Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[WoTwasThat]

5 hours ago, WoTwasThat said:

I keep reading the same three excuses: #BecauseCovid, #OnlyHad8Hours, #BarneyJumpedShip.

 

I don't understand how any of those excuses explain the abominations - what I call The Big Changes - of this show.....

1. The DR can be male or female, severely undercutting the central premise of the series that the DR is going to be reincarnated into a world and magic system stacked against him.
2. Related to point one, the dichotomy between Saidar and Saidin and taint upon Saidin is never explained, barely alluded to, and - at best - the show plays fast and loose with all the rules appurtenant to this distinction. This (and the DR having to channel the tainted Saidin - see point 1) is what makes WOT unique, and uniquely awesome.
3. Super Power Ranger Nynaeve saves the day again, and again, and again with her stupendous and completely untrained channeling ability, at the expense of other characters. She even knows how to track Mo better than her own warder (my god). 
4. Super Power Ranger Nynaeve banging Lan in Season 1, unmarried.
5. The Dumbest Plan in History for Mo to ditch her warder and take a complete noob DR to face the DO. My god, my head still hurts thinking about how asinine this plot was.
6. The entire Eye / Tarwin Gap sequence was totally different from the books, way worse, and robs Rand of his coming out moment. Instead, Rand is revealed through a montage of Machin Shin and Rand playing detective with Min (oh my head!).
7. That LTT scene.... gah this is just killing me how terrible it's like it is deliberate.

Seriously, this is not a rhetorical question: please explain how #BecauseCovid, #OnlyHad8Hours, or #BarneyJumpedShip explains any of The Big Changes. Because without an explanation, I have no idea why I or anyone else who hated these changes should hold out any hope for future seasons.

 

I posted this query about 6 pages back. Any takers?

[WoTwasThat]

5 hours ago, Blackbyrd said:

I can explain that point 2 is the only worthwhile talking point... but you do you brosef

 

Sorry, I missed this one response. "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"

[Blackbyrd]

Just now, WoTwasThat said:

 

Sorry, I missed this one response. "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"

 

I guess it was good.... I, myself, or any other one needs to respond to you or your ranty cohorts- it's on you

[Spiritweaver1]

1 hour ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

Because Egwene unifying the tower and healing balefire damage isn't huge points.

 

 

I have to ask for a specific citation of where anybody heals balefire.   Not even the DO can bring back somebody that got balefire.  Ask Rahvin. Thanks for your patience.

[VooDooNut]

Just now, Spiritweaver1 said:

I have to ask for a specific citation of where anybody heals balefire.   Not even the DO can bring back somebody that got balefire.  Ask Rahvin. Thanks for your patience.

It's more that the "Flame of Tar Valon" can counter the destruction of balefire to the Pattern, as I understand it.

 

https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Flame_of_Tar_Valon

[ArrylT]

1 hour ago, EmreY said:

 

Give what?  The Tarwin's Gap encounter?  For the slow burn for the main character.  Giving the Messiah every opportunity to show off at every chance would also make things more boring.  Which is part of the reason why Rand's appearances in the books declines precipitously except when he's not showing off. 

 

I am starting to think that Agelmar being listed as a Great Captain was a mistake.  

 

Having read EOTW again, and the beginning of TGH (just about to reach Cairhien) - I have not seen any actually evidence that Agelmar was currently being a great general.    I have no doubt that in the history of WOT that he was.  Apparently he led 29 000 soldiers against the Aiel during the Aiel War.

 

However, if one wanted to, there is actual evidence in those books that does suggest Agelmar was becoming incompetent, or at least overly concerned with his own reputation, within the first 2 books.

 

If someone really wanted to, they could easily dissect Agelmar as harshly as some of the characters have been torn apart on the forums.  Or better yet Rafe Judkins.    If everything is to be blamed on Rafe on the show then logically speaking all the stuff that happened at Fal Dara lies on Agelmars head.

 

Prison Break

Trolloc Attack

Horn stolen

2 main characters could have been killed (Egwene & Mat)

Arrow that may have killed Siuan Sanche

Orders given in his name that he did not give

Losing the battle at Tarwins Gap before Rands appearance.

Sister getting compulsed by Liandrin

 

Hardly screams the mark of a great leader.

 

Am I saying this should all fall on Agelmars head?  No.   But it is hard for me to see how everything to do with WoT being "awful" is Rafes fault if the same cannot be applied to other situations.   I mean in Agelmars defence that is how the Creator wrote him - more Flash than substance - a Great captain who does not actually do anything in the books worthy of the title*.  It is a shame Rafe does not get the same defence - because even a pandemic cannot stop people from judging him and finding fault.    But Agelmar is the great captain who can do no wrong. ?

 

The more I think about it, the more I think Agelmar comes off better in the show than in the books.  Don't get me wrong I like the character in the books, but at least the character in the show is honest & realistic.   

 

https://library.tarvalon.net/index.php?title=Agelmar_Jagad

 

* - Even the Companion guide has little to say about Agelmar.   Again not disputing he was considered (perception) to be a Great Captain - just that there is little evidence to show for it.  Most of the evidence is mroe for him being respectful & courteous (which apart for 1 brief moment he is in the show)  Simply one of those things we have to take on faith - so I have no problems with the shows portrayal, especially since I felt he was a decent role model.

[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Why would change the “style” the “pattern” the “method” the “route” the “view” the “path” the “direction” they chose if they don’t “acknowledge” anything is wrong with the way they have done things.

This is gibberish. Define your terms.

What is it that they are supposed to change? 

[Sammuthegreat]

On 12/27/2021 at 11:51 PM, Quiksilver said:

 

Yea I posted pre-maturely. Here is the actual list

 

Core:

- Rafe Judkins (e01,e08 + showrunner all episodes)

- Celine Song (e05 + staff writer all episodes)

- Michael Clarkson (story editor all episodes)

- Paul Clarkson (story editor all episodes)

Guest:

- Amanda Kate Shuman (e02,e07)

- Justine Juel Gillmer (e06)

- Katherine B. McKenna (e07)

- Dave Hill (e04)

 

First time poster here - hi - for what it's worth (and apologies for responding to an old post here), a good friend of mine knows one of the Clarkson twins. Apparently both of them are genuine fans of the books, and both have left the show after season 1. Read into that what you will. 

[Cauthonfan4]

11 minutes ago, Sammuthegreat said:

Apparently both of them are genuine fans of the books, and both have left the show after season 1.

I read it as people who are genuinely unhappy with the butchering of the source material.

[Skipp]

Another thing about Agelmar and the Great Captains in general is that the concept hasn't been mentioned in the show yet.  I think it would be neat to introduce into the show but it isn't crucial.  But if they were to introduce the concept it also wouldn't be hard to change the Great Captainship to King Easar instead of Agelmar.

 

13 minutes ago, Sammuthegreat said:

First time poster here - hi - for what it's worth (and apologies for responding to an old post here), a good friend of mine knows one of the Clarkson twins. Apparently both of them are genuine fans of the books, and both have left the show after season 1. Read into that what you will. 

 

Welcome to the boards, thanks for the input.

[Skipp]

2 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

I read it as people who are genuinely unhappy with the butchering of the source material.

 

That seems to align with your bias of the show.

 

People made similar claims to the departure of Barney Harris.

 

While you could certainly be correct there are several other reasons they aren't onboard for season 2.

[Raal Gurniss]

11 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

This is gibberish. Define your terms.

What is it that they are supposed to change? 

I’m sorry? “Gibberish”? Well….Not sure I can produce what you want to the standard you demand.

[Cauthonfan4]

1 minute ago, Skipp said:

But if they were to introduce the concept it also wouldn't be hard to change the Great Captainship to King Easar instead of Agelmar.

Doesn't mean they had to butcher jagads character though. Why take such a genuinely likeable person and make him terrible?

[Cauthonfan4]

3 minutes ago, Skipp said:

While you could certainly be correct there are several other reasons they aren't onboard for season 2.

As a genuine fan it's about the only reason I could see for leaving the show short of family or health reasons.

[DaddyFinn]

6 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

As a genuine fan it's about the only reason I could see for leaving the show short of family or health reasons.

Their contract ending as planned was the first that came to my mind. I don't know how long writers tend to stay on shows.

Edited January 7, 2022 by DaddyFinn

[Cauthonfan4]

1 minute ago, DaddyFinn said:

Their contract ending as planned was the first that came to my mind. I don't know how long writers tend to stay on shows

So a show which only has 3 or 4 people who have read rhe source material is going to let two of those go but keep some around who haven't read the material?

[Gothic Flame]

8 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

So a show which only has 3 or 4 people who have read rhe source material is going to let two of those go but keep some around who haven't read the material?

If nothing else it's consistent in the inconsistency...

[Sammuthegreat]

I should add, having dropped the above bombshell, that I don't know why they've left. It could've been the plan all along, or not. If I hear anything more I can pass it along, of course. 

[Skipp]

24 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

Doesn't mean they had to butcher jagads character though. Why take such a genuinely likeable person and make him terrible?

Did they make him unlikable?  He was certainly more distrustful of Aes Sedai but they seem to be making that a Theme for the show, that the Aes Sedai's power is weakening.  Once he confirmed that she wasn't there to meddle he was perfectly respectful.

 

Then he is shown planning to defend the gap even though he knew it would mean his death but they could provide time for everyone else.  And since they didn't mention that the gap faces trolloc raids every spring allows for him to be surprised by what did come.

 

He then rides to to gap and meets his fate, the same fate he would have met in the books if Rand didn't suddenly remember then suddenly forget how to travel.

 

Also if you remember from AMoL Agelmar was not happy with Lan when he tried interfering with his battle strategy.  He tells Lan to "either relieve him of duty or leave him alone"

[Skipp]

17 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

So a show which only has 3 or 4 people who have read rhe source material is going to let two of those go but keep some around who haven't read the material?

And yet we have people bashing their writing for their episodes.  Shouldn't naysayers be happy that they are gone?

[Gothic Flame]

27 minutes ago, Sammuthegreat said:

I should add, having dropped the above bombshell, that I don't know why they've left. It could've been the plan all along, or not. If I hear anything more I can pass it along, of course. 

Hmm...careful you don't borrow trouble or burn any bridges. The anonymity of the internet isn't always so...anonymous.

[Blackbyrd]

13 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Hmm...careful you don't borrow trouble or burn any bridges. The anonymity of the internet isn't always so...anonymous.

Right? most of us rightfully know you as a WItcher fan who frequents Dragonmount.com

[WoTwasThat]

1 hour ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

I have to ask for a specific citation of where anybody heals balefire.   Not even the DO can bring back somebody that got balefire.  Ask Rahvin. Thanks for your patience.

I’m pretty sure Nynaeve can do that. Correction: Season 2 Nynaeve. “There’s a tell.” And she’ll do it while giving birth to Lan’s baby. This will happen in the Stone of Tear - aka, the Dark One’s Summer Home - just after she seizes Callandor, one of the greatest gender-neutral Sa’Angreal ever created. And the toss of her braids will be EPIC. 
 

And there will be much rejoicing about how cleverly Rafe adapted the books to reach a broader audience. What the big deal, Rand is still the Dragon, etc. 

Edited January 8, 2022 by WoTwasThat

[VooDooNut]

1 minute ago, WoTwasThat said:

I’m pretty sure Nynaeve can do that. Correction: Season 2 Nynaeve. “There’s a tell.” And she’ll do it while giving birth to Lan’s baby. And the toss of her braids will be EPIC. 

Who keeps leaking the scripts?!

[Blackbyrd]

2 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

Who keeps leaking the scripts?!

 

It's just moving up a Lan Crown of Swords moment. You know his most bad ass moment- when he nailed Nynaeve on a boat and what not. Truly glorious.