Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[KakitaOCU]

7 minutes ago, Katherine said:

HOw does seeing dirt fly around translate to you saying "brighter than the sun".  When on screen we see (if I remember correctly) a light bubble around her. 

 

Because Moraine used the comparison just a short time earlier and then he witnessed a feat that he knows he couldn't come close to pulling off?  Kind of like how you might say someone who pulls of a particularly impressive feat is "On fire" without them actually being covered in flames?  

 

8 minutes ago, Katherine said:

We really can't agree that her suddenly... .with no prior interaction... announcing that they might be the DR and have to come with her, and them just agreeing isn't realistic?

In a peaceful and calm situation?  absolutely agree.  In a situation where monsters out of nightmare are charging down a hill at me?  You better believe I'm going to throw in with the only person that was actually pushing them back.  When if she's right I'm saving myself AND my village and if she's wrong?  Well if she's wrong and nice I can double back to help my people.  If she's wrong and evil, I don't have the ability to fight her regardless.   

 

[Katherine]

1 minute ago, KakitaOCU said:

 

Because Moraine used the comparison just a short time earlier and then he witnessed a feat that he knows he couldn't come close to pulling off?  Kind of like how you might say someone who pulls of a particularly impressive feat is "On fire" without them actually being covered in flames? 

 

I see where you are coming from.... I really do. 

 

But

Let's say the person pulled off an incredible feat using invisible fire. And (per your example)  I said that impressive feat was "on fire".

 

Everyone around me would  reasonably assume I could see the fire. 

[Katherine]

4 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

In a peaceful and calm situation?  absolutely agree.  In a situation where monsters out of nightmare are charging down a hill at me?  You better believe I'm going to throw in with the only person that was actually pushing them back.  When if she's right I'm saving myself AND my village and if she's wrong?  Well if she's wrong and nice I can double back to help my people.  If she's wrong and evil, I don't have the ability to fight her regardless. 

 

Fair Enough. ? 

[KakitaOCU]

5 minutes ago, Katherine said:

 

I see where you are coming from.... I really do. 

 

But

Let's say the person pulled off an incredible feat using invisible fire. And (per your example)  I said that impressive feat was "on fire".

 

Everyone around me would  reasonably assume I could see the fire. 

It's a fair assessment to make for someone who doesn't know the context.  Would even be amused to see some of the sisters freaking out "How did he see her weaves?!?!"  But we as viewers have the outside context of knowing what Moraine said.

[Spiritweaver1]

I am not sure how we can call what happened in the healing event a plot hole.  To me it is just foolishness which adds to the unbelievability of the particular episode.  I admit that the rules governing the one power in Rafeland are completely murky.  Thats why I just fall back on my terminology in a different thread.  The healing scene is not a plot hole it is plot foolishness.   Nyn is powerful in the books but unskilled.  Since there is no evidence of training in Rafeland she is equally unskilled there.  She heals mortal wounds on several folks and counters Logain.  Even if we grant she has some natural intuirtive healing ability  where did she learn to cut Logain's flows?  It is this comic book approach that puts this in the plot foolishness bucket.  I am sorry I want my fantasy to be as realistic as possible given the rules of the world.  

 

Now before we start on Rand (in the books) pulling all sorts of tricks out of his you know what, I always was able to rationalize (after completing the series) that he had past lives memories which, in the beginning, he was able to access under stress.  As the taint worked on him it became a problem condition of course.  Nyn has no such back story so lets not go there. 

 

As a comparison I was equally dismayed by Legolas's antics in the battle of Minas Tirith.  More or less defying the laws of physics.  

 

These aren't deal breakers but they detract from my experience with any show or book.  There is quite a bit of plot foolishness in RJ's later books.   I am nearly done with CoT and much of that is descriptions of various characters apparel.  Hopefully Rafe can condense WH and CoT into a couple of episodes.   That would be a big improvement over the books. 

 

 

[Mirefox]

More thoughts as I continue watching bits and pieces of this:

 

- We are supposed to accept that Nyn is more powerful than any Aes Sedai but because she isn’t trained she can’t use her powers yet unless under extreme duress or emotion?  Fine.  So why when her small village is being slaughtered by an army of unknown monsters could she do nothing?  Not emotional enough?

 

- We have all discusses the weaving choreography and I’ve never minded how it was portrayed.  One neat little thing I just noticed I’m Episode 1 was when Moiraine was fighting off the trollocs and she actually stared one down and gave a little nod, seeming directing a weave with her head.  Cool little touch.

[Mirefox]

14 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

I am not sure how we can call what happened in the healing event a plot hole.  To me it is just foolishness which adds to the unbelievability of the particular episode.  I admit that the rules governing the one power in Rafeland are completely murky.  Thats why I just fall back on my terminology in a different thread.  The healing scene is not a plot hole it is plot foolishness.   Nyn is powerful in the books but unskilled.  Since there is no evidence of training in Rafeland she is equally unskilled there.  She heals mortal wounds on several folks and counters Logain.  Even if we grant she has some natural intuirtive healing ability  where did she learn to cut Logain's flows?  It is this comic book approach that puts this in the plot foolishness bucket.  I am sorry I want my fantasy to be as realistic as possible given the rules of the world.  

 

Now before we start on Rand (in the books) pulling all sorts of tricks out of his you know what, I always was able to rationalize (after completing the series) that he had past lives memories which, in the beginning, he was able to access under stress.  As the taint worked on him it became a problem condition of course.  Nyn has no such back story so lets not go there. 

 

As a comparison I was equally dismayed by Legolas's antics in the battle of Minas Tirith.  More or less defying the laws of physics.  

 

These aren't deal breakers but they detract from my experience with any show or book.  There is quite a bit of plot foolishness in RJ's later books.   I am nearly done with CoT and much of that is descriptions of various characters apparel.  Hopefully Rafe can condense WH and CoT into a couple of episodes.   That would be a big improvement over the books. 

 

 

I call it internal consistency/logic.  In completely unrealistic series such as this I don’t mind of the rules of my world are broken just as long as the rules of the fictional world are consistent throughout the story.  I think the show has been grossly inconsistent with its rules and logic and it is much to the show’s detriment.  Nyn has become one giant deus ex machina.

 

Nyn ex Machina (c) 2022 by Mirefox

Edited January 19, 2022 by Mirefox

[Cauthonfan4]

14 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

I think the show has been grossly inconsistent with its rules and logic and it is much to the show’s detriment

This is pure fact. Mouraine had to tear down an entire inn to finish off a couple dozen trollocs. Episode 8 5 untrained Wilders link and wipe out thousands.

[KakitaOCU]

35 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

Even if we grant she has some natural intuirtive healing ability  where did she learn to cut Logain's flows?  It is this comic book approach that puts this in the plot foolishness bucket.  I am sorry I want my fantasy to be as realistic as possible given the rules of the world.  

This happens in the books with Nynaeve too.  How about when she arbitrarily self learned Balefire for no reason in Book 3?
 

6 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

This is pure fact. Mouraine had to tear down an entire inn to finish off a couple dozen trollocs. Episode 8 5 untrained Wilders link and wipe out thousands.

 

Moraine MIGHT have been equal to the NPC and the 2 no names, But she's nothing to Nynaeve and Egwene.  And this wasn't untrained, this was someone trained but weak wielding Nynaeve and Egwene's strength.

[Cauthonfan4]

17 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Moraine MIGHT have been equal to the NPC and the 2 no names, But she's nothing to Nynaeve and Egwene.  And this wasn't untrained, this was someone trained but weak wielding Nynaeve and Egwene's strength

Doesn't matter. You're talking about struggling vs a couple dozen trollocs and wiping out 5 to 20k without them touching you dude. Stop making excuses and attempting to deflect. Even other die hard supporters realize the power creep there is a huge issue.

 

Also the npc you are referring too was too weak for formal tower training and was turned away. Moiraine is EASILY stronger then her. So you're deflection is Terrible and full of issues.

Edited January 19, 2022 by Cauthonfan4

[KakitaOCU]

8 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

Doesn't matter. You're talking about struggling vs a couple dozen trollocs and wiping out 5 to 20k without them touching you dude. Stop making excuses and attempting to deflect. Even other die hard supporters realize the power creep there is a huge issue.

 

How does it not matter?  Moraine was struggling in the middle of a swarm, trying not to hurt other people mixed in the melee and targeting single trollocs for the most part.  The group of five were facing a swarm all nicely bunched together with no concern for fallout or collateral.

Stop assuming everything is an excuse and actually deal with the arguments.  You'll fare better.

 

9 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

Also the npc you are referring too was too weak for formal tower training and was turned away. Moiraine is EASILY stronger then her. So you're deflection is Terrible and full of issues.

 

I'm unsure of your argument here.  I suggested Amalisa was trained in terms of knowing how to weave and was essentially using Nynaeve and Egwene's power.  Her being personally weak isn't really relevant to the point being made.

 

[Cauthonfan4]

1 minute ago, KakitaOCU said:

Her being personally weak isn't really relevant to the point being made

You literally said...

 

21 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Moraine MIGHT have been equal to the NPC and the 2 no names

Which is about as far from truth as you can get. So yes. It's an entirely relevant point. 

Then again I'm talking to someone who I've literally seen defend just about everything on this show so why am I not surprised 

Edited January 19, 2022 by Cauthonfan4

[KakitaOCU]

Not relevant, because it's not the argument I made.

I said Moraine Might have been equal to 3 people who were weak.  That's not saying Moraine is weak or that Amalisa somehow wasn't weak.

I was saying we're talking about significant power gaps between Moraine vs Nynaeve+Egwene.   Something you keep avoiding discussing because it would mean engaging with the point instead of attacking me directly.  If you're not interested in debating the actual point being made, fair, I'll stop engaging with you.

[Cauthonfan4]

3 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

How does it not matter?  Moraine was struggling in the middle of a swarm

She wasn't in the middle of a swarm at that time. They were all bunched up and waiting to charge her. With nothing between her and them.

4 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

The group of five were facing a swarm all nicely bunched together with no concern for fallout or collateral

And so that excuses wiping out hordes when moiraine struggled with a dozen or two? Get real?

Gonna excuse nynaeve somehow knowing how to take control of a circle without training and save egwene too?

What about egwene saving near death?

 

[Cauthonfan4]

4 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Not relevant, because it's not the argument I made.

I said Moraine Might have been equal to 3 people who were weak

Unless they nerfed moiraine from the books no. And nothing I saw indicated she was nerfed seeing as she was held on the same level as liandrin and others, if not higher. 

4 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

I was saying we're talking about significant power gaps between Moraine vs Nynaeve+Egwene

So now our power creep is so high that when rand wipes out a horde outside Maradon its going to need to be around a hundred thousand to rven have the intended impact. If not higher.

4 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

If you're not interested in debating the actual point being made, fair, I'll stop engaging with you

Rich coming from a guy who makes a false claim and then pretends he didn't.

Edited January 19, 2022 by Cauthonfan4

[KakitaOCU]

2 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

She wasn't in the middle of a swarm at that time. They were all bunched up and waiting to charge her. With nothing between her and them.

 

At which point she grabbed a building and threw it at them.  But again, she's not in the ballpark that Nynaeve+Egwene are which is my point on the difference between the two scenes.

 

3 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

And so that excuses wiping out hordes when moiraine struggled with a dozen or two? Get real?

 

Given the major power gap between a N+E vs Moraine, yes, yes it does.

 

4 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

Gonna excuse nynaeve somehow knowing how to take control of a circle without training and save egwene too?

What about egwene saving near death?

I can't "Excuse" or theorize on those points yet, we don't know enough.  it's clear they've changed how circles work, since in the books you draw less than your full potential and can't be forced to burn out.  We'll have to see if they explain or discuss further or if that does indeed become a gap in logic/plot.  But again, we don't know enough to judge that yet.  It is absolutely a change from the books.

[KakitaOCU]

3 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

Unless they nerfed moiraine from the books no. And nothing I saw indicated she was nerfed seeing as she was held on the same level as liandrin and others, if not higher. 

They actually gave us a gauge to read strength in the series.  Best example for Moraine is her vs Logain in Ep 4.  She has a single, fairly thick line of Saidar flowing to her.  I'd judge about half a foot up to a foot diameter.

Now check the fight at the end of Ep 8,  The two nameless ones have maybe wrist thick single strands, Amalisa seems to have 2 about the same.  Putting those 4 together would be comparable to Moraine, though you're welcome to debate since we don't fully understand what the threads signify.

Meanwhile Egwene has 3 threads comparable to Moraine and Nynaeve has 5.  Which at face value puts the two of them together at being somewhere between 4 and 8 times more powerful.  

 

[Cauthonfan4]

1 minute ago, KakitaOCU said:

Meanwhile Egwene has 3 threads comparable to Moraine and Nynaeve has 5.  Which at face value puts the two of them together at being somewhere between 4 and 8 times more powerful

Which doesn't mean wiping out 5k with ease.

Let's assume even 8 times stronger for niceness. They should he able to hold there own against a few hundred, maybe a thousand. 

Not 5 ot 20k.

 

[Cauthonfan4]

1 minute ago, KakitaOCU said:

Look, it's clear you're not coming to this with good faith.

Even using your numbers they shouldn't be able to wipe out 5k+. So yes. Consistently inconsistent is still true.

 

3 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

I fully admitted circles appear to work differently and we don't know enough to know what that means

When your magic system has no clear rules and is used to further the plot your magic system is not a magic system and just a crutch. This is a huge part of the problem with yhe show. 

[Wassup]

1 hour ago, Mirefox said:

More thoughts as I continue watching bits and pieces of this:

 

- We are supposed to accept that Nyn is more powerful than any Aes Sedai but because she isn’t trained she can’t use her powers yet unless under extreme duress or emotion?  Fine.  So why when her small village is being slaughtered by an army of unknown monsters could she do nothing?  Not emotional enough?

 

- We have all discusses the weaving choreography and I’ve never minded how it was portrayed.  One neat little thing I just noticed I’m Episode 1 was when Moiraine was fighting off the trollocs and she actually stared one down and gave a little nod, seeming directing a weave with her head.  Cool little touch.

Nyn’s talent is in healing and the only time she has unknowingly channeled is when she was healing/treating someone. So, she would not have been able to do anything during the attack. She was not around for the aftermath to do any unintentional channeling. 
 

I think the weaving choreography is a bit much at times, like when Mo heals Tam. 
I did like the head nod you mention. 
I like the book concept of laying hands on the person better. They had to change it though in order to make Nyn’s big scene possible. 
 

[Katherine]

37 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

I'm unsure of your argument here.  I suggested Amalisa was trained in terms of knowing how to weave and was essentially using Nynaeve and Egwene's power.  Her being personally weak isn't really relevant to the point being made

 

I have read the books several times, but it has been about two years so everyone can correct me if I am wrong.... but combat was NOT EVER something that was taught to a novice or an Accepted. 

Edited January 19, 2022 by Katherine

[Mirefox]

12 minutes ago, Wassup said:

Nyn’s talent is in healing and the only time she has unknowingly channeled is when she was healing/treating someone. So, she would not have been able to do anything during the attack. She was not around for the aftermath to do any unintentional channeling. 
 

I think the weaving choreography is a bit much at times, like when Mo heals Tam. 
I did like the head nod you mention. 
I like the book concept of laying hands on the person better. They had to change it though in order to make Nyn’s big scene possible. 
 

She is trying to heal someone during the attack.  Some old man with a white beard.

[Raal Gurniss]

36 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

 

At which point she grabbed a building and threw it at them.  But again, she's not in the ballpark that Nynaeve+Egwene are which is my point on the difference between the two scenes.

 

 

Given the major power gap between a N+E vs Moraine, yes, yes it does.

 

I can't "Excuse" or theorize on those points yet, we don't know enough.  it's clear they've changed how circles work, since in the books you draw less than your full potential and can't be forced to burn out.  We'll have to see if they explain or discuss further or if that does indeed become a gap in logic/plot.  But again, we don't know enough to judge that yet.  It is absolutely a change from the books.

And even combined they aren’t supposed to be on a level even close to Rand….And yet…..

[KakitaOCU]

17 minutes ago, Katherine said:

 

I have read the books several times, but it has been about two years so everyone can correct me if I am wrong.... but combat was NOT EVER something that was taught to a novice or an Accepted. 

You're correct, but did Amalisa use combat weaves?  Balls of Thunder and aimed blades or explosions?  She summoned a storm and rained Lightning Down.  Something that might have been talked about in general weather studies.   

My comment about Amalisa being trained was meant to be about her ability to weave in general and that she might know how to link and that she could take the N+E Battery and use it effectively.  My apologies if I wasn't clear enough.

[KakitaOCU]

3 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

And even combined they aren’t supposed to be on a level even close to Rand….And yet…..

I think people are focusing on the theoretical numbers instead of the actual feat.  Let's talk about that.

The 5 at the end of Episode 8 created a huge storm that brought repeated lightning strikes down in an area.  It was raw destruction without aim or focus.  You wouldn't even have to aim or control it, just build the storm and then let it go.

Comparatively Rand at his most destructive is throwing out constantly opening and shutting gateways that spread and leap about, filaments of fire that extend and maintain hundreds of feat.  

Trying to think of a good real life comparison.  Maybe compare destroying a watermelon with a giant hammer versus taking a rapier and stabbing it repetitively in a pattern until it breaks.  The hammer doesn't take much skill or effort, you have to force it up, then gravity will handle the rest.  The rapier you're constantly thrusting forward, resetting and striking again, moving the aim, controlling where the point goes in a finite control.

Rand creates controlled chaos where he always has the ability to stop what he's doing and where he generally controls where he destroys.  Amalisa and co just unleashed raw devastation in an area and hoped for the best.