the women have in badassery over men so far, I'd say my complaints are valid.

 

I'm not sure whether a guarantee can be asked for, given that you've paid for nothing to @KakitaOCU and are therefore not covered by any fair trading laws.  Indeed, you've said he was wrong time and time again, which is akin to saying the product being sold is subpar over and over again.  And if you buy a faulty product which (at the time of purchase) you have said is faulty, then you probably won't be recompensed, not should you. 

 

2 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

Uh no. It had a huge reserve of power which enabled the untrained Rand to pull off the stuff he did. It's pure Mcguffin through and through. And while I wasn't a fan of it, it at least gave us a reason to understand him pulling off what he did. The show though? Well rhey just power creeped the hell out of it

 

If it were just that, the much weaker but just slightly more experienced Aginor wouldn't have burnt up.

[notpropaganda73]

Just now, Cauthonfan4 said:

I agree here this was in keeping with mat but all the other changes make him fundamentally worse then his book self.

 

but couldn't you see that if they are putting in this description of Mat from Rand, and he so vehemently argues with Egwene about it, that maybe, just maybe, they know what they are doing by showing others viewing him as having an "inherent darkness", even himself?

 

I mean one of the complaints about Nynaeve and Egwene is they are already their later-stage book selves in S1 without starting out somewhere and growing, but do you want Mat to be the jolly trickster laughing and joking and winking at everyone straight away? I think starting him off at a low ebb and him battling within himself, or seeing himself how Rand (and I'm assuming Perrin) see him, will be a much more satisfying journey. 

[notpropaganda73]

6 minutes ago, Skipp said:

One of my favourite lines in the season.

 

Yes, mine too. Along with his delivery of "that's not how roads work" and "let's make a deal", I'm pretty sad about Harris leaving the show as I thought he was excellent. So hopefully Donal Finn does a great job. 

[Cauthonfan4]

1 minute ago, EmreY said:

hich is akin to saying the product being sold is subpar over and over again.

Considering Amazon was calling this their game of thrones the product is subpar.

The world building is subpar.

The character development is behind book 1 (which is sad because book 1 didn't even develop them much).

The magic system had rules and limits in the books which the TV show lacks and is inferior about explaining anything. 

3 minutes ago, EmreY said:

And if you buy a faulty product which (at the time of purchase) you have said is faulty, then you probably won't be recompensed, not should you

At rhe time of purchase I was promised wheel of time with game of thrones scale.

It wasn't until I actually started using said product that it became clear that I didn't get what was advertised. 

 

[Gothic Flame]

1 minute ago, notpropaganda73 said:

but couldn't you see that if they are putting in this description of Mat from Rand, and he so vehemently argues with Egwene about it, that maybe, just maybe, they know what they are doing by showing others viewing him as having an "inherent darkness", even himself?

 

This conversation wouldn't be happening if they'd proven that they know what they're doing.

[Cauthonfan4]

8 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

but couldn't you see that if they are putting in this description of Mat from Rand, and he so vehemently argues with Egwene about it, that maybe, just maybe, they know what they are doing by showing others viewing him as having an "inherent darkness", even himself?

No. Because its more about knowing yourself.

For example. I know I'm not a leader type person. I'm a hard worker but I absolutely am not a good leader. If you told me I was to be the Dragon I'd laugh it off too. Mat is a good leader but it's otger parts of his nature in the books that would make it obvious he'd be a bad dragon. The show has fundamentally turned our lovable goofball into something that isn't mat.

 

Nothing i have seen shows the crew running this knows what they are doing at all. 

They have disregarded the rules of the magic in wot.

They have disrespected the AS politival prowess 

they have disrespected many male characters in competency 

They have thrown out the world building in favor of just making everyone generic  

8 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

but do you want Mat to be the jolly trickster laughing and joking and winking at everyone straight away? I think starting him off at a low ebb and him battling within himself, or seeing himself how Rand (and I'm assuming Perrin) see him, will be a much more satisfying journey.

I'd rather have our mat. Who was the trickster who evolved into a great leader of men then some dark thief who steals from the dead 

Edited January 20, 2022 by Cauthonfan4

[EmreY]

6 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

Considering Amazon was calling this their game of thrones the product is subpar.

The world building is subpar.

The character development is behind book 1 (which is sad because book 1 didn't even develop them much).

The magic system had rules and limits in the books which the TV show lacks and is inferior about explaining anything. 

At rhe time of purchase I was promised wheel of time with game of thrones scale.

It wasn't until I actually started using said product that it became clear that I didn't get what was advertised. 

 

 

And yet, still not enough reason to demand guarantees from third parties, I'd say.

 

But, whatever.  We shall never see eye to eye.

 

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by EmreY

[KakitaOCU]

2 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

(Lots of repeats of previously made complaints)

You said the men didn't get good moments.  I gave examples, you're not even rebutting those examples, just jumping to other things to try and make it a sum negative.  Quit moving the goalposts.
 

 

 

[notpropaganda73]

1 minute ago, Gothic Flame said:

This conversation wouldn't be happening if they'd proven that they know what they're doing.

 

I know that this is simply where we disagree, but to me they have shown an attention to detail and shown me enough that they do know what they're doing. We may not like the choices being made in certain instances, or in all instances for some, but I can definitely see a through-line in terms of the choices made. So it becomes about execution for me, and that is where S1 is extremely uneven.

 

Mat is the clearest one to me in terms of why they have done what they've done and as I said I think it was being handled really well up to Harris' departure. Lan and Nynaeve was also being excellently handled to me until episode 8. So there is enough examples (to me) that they know what they're doing to give a little trust. But as I said, I know we differ there. 

[EmreY]

3 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

So it becomes about execution for me, and that is where S1 is extremely uneven.

 

Yes, me too.

[Cauthonfan4]

3 minutes ago, EmreY said:

still not enough reason to demand guarantees from anyone

Then if you can't guarantee that the men will get tgwir payoff stop using it as an answer to why men have been held back.

 

You'd be better off agreeing that men got held back, but hope that they will get a better shake in later seasons to equalize the nature of balance in the show. But I'm not seeing that at all.

 

What I see is defenders making unsubstantiated claims backed up with zero evidence and acting as if they are right.

6 minutes ago, EmreY said:

Look, if my boss talked to me this way I'd tell him to take a hike, and he actually pays me

Show defenders have been acting as if they have all the answers about what will happen to deflect criticism and wonder why were push8ng back.

 

Commonly I see defenders saying "well season 1 showed women front and center but obviously that will change later". Based on what? There is zero proof to this claim.

If we had seen men slowly getting more competent and getting training as the show goes on I'd agree with you. Instead even in episode 7 and 8 we still see men taking a firm back seat and being useless.

[notpropaganda73]

3 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

No. Because its more about knowing yourself.

For example. I know I'm not a leader type person. I'm a hard worker but I absolutely am not a good leader. If you told me I was to be the Dragon I'd laugh it off too. Mat is a good leader but it's otger parts of his nature in the books that would make it obvious he'd be a bad dragon. The show has fundamentally turned our lovable goofball into something that isn't mat.

 

The show is also about knowing yourself, and Mat still has to go on that journey. I can't think of anything clearer that he is not "dark" than running back into the battle on Winternight for his sisters'. If he was truly a selfish coward he would have hidden. But he ran out to find them. He cares. That's his true nature, but maybe he doesn't believe it himself yet. I think that's going to be interesting to watch. 

 

3 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

I'd rather have our mat. Who was the trickster who evolved into a great leader of men then some dark thief who steals from the dead 

 

I mean I repeat, I don't think the show is actually turning Mat into this dark thief. He steals out of desperation. Thom even says to him he understands. I didn't think in the scene that Mat was some disgusting thief, it seemed more sad to me. Considering he was talking about getting home to the Two Rivers, to his sisters, in that very episode. 

 

But fair enough, personally I'd be pretty bored with Mat in the early seasons of the TV show if they followed book-Mat from EotW to TDR but to each their own. 

[Cauthonfan4]

7 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Quit moving the goalposts

I said men were shown as incompetent and reduced mfrom where they were in the books. So I didn't move the goal posts.

 

9 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

So it becomes about execution for me, and that is where S1 is extremely uneven

And what has shown that they will balance that unevenness? Because Lan got less useful as season 1 went on. He was at his absolute best in episode 1. Defending moiraine.

Even in episodes 7 and 8 we still see lots of men being "wrong, incompetent, and useless".

[notpropaganda73]

1 minute ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

And what has shown that they will balance that unevenness? Because Lan got less useful as season 1 went on. He was at his absolute best in episode 1. Defending moiraine.

Even in episodes 7 and 8 we still see lots of men being "wrong, incompetent, and useless".

 

Honestly I don't know what you want me to say. I can list out the things that I thought were done well in the show and explain why I liked them, but I feel as though you'd just respond with a list of things that you hated or another list of men being useless in your mind, or even just respond to my list with "actually, that was bad". So what's the point?