My confusion of how to feel about this whole series.

[Chivalry]

On 12/1/2021 at 8:29 AM, Nors said:

So I think there is a lot of love about WoT. I love the world building and the characters are well defined and, for the most part, interesting. Of course I have my favorites. 

 

I read the first 3 books about 10 years ago. I just picked up book 4. It's interesting to revisit a world now that I'm in my 30s rather than my early 20s. A lot of the things I remember not connecting with still persist. The main thing is the way the different binary gendered people think about the other gender. Mat thinks all women can't help but clean things all the time. Nynaeve loves Lan but also thinks he is dumb all the time.

 

For me, this is terribly off-putting in the sense that these social constructed beliefs about gender roles and attributes feel like caricatures rather than the way real people think of each other. 

It's obvious Jordan understands what he's doing here. In Chapter. . . 16? 17? of The Shadow Rising, Min plays up the whole helpless maiden thing while she's in Tar Valon, acting as Elmindreda. She gives Gawyn and Galad exactly what the first hates to see, and the other believes women to be. 

 

This leads me to believe Jordan creates these caricatures deliberately. My hope is that he'll also break this cycle at some point and use that breaking to develop characters.

 

Am I off base here? Has anyone else found this difficulty in reading the series?

 

It takes some getting used to, for sure.

 

I had to remind myself that I was reading an account of a fictional world, with fictional national/cultural/gender dynamics that at times mirror our own world, while at other times differing substantially from our experiences. And at the core of this fictional world was the idea that men with power broke the world.

[Pembie]

I like the basic idea Rand the dragon either can save the world or destroy it Mar having luck and Perrin being a type of werewolf 

Aiel sedis 

 

But all the politics are very confusing and makes the story very slow In my opinion I would say at this point the series is overhyped definitely liked the sword of truth Eragon much better 

[Asthereal]

On 1/11/2022 at 4:34 AM, Pembie said:

I don’t think I will re read the series I just don’t find that good to even think of doing that 

I will carry on at moment I’m liking the start of winter’s heart with Perrin and Failes stories 

I don’t like the way characters seem to be forgotten about for books though 

Usually Jordan has a reason to not include a character for a book: Perrin not being in Fires of Heaven is because he's helping rebuild Emond's Field, Mat not being in Path of Daggers is because he's recovering from a broken leg, Egwene mostly skips a book because she gives Bryne and his army the month rest they need before launching a certain attack. That sort of thing.

 

I can imagine the gender roles being a frustration, but the main diversion comes from our Emond's Field five, and in Emond's Field society is very much organized that way. The men have the village council, lead by the Mayor, and the women have the women's circle, lead by the Wisdom. As mentioned before, character's opinions about the other gender also tends to be wrong. In WoT, characters are wrong about things all the time, especially about thoughts from other characters. To me, this feels realistic and adds to the immersion.

 

But yeah, if binary views on gender bother you, this somewhat old-fashioned series isn't ideal for you. Except for theorizing, of course. Let's assume the biological sex of a channeler determines whether they can channel saidin or saidar. What would an intersex channeler be able to channel? One or the other randomly? Or both, automatically making the intersex channeler one of the most powerful channelers alive? Fanfic writers, let's go!

[Pembie]

14 hours ago, Asthereal said:

Usually Jordan has a reason to not include a character for a book: Perrin not being in Fires of Heaven is because he's helping rebuild Emond's Field, Mat not being in Path of Daggers is because he's recovering from a broken leg, Egwene mostly skips a book because she gives Bryne and his army the month rest they need before launching a certain attack. That sort of thing.

 

I can imagine the gender roles being a frustration, but the main diversion comes from our Emond's Field five, and in Emond's Field society is very much organized that way. The men have the village council, lead by the Mayor, and the women have the women's circle, lead by the Wisdom. As mentioned before, character's opinions about the other gender also tends to be wrong. In WoT, characters are wrong about things all the time, especially about thoughts from other characters. To me, this feels realistic and adds to the immersion.

 

But yeah, if binary views on gender bother you, this somewhat old-fashioned series isn't ideal for you. Except for theorizing, of course. Let's assume the biological sex of a channeler determines whether they can channel saidin or saidar. What would an intersex channeler be able to channel? One or the other randomly? Or both, automatically making the intersex channeler one of the most powerful channelers alive? Fanfic writers, let's go!

One of the big things I don’t really like about the series missing main characters from the books especially for me that forget points of story 

[Graendals favourite]

To the Original Post, I haven't found this difficulty. I can say that everything gets more complicated down the way, also I guess the binaryism. It's still binaric at the end, and I don't know if I disagree, but things get more complicated. If I say too clearly, Trollocs won't be the only thing to worry about, and I don't mean Myrddraal and Draghkar.

[Pembie]

56 minutes ago, Graendals favourite said:

To the Original Post, I haven't found this difficulty. I can say that everything gets more complicated down the way, also I guess the binaryism. It's still binaric at the end, and I don't know if I disagree, but things get more complicated. If I say too clearly, Trollocs won't be the only thing to worry about, and I don't mean Myrddraal and Draghkar.

More monsters Knife of I’m guessing something happens to someone in the dreamworld I like that part of the world 

[BookLover]

Since I am in the midst of reading book four, so far, I just see young people maturing. As a mature person, I can understand the older characters trying to support the younger main characters by not inhibiting their free will. In the grand scheme, we only have choices not answers. Apologies if a bit too big picture and random. But soooo annoyed with how I remember I was in my late teens/early twenties dealing with more mature folks who I did not understand did NOT have the answers when I was dealing with situations. We must never inhibit a human being's free will, which is a central theme in the books.

[Aan-Alone]

On 12/8/2021 at 4:37 PM, qlorin said:

If you think about this %90 of the population mustnt have the ability to read or write in this story. There is no education system.

From where are you basing this wild claim, that I believe is patently false. I'll give you that the SuperBoys/Girls are naive and immature, but they are far from uneducated. Evidence? They can READ! Mostly everyone can read. Remember how quickly books sell out for peddler's? And how they're highly valued in the Waste?

 

How did all these poor farmers and peasants learn to read? Everyone is informally schooled during childhood. Taught to both read, and write [how one learns to read me thinks], and basic maths. A lot of these 'louts' are shrewd business people, able to haggle and make very good deals for their goods & services. That's rather difficult to accomplish without some education. Not to mention we have examples of Olver being taught.

 

Mat is a good example of someone who didn't apply themselves in their studies. 

 

Apologies. I'm not trying to single you out but your comment 'killed the goat' for me about the misconception of education in the WoT. Please forgive my overwhelming passions. 

[qlorin]

On 4/10/2024 at 7:29 PM, Aan-Alone said:

From where are you basing this wild claim, that I believe is patently false. I'll give you that the SuperBoys/Girls are naive and immature, but they are far from uneducated. Evidence? They can READ! Mostly everyone can read. 

Maybe i exaggerated with the number "90%" but i dont think everybody can read or write. What i said was there is no established education system.  In real world this never worked and most of the people couldn't' read or write without an established system. Yes in WoT universe they are "more educated" than real world examples but its very fundamental reading writing and basic math. They dont even know what country they are from 😄

In the first book we met with inkeepers, ranked soldiers, village counciel members. Not the dirt poor farmers. After first book most of the side characters are lords ladies generals merchants etc...

And our characters are actually important people in their small town.
-Wisdom
-Daughter of mayor
-Son of a successful (probably rich) horse trader
-Apprentice of only blacksmith in town
-Son of an old soldier who is probably most educated person in town.

All of the fathers or masters are in the counciel.  So they are actually the most promising children in town and i think they get some special care for that.
 

On 4/10/2024 at 7:29 PM, Aan-Alone said:

 Remember how quickly books sell out for peddler's? 

Yes but the reason is there is no press. In our world before pressing machines this was the case also. Books were very hard to come by. The supply wasn't enough for even the very small percentage of the population.
 

On 4/10/2024 at 7:29 PM, Aan-Alone said:

And how they're highly valued in the Waste?

Actually this is a great example. They are the most educated group after Aes Sedai. 

They are soldiers/fighters/warriors. Any kind of disciplined fighting force needs more education than just read and write. They get their education in their societies (an established system).
 

On 4/10/2024 at 7:29 PM, Aan-Alone said:

How did all these poor farmers and peasants learn to read? Everyone is informally schooled during childhood. Taught to both read, and write [how one learns to read me thinks], and basic maths.

So we are saying the same thing actually. Only difference is I dont count that as "educated".  Even trollocs have some kind of writing. I dont consider Narg as educated (Narg is smart).
 

On 4/10/2024 at 7:29 PM, Aan-Alone said:

Apologies. I'm not trying to single you out but your comment 'killed the goat' for me about the misconception of education in the WoT. Please forgive my overwhelming passions. 

No problem at all 😄 I love these kind of arguments. It is more fun with passion.

Edited August 4 by qlorin

[Dan G]

For myself, once you understand the tainting of the male aspect of the One Power that leads to the breaking of the world,  the gender divisions we see in WOT are put into a context that makes sense for that world. 

There were , in fact, horrible real life consequences based in gender followed by 3000 years of female channelers holding a position of great power and men still going mad and causing harm. 

This did not have to do with a belief system or discrimination,  it was a fact. 

This is why the tension between genders we see play out in WOT don't bother me as a reader,  rhey are a logical outgrowth of the world RJ created.  

And there is enough nuance in WOT, that it does not cross over into being beaten over the head by an author with an agenda.  RJ just wrote a decent story. 

I really don't know his stance on gender and that comes thru in his writing,  that I still don't know. 

I find that refreshing.