Moridin, Rand, and the end of the story

[Helz]

Its been a few years but I did read the series twice and have a little going on in my mind. This is undoubtedly my favorite story but some things just do not add up.

 

A big part of it is Moridin. He is suppose to be Rand from another time line that became forsaken yet early in the series Rand lives all of his lives and directly claims he never gave into the dark one in any life. Sure that is minor but the physical tie between the two also does not make sense. If Rand could cut his hand hurting Moridin why didn't killing him in the great hunt also harm Rand?

 

Then there is the Shi Tan. A creature from outside of the pattern that is suppose to be evil incarnate. But Padan Fain combines 2 other kinds of evil suggesting Shi Tan is not evil itself but simply 'something evil.' Yet the ending has Rand recognizing that eliminating Shi Tan from existence would also remove evil from existence making everything morally hollow (in line with the philosophy that you can not have an up without down in terms of good and evil.) This bothered me simply because of how well thought out the entire world was and how poorly that ending fit. If the entire plot line of padan faign is removed its an excellent ending to the story but with it the end makes no sense especially if we consider the potential implications of Rand in the end.

 

So when Rand finally comes to understand himself at the near cost of reality itself his mere existence weighs on the pattern in opposition to Shi Tan. Trees grow apples and babys are born reflecting a 'balance' leaning back towards life. But what should we take from the end of the story where he is in Moridins body but cant channel.. ...yet he can light his pipe.. This hints that he may actually be the creator as a balance to the dark one which 100% balances the story with the exception of..................................

 

Life is short. I love this story and I hope you will help me understand the things I dont in this world.

[wotfan4472]

Moridin is not an alternate Rand.

He is in fact Ishamael returned to life, because the Dark One needed him to control the other Forsaken.

Considering what happened to Asmodean, Rahvin and Lanfear, he was desperately needed.

I mean, Ishamael was gone for a few months and the Dark One was losing Forsaken left right and centre, and to events that threatened to compromise his efforts.

Once Moridin showed up, the Shadow gained advantages with each step. They were still losing allies, but no longer having the other efforts suffer from those losses like earlier. 

[Sabio]

Ishy and LTT are tied together, they get spun out sort of as a team to oppose one another.  Moridin is just Ishy's soul stuffed in another body.  Ishy was the one guy the DO could trust to keep the Chosen on the same path and not trying to kill one another, I always see him as Eisenhower.  He might not of been the best general, but he could keep all the different personalities and rivalries mostly in check and get them working together.

 

I assume Rand couldn't channel at the end because he had burnt himself out.  He knew he was using so much power it would kill him, and nothing had a buffer to prevent killing or burning himself out.  So I assume he would burn himself out.

 

The end made sense, because the series is about free will,  A person can choose to be good or bad, if you have no choice in the matter if you are forced to be good then you are basiclly a slave.  Forcing everyone to be "good" would be no different than the DO remaking the wheel and forcing everyone to be a certain way. Which is why few souls are selected for specific purposes.  If the forsaken were the same souls every spinning, then they have no free will.  So next time 99% of the heroes and villians will be different souls.  Only Ishy and LTT will be guaranteed to be there.

 

Padan Fain is like Agent Smith from the Matrix.

[Helz]

I might be misunderstanding Moridin. I thought he was killed in the end of the great hunt and brought back to life but then the hand stabbing reflected some tie between them which did not fit.

 

15 hours ago, Sabio said:

The end made sense, because the series is about free will,  A person can choose to be good or bad, if you have no choice in the matter if you are forced to be good then you are basiclly a slave. 

This is exactly my point. If the Dark One was evil itself this would make sense. To eliminate evil would be to eliminate the spectrum of good/evil and remove free will. But the Dark One was not evil itself and simply 'something evil.' Other kinds of evil exist so Rand coulda killed the Dark One without removing the existence of evil because of Fains story line. It does not make sense.

 

Then there is Rand lighting his pipe at the end. He can't channel but he simply wills a fire into existence. To me I see this as suggesting he is actually the creator. Maybe you can say he messed with the threads of reality and no longer weaves the source but instead can weave the pattern itself but that little paragraph has huge implications to the nature of what Rand is and how reality itself works within that world.

 

I also think a bit about what it means for the creation of evil in Shadar Logoth a good bit. Underlying evil must exist for some kinda game of houses to evolve into true evil and consume an entire city.

[DaddyFinn]

This could give some explanations.

 

https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Moridin

 

 

[Agitel]

Moridin is Ishmael's soul forced into a new body by the Dark One. Ishamael and Lews Therin are different souls. Ishamael is not and has never been the Dragon. Someone above mentioned that Ishamael is tied to the Dragon to repeat the same fight over and over. Ishamael says that, but it's not necessarily true.

 

Ishamael/Moridin and Rand become linked in book seven when Rand is chasing Sammael through Shadar Logoth. Both Moridin and Rand use balefire, and their balefire shots connect at one point. Balefire canceling out balefire... an after effect was a strange spiritual and physical link between Moridin and Rand, which Rand takes advantage of at the end of the series. (We don't get a ton of detail, but we also know Rand asked the Finn's in the Red Arch in Tear how he could survive Tarmon Gai'don, and we could surmise they gave him some riddled answer that involved this strange link.)

 

The evil of Shadar Logoth might not be a new evil, but the Dark One's evil pushed out of phase with itself. There's more to puzzle out there that I don't have time on.

[Sabio]

On 11/28/2021 at 1:39 AM, Helz said:

I might be misunderstanding Moridin. I thought he was killed in the end of the great hunt and brought back to life but then the hand stabbing reflected some tie between them which did not fit.

 

This is exactly my point. If the Dark One was evil itself this would make sense. To eliminate evil would be to eliminate the spectrum of good/evil and remove free will. But the Dark One was not evil itself and simply 'something evil.' Other kinds of evil exist so Rand coulda killed the Dark One without removing the existence of evil because of Fains story line. It does not make sense.

 

Then there is Rand lighting his pipe at the end. He can't channel but he simply wills a fire into existence. To me I see this as suggesting he is actually the creator. Maybe you can say he messed with the threads of reality and no longer weaves the source but instead can weave the pattern itself but that little paragraph has huge implications to the nature of what Rand is and how reality itself works within that world.

 

I also think a bit about what it means for the creation of evil in Shadar Logoth a good bit. Underlying evil must exist for some kinda game of houses to evolve into true evil and consume an entire city.

Other evil only existed because of the DO, without the DO there would of been no Black Wind, no Shadar Logoth.  Without the DO there would of been no need for Aridhol to turn itself into Shadar Logoth.  The corruption of the ways and creation of the Black wind was caused by using the tainted male half to help create the ways.  Without the DO there would of been none of that.

 

 

Edited November 29, 2021 by Sabio

[Sabio]

Rj did confirm that LTT and Ishy were like Birgitte and Gaidal, two souls linked.

[KakitaOCU]

For what it's worth, I assumed Shaisam/Fain/Mordeth/Mashadar was a failsafe that ended up not being needed and so Mat got yanked in to snuff it.

Infinite turnings of the wheel, infinite times The Dragon stood with the DO held in a crushing grip and not ONCE did the dragon ever decide it would be worth the changes to eliminate the pain.  That's an improbability bordering on impossibility.

What happens if The Dragon kills the DO?  Well, there's a brand "new" evil right outside the bore with significant power.  It rolls into the gaping vacuum the Dragon inadvertently leaves behind.  The Dragon has to seal the bore with or without the DO because otherwise it's a break in the pattern.  Voiloi, new DO for the next time around.

[qlorin]

On 11/27/2021 at 5:04 AM, Helz said:

A big part of it is Moridin. He is suppose to be Rand from another time line that became forsaken

Nope. They are linked together like Brigitta and Gaidal Cain. Elan/Ishamael/Moridin never been dragon or any version of dragon.
 

 

On 11/27/2021 at 5:04 AM, Helz said:

Yet the ending has Rand recognizing that eliminating Shi Tan from existence would also remove evil from existence making everything morally hollow

There is two types of evil. One is basicly DO which directly causes taint on saidin and Black wind in the ways. The other one is Shadar Logath/Mordeth.

There is two possiblities here. First possiblity , Shadar Logath/Mordeth type evil not directly but undirectly still caused by DO.  Second possibility , reailty shown to Rand in the end just lies and killing DO will not eliminates evil from the world. Lets be honest here DO is "the father of lies"...

 

On 11/27/2021 at 5:04 AM, Helz said:

If the entire plot line of padan faign is removed its an excellent ending to the story

I read the books as they come. When internet begin to spread there were a lot of theories about ending of the books. One of the theories was this duality in the world. Everything has two parts and when you combine them you get much powerful maybe even different thing out of them. (saidin/saidar for example). Spesific point about this theory was DO and Mordeth was two parts of evil beacuse of that Rand can clean saidin they just canceled out each other. And in order to close to bore you need Mordeth at the end he would be some part of the last battle to seal the bore. 

Obviously this didnt happened but I always loved that idea.

 

On 11/27/2021 at 5:04 AM, Helz said:

But what should we take from the end of the story where he is in Moridins body but cant channel.. ...yet he can light his pipe.. This hints that he may actually be the creator as a balance to the dark one

 

On 11/27/2021 at 6:40 PM, Sabio said:

I assume Rand couldn't channel at the end because he had burnt himself out.

In short. Saidin and Saidar is a dual If you combine saidin and saidar you get "One Power" which is much more greater than both of them. "One Power" have its counterpart which is "True Power". If you combine them you get "Will Power". In the end Rand wasnt burnt out he just combined all those powers and he could use unbroken "Will Power". He just willed the pipe to lit and it happened. I never get that implied Creator vibe from that scene. I have a lot of theories about nature of "Creator" and "DO". You can check my comment in "Nature of Good, Evil, and Balance in the Wheel of Time"  topic at 3rd page i think...

 

On 11/30/2021 at 10:09 PM, KakitaOCU said:

Infinite turnings of the wheel, infinite times The Dragon stood with the DO held in a crushing grip and not ONCE did the dragon ever decide it would be worth the changes to eliminate the pain.  That's an improbability bordering on impossibility.

This asumes anybody have free will in the stories. LTT died created Dragonmount so Rand can born on it. Ishamel lead Troloc wars and destreoyed Manetheren so Rand can be raised in there. Aiel forced into the three fold land created Rhuidiean So Rand can find it unite them and use them. Callandor , Eye of the world, Stone of Tear all of those created for Rand to find. There are prophecies must come true. There are Min's visions can not be changed. There are absolute truths Aelfinns says other side of the archway. 

As far as i understand there is some power forcing these events and many more. There is no free will in the end. Dragon never killed or never will be killing DO because of this.

These are not absolute facts just my opinions.

Edited December 6, 2021 by qlorin

[KakitaOCU]

13 hours ago, qlorin said:

As far as i understand there is some power forcing these events and many more. There is no free will in the end. Dragon never killed or never will be killing DO because of this.
 

The only flaw there is a lovely philosophical debate.  Do we just think we have free will or do we?  Each turning of the wheel is different even if key notes are the same.  Beyond that, the entire point of NOT killing the DO is that killing the DO takes away a level of free will.

Kind of a hard to set up an ending that's basically saying "You have to allow a full range of choice to exist or we might as well have none" and then also say "By the way, the story is a program that can never variate and no one has free will."  The two concepts conflict.

[qlorin]

9 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

Kind of a hard to set up an ending that's basically saying "You have to allow a full range of choice to exist or we might as well have none" and then also say "By the way, the story is a program that can never variate and no one has free will."  The two concepts conflict.

The problem is most of the population even in our world dont think about this stuff. In WoT world most of the characters are uneducated farmers or soldiers. Even most of the nobles only get in to politics. There is no higher learning. In whole series there are only 2 philosophers. Herid Fel and Elan Morin. First one thinks its a cycle and there is no free will the other thinks there is a free will and cycle will be broken and shadow will win.

Except for those two charectes nobody will care or even think about this stuff. They presume they have free will and move on with their life. This is "the Illusıon of free will".

If this is an infinite loop and there is free will. mathematically , in some point DO must killed by dragon. Or like Elan Morin believes DO must win and broke the wheel. Both scenerios never happened in an infinite loop.Because of that there is no free will at least in these kind of tremendous events.

Actually Rand couldnt change even minor events. He tried to change some of Min's visions and he failed. I think Rand in an Illusion of free will because weird stuff happens around him.

I think Herid Fel was right. The mathematical evidence and inability of the most powerfull Ta'veren ever shows that.

Elan Morin had to learn Mathematics before changing sides. :)))

Last evidence. From start of the book series till the end there is one sentence always comes up and shows that nobody have free will. There is only one will. 

"Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills" 

[Andra]

A few things mentioned by others but need some further exploration.

1: Moridin is Ishamael resurrected into another body.

2: The physical connection between Rand and Moridin didn't exist yet at Falme, so injuring one didn't directly affect the other.  The connection was made at Shadar Logoth when both used Balefire against Mashadar.  And, like the Gostbusters did, "crossed the streams."

3: Specifically, the connection was made because while Rand was channeling Saidin, Moridin was using the True Power.  The connection eventually allowed Rand to use the True Power himself, once he figured out what it was.

4: At the end, when they switched bodies, Rand didn't light his pipe with either the One Power or the True Power, since his body had been burned out in the process.  He used his unique ability as uber-ta'veren to directly alter the pattern.  It's an ability the story alluded to when threatening Cadsuane, as well as when he made plants grow.

5: As Moiraine explains when telling the story of Aridhol/Shadar Logoth, Mashadar is evil that men made, rather than what came from Shai'tan.

 

One thing to clarify about the nature of evil in Jordan's world - Light and Shadow are used in the same way yin and yang are in Asian philosophies.  As both opposite and complementary forces.  Most dichotomies (like male and female, or fire and ice) can be represented by them without moralizing. 

"Good" and "Evil" are value judgments applied to them by humans who seek simplistic explanations.  But aren't necessarily direct parallels.

 

Unlike good and evil, the forces that drive the universe require both - and the tension between them - to have movement and life.

[wotfan4472]

On 12/1/2021 at 8:09 AM, KakitaOCU said:

For what it's worth, I assumed Shaisam/Fain/Mordeth/Mashadar was a failsafe that ended up not being needed and so Mat got yanked in to snuff it.

Infinite turnings of the wheel, infinite times The Dragon stood with the DO held in a crushing grip and not ONCE did the dragon ever decide it would be worth the changes to eliminate the pain.  That's an improbability bordering on impossibility.

What happens if The Dragon kills the DO?  Well, there's a brand "new" evil right outside the bore with significant power.  It rolls into the gaping vacuum the Dragon inadvertently leaves behind.  The Dragon has to seal the bore with or without the DO because otherwise it's a break in the pattern.  Voiloi, new DO for the next time around.

Yes, Fain does serve the failsafe purpose. The thing is, if Rand did that, as in killed the Dark One, his eternal purpose is ended. I get the sense, that Mat takes Rand's place as Champion, since Fain has a totally different power, and so the One Power is no longer essential to the core conflict, since Mashadar cannot be fully destroyed without the Choedan Kal, and only if that location is the only place it exists. Mat pretty much ending the threat shows that Fain would always have that weakness.

 

Plus, if Mat did not kill Fain, Perrin would have.

 

It all comes down to one person and his choices having vast impact on the world and the people around him. Because, at the end of the story, Rand could have killed the Dark One, he chose not too. That choice is unique in Fantasy, since all the other big foes get destroyed, and the characters that fight their enemies have only the choice of starting the journey. Rand got to choose to start, and also got to choose how his final fight ended.

Here, and only here, does that get a fresh take. 30 years after the books started, that outcome from that choice still seems fresh.

It is the main reason I still read the books.

[Jaysen Gore]

Speaking to the more philosophical aspects, since the facts of the novels have been addressed.

 

In order for there to be free will, there has to be the ability for people to choose to work against the Creator, or to not believe in One at all.

 

In the RJ universe, that freedom of choice is enabled by the introduction of the Dark One, a force from outside the pattern that shows people that it's possible to rebel against the pattern itself. To maintain the pattern, the wheel uses the bound souls of the Horn to create the artistic themes and mythology of the age, and Ta'veren to re-adjust sections of the pattern to maintain the design while still responding to the choices of individual people the pattern represents. In a very real way, the Ta'veren and Heroes are similar to Christian angels, agents of the Creator's will, with little personal freedom. They are slaves to Fate, so everyone else doesn't have to be. Their only blessing is they don't know how repetitive their lives are while they are ensouled within the pattern. We don't know where the DO comes from, but similar to the Christian Lucifer, the DO may also be a Creation, serving exactly as the Creator intended all along

 

In Guy Kay's first Trilogy, he uses a very similar motif of the Creator weaving out creation as a Tapestry. In his case, the Creator's desire to give his creations free will leads to the introduction of a completely random element to the Pattern which the Creator chose not to control. That randomness allows people to choose for themselves within their own lives, but it also means the Creator's vision is no longer sacrosanct and inviolate. Which meant that things could enter reality from beyond the Tapestry itself, and a Dark One came to be.

 

In all cases, in order for there to be free will, the Creator must once and truly cede omnipotence to his creations. And once the Creator ceases - by choice or by limit - to be omnipotent, he/she/it ceases to be God. Still the Creator, absolutely, but without the freedom to act as he/she/it desires, they are less powerful than the basest mortal soul, because they cannot impact the world by acting upon it.

 

My personal thought is that the Pattern "knew" which decision Rand would make before Rand did;  Had he been the kind of man who would have killed the DO, or joined him, he never would have reached Shayol Ghul in the way he did, and the pattern would have adjusted. Maybe with Logain replacing Rand in the closure if he turned, and Mordeth replacing the DO if he killed Him. 

[Jaysen Gore]

On 12/16/2021 at 9:36 PM, Andra said:

<snip>

One thing to clarify about the nature of evil in Jordan's world - Light and Shadow are used in the same way yin and yang are in Asian philosophies.  As both opposite and complementary forces.  Most dichotomies (like male and female, or fire and ice) can be represented by them without moralizing. 

"Good" and "Evil" are value judgments applied to them by humans who seek simplistic explanations.  But aren't necessarily direct parallels.

"Good and Evil? That's a tough one. I prefer Us and Them. It lets me strip away all the extraneous stuff and get down to cases" - Belgarath the Sorcerer

[VooDooNut]

I agree with a lot of this, Jaysen. I think the line "imprisoned in Shayol Ghul at the moment of creation by the Creator" seems to imply that it was a purposeful choice by the Creator to even allow the Dark One to exist in reality, yet contained.

 

Taking a big step back, from a universal perspective, the Wheel could really just be the construct of a god. A plaything or an experiment. For that matter, it might just be a game between the Creator and the Dark One, or some sort of perpetual energy machine. The cyclical nature of Randland is a fascinating part of the series.

Edited December 19, 2021 by VooDooNut
quote error, oh well

[Jaysen Gore]

1 minute ago, VooDooNut said:

I agree with a lot of this, Jaysen. I think the line "imprisoned in Shayol Ghul at the moment of creation by the Creator" seems to imply that it was a purposeful choice by the Creator to even allow the Dark One to exist in reality, yet contained.

 

Taking a big step back, from a universal perspective, the Wheel could really just be the construct of a god. A plaything or an experiment. For that matter, it might just be a game between the Creator and the Dark One, or some sort of perpetual energy machine. The cyclical nature of Randland is a fascinating part of the series.

It doesn't need to be a construct of a "God". It could be a construct of flawed AI using it to control the humans they breed as an energy source, giving them the mental illusion of choice, and occasionally using a New Chosen One (or NEO) to reset the pattern of the age when things threaten to destabilize too far. Seriously.

 

In the same way the Big Bang Theory is annoying because all it does is move the creation moment and act outside of time, any cyclical model of reincarnation has the same problem - At some point in time, some thing create the wheel, and started it spinning for the very first time. They may not have touched it since, but some Creator set up the rules of the game.

 

Some Philosopher once said I don't know if I exist, but I choose to act as if I do. Any thing else is tail chasing

[VooDooNut]

Oh I'm totally on board with it not being a deity. Count me in. ? The lack of a "god" is far more likely anyway.

[Jaysen Gore]

2 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

Oh I'm totally on board with it not being a deity. Count me in. ? The lack of a "god" is far more likely anyway.

Except in Randland, we know there is a Creator. He/She/It speaks to the DO in front of Rand in all caps in book 1. We won't get that in the TV series tho.

 

Any other reality is subject to personal interpretation and opinion, and not something I care to debate. But seeing as how "more likely" isn't enough to settle a criminal case, let alone the question of God's existence, I try to keep an open mind...

 

[VooDooNut]

Definitely. That's what I love about this series, lots of room for imagination.

[Scarloc99]

On 12/19/2021 at 5:37 AM, Jaysen Gore said:

Except in Randland, we know there is a Creator. He/She/It speaks to the DO in front of Rand in all caps in book 1. We won't get that in the TV series tho.

 

Any other reality is subject to personal interpretation and opinion, and not something I care to debate. But seeing as how "more likely" isn't enough to settle a criminal case, let alone the question of God's existence, I try to keep an open mind...

 

I like to think it is the same creator as in the   Chronicles of Thomas covenant, he just shifts from IP to IP as needed ? 

[Jaysen Gore]

2 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I like to think it is the same creator as in the   Chronicles of Thomas covenant, he just shifts from IP to IP as needed ? 

There is but one God Allanon, and Moridin is his prophet? Sounds iffy to me...

[Kat_152]

On 11/26/2021 at 9:04 PM, Helz said:

But what should we take from the end of the story where he is in Moridins body but cant channel.. ...yet he can light his pipe..

Do you remember the visions Aviendha had when she went to Rhuidean?  If I remember correctly, she had children, and they had always been able to channel, they held the power perpetually and only had to think of something to do it.  I took rand not being able to channel, but being able to light his pipe with a thought as something the same as, or similar to that.  

 

But I could be remembering this completely wrong, in which case, disregard everything I have said.

[KakitaOCU]

On 1/2/2022 at 2:57 PM, Kat_152 said:

Do you remember the visions Aviendha had when she went to Rhuidean?  If I remember correctly, she had children, and they had always been able to channel, they held the power perpetually and only had to think of something to do it.  I took rand not being able to channel, but being able to light his pipe with a thought as something the same as, or similar to that.  

 

But I could be remembering this completely wrong, in which case, disregard everything I have said.

I could see it being that way or not.  I could also see it as Aviendha's children are with Morridin!Rand  and his unique nature is what leads to the children being that way.