Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[ilovezam]

10 minutes ago, Terry05 said:

Obviously without seeing her DM's we can't know for certain - but I can just imagine the type of shit she's receiving and no doubt it wold be from men who are likely saying things they wouldn't say to a male, so I don't doubt what she's saying at all.

I mean from the rest of the story she suggests that people ask her how she can still sleep at night, and some people asked her to kill herself.

 

Both of these examples are 100% things people would say to Rafe.

 

Not saying it's okay, but I don't think sexism really seems like the driving force behind all the hate for this show.

 

If anything, people who know who Sarah is is probably a really upset book reader who's pissed off at how the show treats the source material. For sure there would be sexist morons in that group, but I also think she's kinda dismissing criticism by only paying attention to that aspect.

Edited January 12, 2022 by ilovezam

[fra85uk]

Well It would have been strange if she would have said " oh we did a dumpster Fire"

While i condemn any threat and inappropriate behaviour, dismissing all criticism make me think that when the show will be cancelled, the blame will go to angry bookfans (i.e. the same category that now doesn't matter because It's a Just a tiny tiny minority)

But we have seen this already for Cowboy bebop 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ilovezam]

1 minute ago, fra85uk said:

Well It would have been strange if she would have said " oh we did a dumpster Fire"

While i condemn any threat and inappropriate behaviour, dismissing all criticism make me think that when the show will be cancelled, the blame will go to angry bookfans (i.e. the same category that now doesn't matter because It's a Just a tiny tiny minority)

But we have seen this already for Cowboy bebop 

 

I think regardless of whether you liked the season, the finale was pretty much universally thought to be poor, and I think a smart way to talk about that would be to latch onto some of the prevailing ideas being floated around about COVID and Barney Harris really affecting some of the scenes.

 

Doubling down on it and claiming that it was expertly written is just going to make everyone dread the writing for Season 2, methinks.

[fra85uk]

Just now, ilovezam said:

 

I think regardless of whether you liked the season, the finale was pretty much universally thought to be poor, and I think a smart way to talk about that would be to latch onto some of the prevailing ideas being floated around about COVID and Barney Harris really affecting some of the scenes.

 

Doubling down on it and claiming that it was expertly written is just going to make everyone dread the writing for Season 2, methinks.

But in fact they will not change direction in S2. 

[ilovezam]

Just now, fra85uk said:

But in fact they will not change direction in S2. 

 

Then all is lost ?

[fra85uk]

Look, when Cowboy bebop was cancelled, one of the writers started to blame the nerds on Twitter (i.e. the same category they constantly mocked) These hollywood people are always right in their mind.

 

[VooDooNut]

30 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

But in fact they will not change direction in S2. 

It can't be "in fact". Season 2 takes place in the future.

[fra85uk]

12 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

It can't be "in fact". Season 2 takes place in the future.

Can you 100% assume

 that i cannot time-travel? :d 

[EmreY]

4 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

Can you 100% assume

 that i cannot time-travel? :d 

 

It seems less likely than your liking Series 1, so close to 105%. ? 

 

51 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

Look, when Cowboy bebop was cancelled, one of the writers started to blame the nerds on Twitter (i.e. the same category they constantly mocked)

 

The same will no doubt happen if the WOT series is cancelled too, since...

 

52 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

These hollywood people are always right in their mind.

 

... are no different to you or me. ? 

[fra85uk]

I will prove to you be foreshadowing abilities in a few...Just give me the time to set up my device.

[Ralph]

1 hour ago, ilovezam said:

Got you fam

Thank you. Perfect. 

1 hour ago, ilovezam said:

 

Transcript:

 

TL;DR: She loves the show, thinks that Episode 8 was expertly written, and claims that people going after her are all men who are only doing it because she's a woman. She's fully on board with the story they're telling for the show.

 

 

That the confrontation at the eye was surgically and deftly done. She didn't mention the rest. 

That people are going after her with more energy because she is a woman, and she claims to know that are not going after anyone else in the same way. She doesn't exactly say they are sexist, just that they see a woman as an easier target. 

1 hour ago, ilovezam said:

 

 

She doesn't talk about any of the well-written criticism directed at the show, and chooses to only address the idea that people are "coming for [her] throat", and that the people doing that were all sexist men, which I think is pretty nonsensical. I'd bet my left kidney that Rafe is receiving actual death threats and hate in orders of magnitude higher than what she's receiving - not even many people would have known of Sarah Nakamura at this point.

The whole post is to address her DMs. 

She says she knows Rafe is not. 

1 hour ago, ilovezam said:

Personally I don't think this is a super good look for Season 2. It seems book expert consultant thought that Episode 8 was "deft[ly] and surgical[ly]" written, and I think even the people who generally loved Season 1 would find it hard-pressed to agree with that.

The confrontation at the Eye I thought was very good, actually. It was the other scenes not, which she didn't discuss. 

I am also very interested to discover what the "seeds" are. 

1 hour ago, ilovezam said:

 

The problem with a show that goes out of its way to be extremely politically driven is that the politics are often used as a shield against criticism. I'm pretty damn left-leaning, but I have to repeatedly make these disclaimers to even criticize the show - Rafe stated explicitly that the Wheel of Time would receive a feminist makeover from him, and the end result is that if you didn't like it, you might just be a sexist. Sarah seeds to be hiding behind exactly that, and I really don't like that.

I don't agree. And he didn't say "a feminist makeover". He said some parts of the gender disparity need updating, and as a feminist that is very important to him. 

1 hour ago, ilovezam said:

 

Having said all that, people who are personally attacking her do need to take a step back and take a deep breath, and not let their remarks muddy the waters of reasonable critique. 

 

[notpropaganda73]

8 hours ago, ashi said:

Reading and writing this actually makes me fear the show will lean more heavily into Perrin the anxious berserker, afraid of losing his humanity to the wolf, than Perrin, who hates killing because it to him is morally repugnant, who believes that it is killing by volition, not only in animal rage, that risks one's humanity.

 

This is interesting to me, because I thought that they actually tried to emphasise this part of Perrin's journey in S1 by focussing solely on his relationship with the Tinkers? I'm not saying they did a good job (they really didn't, especially in the final two episodes), but wouldn't the fact they leaned in to his time with the Tinkers, him explaining the Way of the Leaf to Rand, the way he talks to Loial in ep8 about "doing nothing" and that struggle - isn't that all more pointed towards what you highlight here, rather than the "animal within"? 

[ilovezam]

15 minutes ago, Ralph said:

That the confrontation at the eye was surgically and deftly done. She didn't mention the rest. 

Even if she was exclusively talking about that one scene... That scene was also the moment Ishamael wrongly taught Rand how to channel saidin but he managed to do it anyway (maybe that's one of those "seeds" she's talking about, idk), and Rand deciding to not be evil because the version of Egwene Ishamael showed him wasn't what Egwene would want (why not do another version of reality where she does get all the stuff mentioned?)

 

At any rate she repeats over and over again how happy she is with the season and it doesn't fill me with confidence. YMMV.

 

25 minutes ago, Ralph said:

2 hours ago, ilovezam said:

The problem with a show that goes out of its way to be extremely politically driven is that the politics are often used as a shield against criticism. I'm pretty damn left-leaning, but I have to repeatedly make these disclaimers to even criticize the show - Rafe stated explicitly that the Wheel of Time would receive a feminist makeover from him, and the end result is that if you didn't like it, you might just be a sexist. Sarah seeds to be hiding behind exactly that, and I really don't like that.

I don't agree. And he didn't say "a feminist makeover". He said some parts of the gender disparity need updating, and as a feminist that is very important to him. 

 

He explicitly stated that he'll be writing the show in a way to "much better reflect what [he] hope[s] Robert Jordan would write if he were to write today." Rosamund Pike also claimed TV series was a feminist fantasy which will inject more male nudity to address the historical imbalance, and this is her take on the Breaking of the World:

 

"When I found out that Robert Jordan had been a helicopter gunner in Vietnam, I thought, oh, that's where this big fantasy world originates. That's why he's interested in men who had power and abused it and broke the world"

 

Whatever the language used, I think it is reasonably uncontroversial to say that this is what they are openly going for. I don't even disagree with their political opinions, broadly speaking, but my point still stands.

 

[notpropaganda73]

The best thing for Sarah, and for the show, would be just to avoid social media altogether, sadly. 

 

I don't really blame her for what she says in that video, when you are receiving private messages of that nature it is absolutely natural to zone in on those ones and tune out the rest. It's a common reaction to those things and when it gets as personal as I imagine it must have for Sarah, I think it's normal to react to that abuse as she has, rather than talk about any of the criticisms. Maybe she hasn't seen any of the well reasoned criticisms, if her inbox is flooded with abuse and she has avoided social media for the most part until now. 

 

I understand being worried by her comments but at the same time I wouldn't read too much into this one video in terms of what we will see in S2. It's natural to be very proud of S1 when you are involved in it, making any television show is a huge feat and something as massive as WoT with all the challenges they faced, I would be proud too. So I'm not too het up by her video.

 

As I said in my ep8 reaction post I will be much less forgiving of the show in S2 considering what we got in episode 8, but I am not going to get too het up or worried about the direction it is going in until we get some more solid info (interviews, trailers etc). 

 

 

[notpropaganda73]

7 minutes ago, ilovezam said:

He explicitly stated that he'll be writing the show in a way to "much better reflect what [he] hope[s] Robert Jordan would write if he were to write today." Rosamund Pike also claimed TV series was a feminist fantasy which will inject more male nudity to address the historical imbalance, and this is her take on the Breaking of the World:

 

"When I found out that Robert Jordan had been a helicopter gunner in Vietnam, I thought, oh, that's where this big fantasy world originates. That's why he's interested in men who had power and abused it and broke the world"

 

Whatever the language used, I think it is reasonably uncontroversial to say that this is what they are openly going for. I don't even disagree with their political opinions, broadly speaking, but my point still stands.

 

I don't really disagree with you here, but in terms of the part I've bolded - considering what we actually saw in S1 vs. what Rosamund suggested in that quote, I'm not all that worried about that. Wasn't it just Lan's perfectly sculpted bum that we saw? I can't remember anything else (though perhaps that's because it was the greatest bum I've ever seen, and now I am blind to all other potential nudity). 

[VooDooNut]

5 minutes ago, ilovezam said:

Even if she was exclusively talking about that one scene... That scene was also the moment Ishamael wrongly taught Rand how to channel saidin but he managed to do it anyway (maybe that's one of those "seeds" she's talking about, idk), and Rand deciding to not be evil because the version of Egwene Ishamael showed him wasn't what Egwene would want (why not do another version of reality where she does get all the stuff mentioned?)

 

Hmmmmmm....

 

*sips tea*

 

hmmmmmm...I think this show is going for subversion. And I like it.

 

2 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 

I don't really disagree with you here, but in terms of the part I've bolded - considering what we actually saw in S1 vs. what Rosamund suggested in that quote, I'm not all that worried about that. Wasn't it just Lan's perfectly sculpted bum that we saw? I can't remember anything else (though perhaps that's because it was the greatest bum I've ever seen, and now I am blind to all other potential nudity). 

Amazing.

[ilovezam]

29 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

I don't really disagree with you here, but in terms of the part I've bolded - considering what we actually saw in S1 vs. what Rosamund suggested in that quote, I'm not all that worried about that. Wasn't it just Lan's perfectly sculpted bum that we saw? I can't remember anything else (though perhaps that's because it was the greatest bum I've ever seen, and now I am blind to all other potential nudity). 

 

I'm actually perfectly okay with Lan ass too. But if you read the original script there were gratuitous scenes of Mat giving oral sex and Rand fingering Egwene, so maybe that's what Pike was talking about.

 

I still don't really mind male nudity in general, but the sentiment she put forth in that interview was really weird, and she completely misunderstood the Breaking of the World, which was never about men abusing their powers.

[notpropaganda73]

1 minute ago, ilovezam said:

 

I'm actually perfectly okay with Lan ass too. But if you read the original script there were gratuitous scenes of Mat giving oral sex and Rand fingering Egwene, so maybe that's what Pike was talking about.

 

I still don't really mind male nudity in general, but the sentiment she put forth in that interview was really weird, and she completely misunderstood the Breaking of the World, which was never about men abusing their powers.

 

Neither would involve male nudity, but rather female pleasure. But I take your point!

 

On the breaking, I am still holding out hope that the show has really leaned in to current-day Aes Sedai being really ill-informed. Rosamund's reading of it would inform her performance of Moiraine in that way, but that is definitely just in the "hopefully this is what's happening" category rather than anything too solid ?

[VooDooNut]

6 minutes ago, ilovezam said:

 

I'm actually perfectly okay with Lan ass too. But if you read the original script there were gratuitous scenes of Mat giving oral sex and Rand fingering Egwene, so maybe that's what Pike was talking about.

 

I still don't really mind male nudity in general, but the sentiment she put forth in that interview was really weird, and she completely misunderstood the Breaking of the World, which was never about men abusing their powers.

I would be cautious reading too far into earlier drafts of a script. Robert Jordan hid his early attempts at writing from the world too, not because they weren't legible, but because they didn't reflect his intent. I'd rather critique the episode that is rather than the one that might have been.

Edited January 12, 2022 by VooDooNut
forgot a word

[fra85uk]

Blip 

Prrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.......

Scrrrrrrrrrrrr....

slapping frantically the screen

 

Oh, we are in the writing room.

 

Rafe: "Season 2! Let's start rolling. I was thinking...cold open ep.1: Lews Therin is madly walking among the debris of his house, destruction and dead bodies everywhere and at some point..."

Anonymous writer 1: "he meets with Isham..."

Rafe: "Fired! Next one in please. He meets with Latra who briefly releases him from his madness to say <Ah Ah I told you so, you stupid arrogant man> " .

Anonymous writer 2 while taking notes: " <Ah Ah> with a solemn tone?"

Rafe: "Think about Nelson"

AW2: "Mandela?"

Rafe "Simpson's Nelson, you ****. Next!"

AW3: "ehmm...and then LTT suicides and creates Dragonmount?"

Rafe: "No, this would be sooooooooooooooooo cliché. Latra nukes LTT and creates Dragonmount. Then, looking at the mayhem from distance <Farewell, Dragon reborn. Our only hope now  is that the Dragon Reborn Reborn will be a female>"

 

To be continued

Edited January 12, 2022 by fra85uk

[ilovezam]

21 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

I would be cautious reading too far into earlier drafts of a script. Robert Jordan hid his early attempts at writing from the world too, not because they weren't legible, but because they didn't reflect his intent. I'd rather critique the episode that is rather than the one that might have been.

Fair, fair. But then I wonder what Pike is talking about regarding male nudity.

 

1 minute ago, fra85uk said:

"Farewell, Dragon reborn. Our only hope now  is that the Dragon Reborn Reborn will be a female!"

I know your post is satire but this line doesn't sound that unlikely to be in the show and that makes me sad.

[Ralph]

1 hour ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 

I don't really disagree with you here, but in terms of the part I've bolded - considering what we actually saw in S1 vs. what Rosamund suggested in that quote, I'm not all that worried about that. Wasn't it just Lan's perfectly sculpted bum that we saw? I can't remember anything else (though perhaps that's because it was the greatest bum I've ever seen, and now I am blind to all other potential nudity). 

I don't recall her saying it is a feminist fantasy, just that was the description the interviewer put in the article. 

[DaddyFinn]

2 hours ago, fra85uk said:

Blip 

Prrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.......

Scrrrrrrrrrrrr....

slapping frantically the screen

 

Oh, we are in the writing room.

 

Rafe: "Season 2! Let's start rolling. I was thinking...cold open ep.1: Lews Therin is madly walking among the debris of his house, destruction and dead bodies everywhere and at some point..."

Anonymous writer 1: "he meets with Isham..."

Rafe: "Fired! Next one in please. He meets with Latra who briefly releases him from his madness to say <Ah Ah I told you so, you stupid arrogant man> " .

Anonymous writer 2 while taking notes: " <Ah Ah> with a solemn tone?"

Rafe: "Think about Nelson"

AW2: "Mandela?"

Rafe "Simpson's Nelson, you ****. Next!"

AW3: "ehmm...and then LTT suicides and creates Dragonmount?"

Rafe: "No, this would be sooooooooooooooooo cliché. Latra nukes LTT and creates Dragonmount. Then, looking at the mayhem from distance <Farewell, Dragon reborn. Our only hope now  is that the Dragon Reborn Reborn will be a female>"

 

To be continued

So tiresome.

[fra85uk]

17 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

So tiresome.

All the effort i have put ?

tuning the machine, plugging wires, find Rafe's tell and you reward me with a low-effort post ?

 

[ArrylT]

5 hours ago, notpropaganda73 said:

The best thing for Sarah, and for the show, would be just to avoid social media altogether, sadly. 

 

I don't really blame her for what she says in that video, when you are receiving private messages of that nature it is absolutely natural to zone in on those ones and tune out the rest. It's a common reaction to those things and when it gets as personal as I imagine it must have for Sarah, I think it's normal to react to that abuse as she has, rather than talk about any of the criticisms. Maybe she hasn't seen any of the well reasoned criticisms, if her inbox is flooded with abuse and she has avoided social media for the most part until now. 

 

I understand being worried by her comments but at the same time I wouldn't read too much into this one video in terms of what we will see in S2. It's natural to be very proud of S1 when you are involved in it, making any television show is a huge feat and something as massive as WoT with all the challenges they faced, I would be proud too. So I'm not too het up by her video.

 

As I said in my ep8 reaction post I will be much less forgiving of the show in S2 considering what we got in episode 8, but I am not going to get too het up or worried about the direction it is going in until we get some more solid info (interviews, trailers etc). 

 

 

 

Absolutely - it is only human nature to focus on either the positive or the negative.   If you had someone knock on your door and say "I liked the show but", then the next person who knocked on the door said "The show sucks and it is all your fault you %$%" and then the last person said "I loved the show" (then multiply by 100),  it is highly doubtful you're going to focus on the average response - just the ones that were most positive & negative - that is simply how our brains are wired.   

 

That does not mean constructive criticism is not useful or warranted to provide.  Rather timing is everything, and timing is not always something the person wanting to give criticism over has control over.  Or think of it this way - you're at a party, you see a friend and walk over to them and want to say "Hey I think you still owe me $ for the bet you lost" but before you get there they are in an argument that leaves them a little stressed.   Who is more likely to be appreciated & listened to.  You or another friend who walks up and says "Hey are you doing ok?  I've missed seeing you. "

 

No doubt in my mind that, like most tv shows, it is probable that WOTTV will have people visiting these forums, and plenty of other places, to see what kind of response the show is getting.   So the criticism will be noticed by interns and so forth and passed forward at some point.   But expecting someone who may feel under attack (and we do not get to tell someone whether they can feel this way or not) to acknowledge & respond to constructive criticism after incidents in which they feel personally attacked is simply not the normal way people respond, imho.