Comparing Wheel of Time to other fantasy adaptations

[Skipp]

24 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

10/10 being LTT level?

I would give 10/10 to Eldrene.  LTT might have turned it up to 11, he did create a mountain after all.

[Spiritweaver1]

2 hours ago, Jaysen Gore said:

While I wouldn't want to spend much time with her, either, I actually really like her as a character - she fulfills the crotchety old woman matriarch role for the AS that Sorilea does for the Aiel. The ones who are so experienced, powerful and respected that they no longer have to suffer the children's dominance games that the others play. They're not nice people, but they're foundational people to cultures.

Hear, Hear.  

[ForsakenPotato]

It seems like there are actually 4 different complaints about that scene which span from relatively minor to relatively major:

 

1. It wasn't obvious to some viewers that Nyn was unconscious but not dead. Partly the makeup but it's also because Egwene behaves like she's dead. It sort of makes sense because Nyn's in such bad shape and there's no one with medical experience nearby to help, so "almost dead" vs. "actually dead" isn't much of a practical distinction from Eg's point of view. It may have the issue of making some viewers (esp. TV-only ones) believe channelers can heal death, which they cannot.

2. Egwene shouldn't be strong enough to heal something like that at this point. Nyneave is supposed to be the one to do stuff like that. This is probably why they had Nyneave heal that whole room earlier in the show -- if Egwene can heal someone close to death with no training, they needed to make Nyneave's healing even more impressive. If everyone is this powered up so early, maybe future big channeling events won't seem as cool.

3. If any show or book brings characters back from the brink of death or implied death too often, we stop believing important characters can die and we start expecting them to be resurrected. The books already do this pretty regularly so do we really need the show to do it even more (assuming the book fake-outs will also take place)?

4. Other book readers don't even think the Egwene and Nyneave should have been channeling in the battle instead of being with Rand at the Eye, not at Tarwin's Gap. I expected changes to that sequence so didn't mind, but understand that others are not happy with it (some because they don't want any plot changes, some because they want Rand to get more screentime, and others because they feel it represents a political agenda where women get to do more cool things compared to men).

 

Everyone's perspective is going to be different, but for me #3 is the worst issue. I wasn't mad about it while watching this scene because the books already made me suspend my belief that main characters will die before the final battles, regardless of how dead they seem. Anyway, just wanted to put that out there because while I am enjoying the show, I understand why it is confusing and people would have preferred a range of different options (from small tweaks in the makeup to big changes in the plot).

 

[Skipp]

2 minutes ago, ForsakenPotato said:

It seems like there are actually 4 different complaints about that scene which span from relatively minor to relatively major:

 

1. It wasn't obvious to some viewers that Nyn was unconscious but not dead. Partly the makeup but it's also because Egwene behaves like she's dead. It sort of makes sense because Nyn's in such bad shape and there's no one with medical experience nearby to help, so "almost dead" vs. "actually dead" isn't much of a practical distinction from Eg's point of view. It may have the issue of making some viewers (esp. TV-only ones) believe channelers can heal death, which they cannot.

2. Egwene shouldn't be strong enough to heal something like that at this point. Nyneave is supposed to be the one to do stuff like that. This is probably why they had Nyneave heal that whole room earlier in the show -- if Egwene can heal someone close to death with no training, they needed to make Nyneave's healing even more impressive. If everyone is this powered up so early, maybe future big channeling events won't seem as cool.

3. If any show or book brings characters back from the brink of death or implied death too often, we stop believing important characters can die and we start expecting them to be resurrected. The books already do this pretty regularly so do we really need the show to do it even more (assuming the book fake-outs will also take place)?

4. Other book readers don't even think the Egwene and Nyneave should have been channeling in the battle instead of being with Rand at the Eye, not at Tarwin's Gap. I expected changes to that sequence so didn't mind, but understand that others are not happy with it (some because they don't want any plot changes, some because they want Rand to get more screentime, and others because they feel it represents a political agenda where women get to do more cool things compared to men).

 

Everyone's perspective is going to be different, but for me #3 is the worst issue. I wasn't mad about it while watching this scene because the books already made me suspend my belief that main characters will die before the final battles, regardless of how dead they seem. Anyway, just wanted to put that out there because while I am enjoying the show, I understand why it is confusing and people would have preferred a range of different options (from small tweaks in the makeup to big changes in the plot).

 

Well said.

 

They really should have had Nynaeve moving slightly, moaning, saying something softly, just something to indicate her state.  Then again we had shots of Loial moving after being stabbed and some people didn't see that.

 

While giving Egwene some skill in healing isn't much of a bother to me just having an extra death fakeout(discounting the one Nynaeve has at the Eye in the book) was really needless.  I would love to know if this was always the plan for the episode or something they added in because they couldn't do something else.  Ultimately it was my least favourite scene in the episode and possibly of the season.

[EmreY]

9 hours ago, Jaysen Gore said:

What was it Caddy did that was so bad?

 

Well, Rand is suffering from a combination of a rather unique form of schizophrenia, plus trauma and paranoia and also probably claustrophobia.  

 

A sympathetic and supportive approach would be the way to go.  Instead Cadsuane's approach is a mix of the worst of "get a grip on yourself, man" and Bedlam lite.  She would irritate any sane person; someone with a rather fragile grip would be driven off the rails.

[Scarloc99]

20 hours ago, CanisNoir said:

 

And let's not forget that Game of Thrones introduced the word "Sexposition" into our lexicon. The nudity was very much an HBO thing, but it's also incorrect to say nobody had a problem with it. 

 

And I agree, I always thought that Faile liked it a little rough and to be yelled at because being able to stand up to that is how she viewed "Strength" and if you didn't push her, you must think of her as being weak. I never saw it as domestic violence. 

 

In the same vein, I do hope they keep the Mat being raped in the show. I thought that part of the books tried to shine a light on a well hidden portion of our culture. It also showed that women in power can abuse that power the same as a man can. I did find it very uncomfortable to read though so I can see why they may take it out.

The Matt scene is alot easier to do seeing as a version of it is already on Netflix, Bridgerton has a full on women raping man scene, in this case forcing him to make her pregnant against his will. It is done really well without being full on graphic. 

[Jaysen Gore]

9 hours ago, EmreY said:

 

Well, Rand is suffering from a combination of a rather unique form of schizophrenia, plus trauma and paranoia and also probably claustrophobia.  

 

A sympathetic and supportive approach would be the way to go.  Instead Cadsuane's approach is a mix of the worst of "get a grip on yourself, man" and Bedlam lite.  She would irritate any sane person; someone with a rather fragile grip would be driven off the rails.

Sorry, not being sympathetic with a nuclear bomb is maybe a poor approach, but this is in no way the same as Tylin raping Mat, or Alannah bonding Rand against his will.

[Deviations]

17 hours ago, Jaysen Gore said:

While I wouldn't want to spend much time with her, either, I actually really like her as a character - she fulfills the crotchety old woman matriarch role for the AS that Sorilea does for the Aiel. The ones who are so experienced, powerful and respected that they no longer have to suffer the children's dominance games that the others play. They're not nice people, but they're foundational people to cultures.

Her heavy handed, purposeful rudeness while demanding manners from others is insufferable.  I love crotchety characters like Lady Violet Crawley of Downton Abbey.

[EmreY]

15 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Sorry, not being sympathetic with a nuclear bomb is maybe a poor approach, but this is in no way the same as Tylin raping Mat, or Alannah bonding Rand against his will.

 

Not tiptoeing around a nuclear bomb is never a good idea, given the potential for disaster, but I agree that isn't the issue here.

 

What I meant to say was that Cadsuane's aim is to make him laugh and cry again (IIRC?) - and proceeds to do this to someone half-insane by what, slapping him, physically and verbally?

 

I also mean to say that the issue here is not to manage the man but his illness.  She goes about the illness in completely the wrong way, and this is where she becomes terrifying.  You cannot bully someone with mental illness into sanity, and if you can bully him into doing what you want, it's still morally objectionable.

 

So she's either a competent bully or the stupidest character in the books, and since she's played up to be the greatest thing since sliced bread, I'll go for the competent bully.

 

 

Edited January 7, 2022 by EmreY

[Gothic Flame]

4 minutes ago, Deviations said:

Her heavy handed, purposeful rudeness while demanding manners from others is insufferable.  I love crotchety characters like Lady Violet Crawley of Downton Abbey.

Tam responded well to her. It knocked her back a bit when he called her out on being no better than a bully in front of everyone.

[Scarloc99]

20 hours ago, EmreY said:

 

That is now a Disney+ property, apparently!!

 

 

I can't see the show showing things to be that different, but OK.

 

 

I think what is important here is that it is established that a) he loves and b) he respects.

 

 

He's shown to be opinionated enough, IMO.

Am reading the EOTW right now and in that there is a very definite sense that he is in love with her and had plans for a future with her. At least that is how I have always read it. The story of Rand and Egwene I always saw as a tragic love story, had none of the events happened then the 2 of them would have married each other. But the wheel determined they would end up opposite to each other. In many ways replicating the battle Lewis had with the omen channellers. 

[Gothic Flame]

5 minutes ago, EmreY said:

I also mean to say that the issue here is not to manage the man but his illness.  She goes about the illness in completely the wrong way, and this is where she becomes terrifying.  Either that or the stupidest character in the books.

 

That's why she partners up with Sorilea.

Didn't go so well...but I guess that's the reality check...in so far as such can be written without it all going off the rails. (enter the once thought dead Moiraine)

 

[Deviations]

4 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Tam responded well to her. It knocked her back a bit when he called her out on being no better than a bully in front of everyone.

I love that scene.

[EmreY]

But I do want Cadsuane in the TV series, if only for the ultimate polite smackdown. ?

[EmreY]

5 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

 

That's why she partners up with Sorilea.

Didn't go so well...but I guess that's the reality check...in so far as such can be written without it all going off the rails. (enter the once thought dead Moiraine)

 

 

Indeed, as Rand says, she achieves the aim (though not her aim) without meaning to.

[Scarloc99]

19 hours ago, ashi said:

Accelerated his development completely off the road and over a cliff, maybe. (Sorry, am not fond of this at all - and it does not inspire me with confidence that they have a very deep understanding of his character.)

 

To quote myself quoting Jordan above:

 

 

Yes, Perrin struggles with violence and with his own strength. But making his struggle stem from a deep trauma from killing his own wife drastically reduces the moral significance of that struggle:

 

Refraining from violence because of fear (edit: and guilt) rooted in trauma is not the same as refraining from violence because of the ethical question of whether the violence is right or not, whether the violence makes you more evil or not.

 

Relating to the Way of the Leaf as a means of protecting your ego from having to kill your wife again, is not the same as relating to it as a beautiful but, in Perrin's view, too idealistic philosophy that he has to let go of [though he wishes the world was different enough to support it] - not because he has overcome his wife-killing trauma, but because he finds an answer to Jordan's question above.

ok however in a TV show where you have very limited TV time to get across the core ideas of storytelling "Subtle" very rarely lands with an audience. Much of the understanding of Perrin is from inner onologue and thinking. RJ does alot of that, telling us what a character is thinking. in a TV show you can't do that so you have to present situations that show the audience what a characters motivations are. 

You either have Perrin do something so awful that the audience understand instantly what he is about (and remember a TV audience literally have maybe mins of screen time to learn who perrin is before the town is attacked). Or you have him deliver long menadering monologues about he he feels angry and when he has an axe he is worried he will hurt someone. 

now instead the moment when he hurls the Axe away saying all he does with an axe is destroy and with a hammer he can create, that moment can be fully understood because the viewer gets that he killed someone close to him with an axe, in a moment of frenzy. 

[Scarloc99]

19 hours ago, CanisNoir said:

 

While I don't see the Fridging as being the Perrin Character Killer you do, I do think it was a bad choice to make it his wife, and this is the best argument I've heard expressing why I felt it was a bad choice.

 

Well said.

In an idea world it would not have been a wife, but, given Rafe had such limited time to tell the story, I understand for a non book reading audience it is easy to understand instinctively a relationship between husband and wife and the impact it would have killing your wife. Have him kill anyone else you have to dedicate time to scenes explaining who that person is to Perrin, why they are important and what the relationship is just so the audience understands why it affects him so much when he kills that person. 

[Scarloc99]

15 hours ago, ForsakenPotato said:

It seems like there are actually 4 different complaints about that scene which span from relatively minor to relatively major:

 

1. It wasn't obvious to some viewers that Nyn was unconscious but not dead. Partly the makeup but it's also because Egwene behaves like she's dead. It sort of makes sense because Nyn's in such bad shape and there's no one with medical experience nearby to help, so "almost dead" vs. "actually dead" isn't much of a practical distinction from Eg's point of view. It may have the issue of making some viewers (esp. TV-only ones) believe channelers can heal death, which they cannot.

2. Egwene shouldn't be strong enough to heal something like that at this point. Nyneave is supposed to be the one to do stuff like that. This is probably why they had Nyneave heal that whole room earlier in the show -- if Egwene can heal someone close to death with no training, they needed to make Nyneave's healing even more impressive. If everyone is this powered up so early, maybe future big channeling events won't seem as cool.

3. If any show or book brings characters back from the brink of death or implied death too often, we stop believing important characters can die and we start expecting them to be resurrected. The books already do this pretty regularly so do we really need the show to do it even more (assuming the book fake-outs will also take place)?

4. Other book readers don't even think the Egwene and Nyneave should have been channeling in the battle instead of being with Rand at the Eye, not at Tarwin's Gap. I expected changes to that sequence so didn't mind, but understand that others are not happy with it (some because they don't want any plot changes, some because they want Rand to get more screentime, and others because they feel it represents a political agenda where women get to do more cool things compared to men).

 

Everyone's perspective is going to be different, but for me #3 is the worst issue. I wasn't mad about it while watching this scene because the books already made me suspend my belief that main characters will die before the final battles, regardless of how dead they seem. Anyway, just wanted to put that out there because while I am enjoying the show, I understand why it is confusing and people would have preferred a range of different options (from small tweaks in the makeup to big changes in the plot).

 

My biggest issue with this was that in making Egwene now able to be a master healer we are at risk of her and Nyn effectively being the same. In the Books Nyn is a master healer, that is why she helps Rand both cleanse the taint and seal the bore, because she is needed to help heal the power/weave. Egwene is a far more aggressive and her powers are better able to destroy and fight, hence she leads the battle. 

by presenting an idea that Egwene can also heal, you stop Nyn being that unique talent. I would have much preferred Egwene to have fallen and had Nyn heal her. 

[Scarloc99]

9 hours ago, EmreY said:

 

Well, Rand is suffering from a combination of a rather unique form of schizophrenia, plus trauma and paranoia and also probably claustrophobia.  

 

A sympathetic and supportive approach would be the way to go.  Instead Cadsuane's approach is a mix of the worst of "get a grip on yourself, man" and Bedlam lite.  She would irritate any sane person; someone with a rather fragile grip would be driven off the rails.

You can also see WOT of being of it's age, Rand is suffering from a series of mental health conditions which, even in the 90's, where treated as somethig to get over or medicate rather then treated with a gentle hand. I actually think the taint and "voices" will be treated very differently in the TV show in light of changes to the thoughts around mental health. 

[fra85uk]

6 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

In an idea world it would not have been a wife, but, given Rafe had such limited time to tell the story, I understand for a non book reading audience it is easy to understand instinctively a relationship between husband and wife and the impact it would have killing your wife. Have him kill anyone else you have to dedicate time to scenes explaining who that person is to Perrin, why they are important and what the relationship is just so the audience understands why it affects him so much when he kills that person. 

 

I hate the wife fridging. Even worse, if it's Perrin himself killing her. I don't see how can you recover from that (and actually the show in not portraying it well either, soo...)

But  viable compromise, if really really you want the wife-fridging could have been:

Instead of killing his wife, he could have gone berserk-frenzy and ignoring the wife in danger and, as a result of this, the wife ends killed because he did not help her. You still will live in  huge remorse and audience understands that he will have problems to deal with his violent side but at least is not him killing her, which i think is too much.

[fra85uk]

3 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

My biggest issue with this was that in making Egwene now able to be a master healer we are at risk of her and Nyn effectively being the same. In the Books Nyn is a master healer, that is why she helps Rand both cleanse the taint and seal the bore, because she is needed to help heal the power/weave. Egwene is a far more aggressive and her powers are better able to destroy and fight, hence she leads the battle. 

by presenting an idea that Egwene can also heal, you stop Nyn being that unique talent. I would have much preferred Egwene to have fallen and had Nyn heal her. 

But they already did for Nyn in ep4 and it is clear that they wanted to divide big moments (among the female characters of course). That should tell you how much they care about character unique skills from the books. 

[Scarloc99]

1 minute ago, fra85uk said:

 

I hate the wife fridging. Even worse, if it's Perrin himself killing her. I don't see how can you recover from that (and actually the show in not portraying it well either, soo...)

But  viable compromise, if really really you want the wife-fridging could have been:

Instead of killing his wife, he could have gone berserk-frenzy and ignoring the wife in danger and, as a result of this, the wife ends killed because he did not help her. You still will live in  huge remorse and audience understands that he will have problems to deal with his violent side but at least is not him killing her, which i think is too much.

I wasn't happy with it, but I do understand the arguments for it. I am pleased to see that the "she must be a darkfriend, or taken over by Ishy" did not pan out. 

[Skipp]

12 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

In an idea world it would not have been a wife, but, given Rafe had such limited time to tell the story, I understand for a non book reading audience it is easy to understand instinctively a relationship between husband and wife and the impact it would have killing your wife. Have him kill anyone else you have to dedicate time to scenes explaining who that person is to Perrin, why they are important and what the relationship is just so the audience understands why it affects him so much when he kills that person. 

Very much agreed, but I feel they made the mistep of muddying the waters of that by amplifing his feeling for Egwene.

[Scarloc99]

Just now, fra85uk said:

But they already did for Nyn in ep4 and it is clear that they wanted to divide big moments (among the female characters of course). That should tell you how much they care about character unique skills from the books. 

I know she already healed but it does feel like they are going for all Aes Sedai can do all the things which is a big concern of mine, we will have to wait and see until season 2 if he starts explaining more about the rules for using the power. 

[fra85uk]

Just now, Sir_Charrid said:

I wasn't happy with it, but I do understand the arguments for it. I am pleased to see that the "she must be a darkfriend, or taken over by Ishy" did not pan out. 

I can understand the argument of giving Perrin some initial shock to replace his internal monologues but that was too much.