Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[Skipp]

52 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

You do realize that quote doesn't automatically mean "I'm awesome and no one can do better."  It can very well also mean "I've been given this task, I couldn't forgive myself if I pass it by and someone else messes it up."

Also, please stop mischaracterizing what happened to make a fake point.  Lan was with Nynaeve.  Fast Forward to way late at night or early in the morning, Rand comes to Moraine.  They prep, she masks the bond and they leave.  Lan wakes up, can't feel her, runs to check, finds out she left, tells Nynaeve, sets out after her.

No ignoring the issue or writing off the issue occured.

Especially when they set up the idea in episode 5 that should would mask the bond if one of them got into sexy times.

 

I personally like the idea that Moiraine told Lan that she liked Nynaeve hoping they would hook up so she could intentionally mask the bond.

[Raal Gurniss]

On 1/5/2022 at 1:04 PM, notpropaganda73 said:

 

I think that's all very fair. Heavy-handed is a really great way to describe it. It feels as though every scene and situation, this point needs to be hammered home about women in this world. Rather than allowing the characters room to breathe and express things that would show it anyway. There's definitely a tunnel vision thing going on in S1 with this I think

 

But I'm still optimistic about the future of the show, in spite of all those fair criticisms

….If they haven’t acknowledged any criticism it will be unlikely that they will improve

[RhienneAgain]

55 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Especially when they set up the idea in episode 5 that should would mask the bond if one of them got into sexy times.

 

I personally like the idea that Moiraine told Lan that she liked Nynaeve hoping they would hook up so she could intentionally mask the bond.

Ezcept she couldn't have known she would need to mask at that point as she had no idea Rand would come to her.

[Skipp]

3 minutes ago, RhienneAgain said:

Ezcept she couldn't have known she would need to mask at that point as she had no idea Rand would come to her.

 

I also personally believe that she confronted them earlier and told them that everyone except the Dragon would die if they went to the eye to flush out anyone keeping a secret. 

 

She was perfectly willing to take them all but she did everything she could to get Rand to reveal himself.

[DaddyFinn]

I didn't find the music/sound thread so..

 

These are the officially released translations so far

 

[VooDooNut]

23 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

I didn't find the music/sound thread so..

 

These are the officially released translations so far

 

Reading these gave me chills. Definitely more intimate than I was expecting. I love how poetic and insightful these lyrics are.

[DaddyFinn]

This was a great compilation! Got chills.

 

 

Edit. The channel has other compilations too. This was good.

 

 

 

Edited January 7, 2022 by DaddyFinn

[ilovezam]

 

8 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

I've been given this task, I couldn't forgive myself if I pass it by and someone else messes it up.
 

8 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

This is exactly how I understand that quote.

It's still not a good look considering what he did do to the adaptation.

[KakitaOCU]

2 hours ago, ilovezam said:

 

It's still not a good look considering what he did do to the adaptation.

Not the way logic works.  Those who didn't like the adaptation approach everything from the perspective that he has ruined or damaged or whichever description they want to use.  They then take anything that CAN be meant in a negative light and hold it up as proof.  Confirmation bias at its best.

And no, it's still not a bad look.  The idea that he was offered a project, is a big fan of said project and so didn't want to let others mishandle is not a bad statement, even if some don't like the result.

He also said very early on that the biggest changes happened in the early books since that's when Jordan was a lot more fast and loose and still defining things.

[Hobo]

12 hours ago, Skipp said:

I believe the structure is being changed because Rafe has drawn up outlines for a 6 and 8 season version of the show.  The structure is being changed to fit these timelines.  While everyone on this forum can pick and choose what they would cut and what they would keep we would still need to fit were the story starts and where it ends into one of these 2 scenario's.

 

While I can't say I have seen RJ2's outline for the series I do believe it exists.

Just dont do it? If you have an extensive story of 15 books, just dont tey to cram them into a 6-8 season show. Its like trying to put the square through the circle hole. It just doesn't work unless you cut the square until it isn't a square anymore.

 

I didn't want The Wheel of Time to not be The Wheel of Time but im afraid thats what is happening. Sure all the characters have familiar names but its the wrong story.

[notpropaganda73]

9 hours ago, Raal Gurniss said:

….If they haven’t acknowledged any criticism it will be unlikely that they will improve

 

I don't need creators to acknowledge criticism for me to still be optimistic about the potential direction of the show? 

[RhienneAgain]

6 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

I didn't find the music/sound thread so..

 

These are the officially released translations so far

 

These are beautiful. They seem to have captured the characters and relationships more closely from the books than the show does (e.g. 'Mashiara' - not much evidence of Lan and Nynaeve having any walls to tear down in the show).

[Lethira the second]

2 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

Not the way logic works.  Those who didn't like the adaptation approach everything from the perspective that he has ruined or damaged or whichever description they want to use.  They then take anything that CAN be meant in a negative light and hold it up as proof.  Confirmation bias at its best.

And no, it's still not a bad look.  The idea that he was offered a project, is a big fan of said project and so didn't want to let others mishandle is not a bad statement, even if some don't like the result.

He also said very early on that the biggest changes happened in the early books since that's when Jordan was a lot more fast and loose and still defining things.

 

I'm at work at the moment, so limited in what I can dig up.  I am 95% sure there have been comments from Rafe that *he* pushed for the adaptation to be made rather than someone had it in motion and he got hired.  Anyone else remember this?

[ilovezam]

15 minutes ago, Lethira the second said:

I'm at work at the moment, so limited in what I can dig up.  I am 95% sure there have been comments from Rafe that *he* pushed for the adaptation to be made rather than someone had it in motion and he got hired.  Anyone else remember this?

I remember this too. It's so weird that Rafe apologists are coming out of the woodwork to say otherwise just to make him look less bad. 

 

I think it's clear what he meant when he says he's worried that others would mishandle it - the implication is that he wouldn't.

Totally cool if you like the show, but I don't think it's controversial to say it's of middling quality and only loosely follows the book, with inconsistent stakes, and poor writing.

 

[ilovezam]

2 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

Not the way logic works.  Those who didn't like the adaptation approach everything from the perspective that he has ruined or damaged or whichever description they want to use.  They then take anything that CAN be meant in a negative light and hold it up as proof.  Confirmation bias at its best.

And no, it's still not a bad look.  The idea that he was offered a project, is a big fan of said project and so didn't want to let others mishandle is not a bad statement, even if some don't like the result.

He also said very early on that the biggest changes happened in the early books since that's when Jordan was a lot more fast and loose and still defining things.

 

Eh, it's not supposed to be a logically provable statement. It is not a bad look if you think he didn't "screw this up", and all the power to you if you enjoyed the season even as a book reader.

 

Either way it does speak volumes about his confidence in his ability to, in his own words, "update" Robert Jordan's story, and unfortunately it did not seem to work for very many of us. I don't think it's fair that you dismiss that as confirmation bias, as though your take is somehow objectively correct or logical because you liked a controversial adaptation.

[Gothic Flame]

2 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

Not the way logic works.

Appearances, opinions...have nothing to do with logic. 

Neither does having taste.

Someone imagining he can do better, doesn't mean he objectively will.

If this gets cancelled abruptly this year (as I "believe" it will), the blame game will kick in, and I believe Rafe lacks any self-honesty to blame himself.

[fra85uk]

4 minutes ago, ilovezam said:

I remember this too. It's so weird that Rafe apologists are coming out of the woodwork to say otherwise just to make him look less bad. 

 

I think it's clear what he meant when he says he's worried that others would mishandle it - the implication is that he wouldn't.

Totally cool if you like the show, but I don't think it's controversial to say it's of middling quality and only loosely follows the book, with inconsistent stakes, and poor writing.

 

 

I think this is fairly objective. Then one can enjoy the show anyway (I enjoy Supernatural; I know it's objectively not great tv but I started watching it with my brother years ago and I am attached to the show) but the sheer amount of objective BS in the show is undebatable. If the show was objectively good, it would not suffer from very low ratings in all review sites and even the fan-base would be less divided, notwithstanding the changes from the books.

 

In fact, I am not talking about adaptation issues (of course I feel that replacing RJ contents with RJ2 stuff lowered dramatically the quality of the show but this is an opinion) but I refer to the show itself and I imagine we can all agree that is no masterpiece, is not either at GoT level, probably better than Shannara (which costed much less) and has serious problems in terms of both the pillars that should sustain the show:

 

1) storytelling: from  poor world building to character arcs, to the use of cheap Hollywood tropes, lack of promise/payoff, terrible pacing and huge internal inconsistencies (i.e. not inconsistencies with the books) sometimes even in the same episode.

 

2) filming issues: artificial lighting, bad camera angles, cheap-looking sets and bizzarre costume choices. 

 

 

Now, here it is the problem: very soon, WoT series will have an internal competitor wich is the most famous fantasy IP and it will have a much larger budget ...now as WoT fan I would say that I should hope Lotr series to fail big because i can imagine the 100 millions given to Rafe for a sub-par show easily shifting towards an increased budget for a successful and praised Lotr series.

[ilovezam]

2 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

I think this is fairly objective. Then one can enjoy the show anyway (I enjoy Supernatural; I know it's objectively not great tv but I started watching it with my brother years ago and I am attached to the show) but the sheer amount of objective BS in the show is undebatable. If the show was objectively good, it would not suffer from very low ratings in all review sites and even the fan-base would be less divided, notwithstanding the changes from the books.

 

In fact, I am not talking about adaptation issues (of course I feel that replacing RJ contents with RJ2 stuff lowered dramatically the quality of the show but this is an opinion) but I refer to the show itself and I imagine we can all agree that is no masterpiece, is not either at GoT level, probably better than Shannara (which costed much less) and has serious problems in terms of both the pillars that should sustain the show:

 

1) storytelling: from  poor world building to character arcs, to the use of cheap Hollywood tropes, lack of promise/payoff, terrible pacing and huge internal inconsistencies (i.e. not inconsistencies with the books) sometimes even in the same episode.

 

2) filming issues: artificial lighting, bad camera angles, cheap-looking sets and bizzarre costume choices. 

 

 

Now, here it is the problem: very soon, WoT series will have an internal competitor wich is the most famous fantasy IP and it will have a much larger budget ...now as WoT fan I would say that I should hope Lotr series to fail big because i can imagine the 100 millions given to Rafe for a sub-par show easily shifting towards an increased budget for a successful and praised Lotr series.

 

Agreed fully that there are many failings of the show that run very close to being objectively bad. If you read Rafe's original script for Episode 1 I think it's pretty much objectively awful, awful writing, but I'm hesitant to use the word "objective" because it would just get some people very much up in arms, which makes it impossible to have a dialogue with them.

 

 

[Blackbyrd]

1 hour ago, ilovezam said:

I remember this too. It's so weird that Rafe apologists are coming out of the woodwork to say otherwise just to make him look less bad. 

 

The passive aggressive hypocricy of the 1st statement is a statement unto itself.

 

1 hour ago, ilovezam said:

Either way it does speak volumes about his confidence in his ability to, in his own words, "update" Robert Jordan's story, and unfortunately it did not seem to work for very many of us. 

Perhaps when you talk about your job or the job you're doing you act 'aw shucks' but the majority of people will talk them- and their team up

 

1 hour ago, Gothic Flame said:

Appearances, opinions...have nothing to do with logic. 

Neither does having taste.

Someone imagining he can do better, doesn't mean he objectively will.

If this gets cancelled abruptly this year (as I "believe" it will), the blame game will kick in, and I believe Rafe lacks any self-honesty to blame himself.

 

Yet my logic tells me you are going to say pretty much this exact same thing in near every post you make. So your opinion does have a logical skewer

 

54 minutes ago, ilovezam said:

 

Agreed fully that there are many failings of the show that run very close to being objectively bad. If you read Rafe's original script for Episode 1 I think it's pretty much objectively awful, awful writing, but I'm hesitant to use the word "objective" because it would just get some people very much up in arms, which makes it impossible to have a dialogue with them.

 

 

 

I mean it's not objective to say that your critque is awful- you're using quote marks on the word objective on a written forum. No one is defending anything if one can't even mount a proper atack against it

 

 

 

Edited January 7, 2022 by Blackbyrd

[ilovezam]

 

2 minutes ago, Blackbyrd said:

22 minutes ago, ilovezam said:

 

Agreed fully that there are many failings of the show that run very close to being objectively bad. If you read Rafe's original script for Episode 1 I think it's pretty much objectively awful, awful writing, but I'm hesitant to use the word "objective" because it would just get some people very much up in arms, which makes it impossible to have a dialogue with them.

I mean it's not objective to say that your critque is awful- you're are using quote marks on the word objective on a written forum. No one is defending anything if one can't even mount a proper atack against it

 

 

I'm not sure you understand how quotation marks work my friend.

[Blackbyrd]

41 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

to the use of cheap Hollywood tropes,

 

This is one of the many overstated brolaments on this forum. There are so many of these lying about nearly all screen and many books that to focus in on this without addressing it's cultural prevalence is entirely lazy. What perhaps is meant that you think it's more obvious here than in other places

[Lethira the second]

20 minutes ago, ilovezam said:

 

Agreed fully that there are many failings of the show that run very close to being objectively bad. If you read Rafe's original script for Episode 1 I think it's pretty much objectively awful, awful writing, but I'm hesitant to use the word "objective" because it would just get some people very much up in arms, which makes it impossible to have a dialogue with them.

 

 

 

It's a shame that first draft found its way into circulation.  I don't think there are many authors who would be pleased to see work at that stage making it into the public domain.  -With the possible exception of BS who shares a lot of his drafts as a teaching aid.  

 

The only thing it really highlights for me is how little got changed between the first draft and the final product.  While I don't think it's a good piece of writing, I don't think it fair to tear apart someones first draft.  Every decent piece of advice I have read for writers is 'accept that the first draft is going to stink, go with it, no one is going to see it...'

 

[Blackbyrd]

1 minute ago, ilovezam said:

 

 

I'm not sure you understand how quotation marks work my friend.

 

This is a meaningless post and I will not engage 

[Raal Gurniss]

3 hours ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 

I don't need creators to acknowledge criticism for me to still be optimistic about the potential direction of the show? 

Then why would they improve things? 

[fra85uk]

Just now, Raal Gurniss said:

Then why would they improve things? 

But in fact we will see no improvement but we will also probably see cancellation.