The Gender of the Dragon

[DojoToad]

11 minutes ago, TheMountain said:

 

I can suspend my disbelief with magic, trollocs, and Fades, as long as everything is internally consistent within the story. I have a really hard time with blatant inconsistencies and "suspension of logic" though. I tend to stop watching shows that do this too much... but as a WoT fan, I will struggle past it.

 

To me, this is clearly a case where everything was NOT "fully thought through," to put it in the words of Sarah lol.

For real.  I've turned off plenty of movies and shows due to the producers, writers, or whomever pushing events or dialogue that breaks the rules of their own universe.  Easy enough to turn away with little investment, much harder in this case.

[TheDreadReader]

22 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

Honestly I’m thinking they just put it in there in order to justify Moiraine turning up in the Two Rivers, assuming they’ve definitely removed the part of Gitara’s foretelling that predicted the birth specifically on Dragonmount.

 

Personally, I don't really understand why it so many think that they've removed the Dragonmount criteria.   They may not have clearly included it but they also haven't explicitly excluded it. 

 

 

 

22 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

It’s a line that I find very frustrating as a reader because it makes no sense, but for tv viewers it’s meaningless because they don’t bother explaining what a Ta’verren is, and by the time it will be explained most people won’t be thinking back to that line and wondering about the inconsistency. 

 

From the non-reader reactions that I have seen, I haven't seen anyone mention this specific line as a problem.   I have heard complaints about the lack of explanations about things in a general sense.  Perhaps, we highlight it because we understand how complicated that concept can be.

 

 

[AshennaSedai]

Just now, TheDreadReader said:

From the non-reader reactions that I have seen, I haven't seen anyone mention this specific line as a problem.   I have heard complaints about the lack of explanations about things in a general sense.  Perhaps, we highlight it because we understand how complicated that concept can be.

 

And even as a semi-reader, I personally didn't find it to be an issue. There are a lot of things in the books that are unnecessarily gendered. The idea that the ta'veren were only the boys for one. I get that male channelers were the ones to sense female ta'veren and vice versa in the books but in today's society and one where we're all learning that gender in our world isn't binary, to have so much of everything be based in binary gender feels weird. Some of it (saidar and saidin for example) is fine as it keeps the integrity of the world but this is absolutely not a confusing change for me considering how the real world has progressed in knowledge and how far we still have to go.

[ForsakenPotato]

I generally agree that Egwene doesn't need the Taveren boost and is pretty proactive about making her own way...except for the scene when she is made Amyrlin. I remember thinking that was some Rand-level plot magic when I was reading it. Her dreaming ability also always struck me as kinda similar to Perrin and the wolves and Mat's luck.

I guess I can go either way, I see arguments that others have already highlighted for why it doesn't make sense and those seem legit, but if there were another Taveren among the EF squad I think she makes a lot of sense.

[MasterAblar]

10 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

Personally, I don't really understand why it so many think that they've removed the Dragonmount criteria.   They may not have clearly included it but they also haven't explicitly excluded it. 

 

 

 

 

From the non-reader reactions that I have seen, I haven't seen anyone mention this specific line as a problem.   I have heard complaints about the lack of explanations about things in a general sense.  Perhaps, we highlight it because we understand how complicated that concept can be.

 

 

I mean Moiraine seems to pretty clearly state they don’t know where the DR was born but maybe they’ll retcon it.

As for non readers I agree it wouldn’t bother them because they don’t know what it means. At most they’d be confused at not having the term explained.

[MasterAblar]

10 minutes ago, AshennaSedai said:

 I get that male channelers were the ones to sense female ta'veren and vice versa in the books but in today's society and one where we're all learning that gender in our world isn't binary, to have so much of everything be based in binary gender feels weird.

 

 

Not sure what you mean by the 1st part there? There aren’t any female ta’verren in the scope of the books and the only who can sense ta’verren are Logain, Siuan, and I belive Nicola. Were yiu refencing something else or am I missing something?

Edited November 23, 2021 by MasterAblar

[Agitel]

1 minute ago, ForsakenPotato said:

I generally agree that Egwene doesn't need the Taveren boost and is pretty proactive about making her own way...except for the scene when she is made Amyrlin. I remember thinking that was some Rand-level plot magic when I was reading it. Her dreaming ability also always struck me as kinda similar to Perrin and the wolves and Mat's luck.

I guess I can go either way, I see arguments that others have already highlighted for why it doesn't make sense and those seem legit, but if there were another Taveren among the EF squad I think she makes a lot of sense.

 

The Egwene selection for Amyrlin made sense to me.

• The Tower is divided, the Salidar Aes Sedai want Rand to side with them, she grew up with Rand. But also...
• She is young, Accepted, and the Hall and Sheriam's executive branch both want a puppet.
• She is easily, easily set aside (so they think). Any planned reconciliation with the Tower likely involves Elaida being deposed and Egwene stepping down. The technicality used to promote her can just as well be interpreted differently to remove her. And any punishment she faces is mitigated by her just being young and a puppet and not fully culpable.
• She is powerful, and we know how Aes Sedai feel about power rankings.

[MasterAblar]

5 minutes ago, ForsakenPotato said:

I generally agree that Egwene doesn't need the Taveren boost and is pretty proactive about making her own way...except for the scene when she is made Amyrlin. I remember thinking that was some Rand-level plot magic when I was reading it. Her dreaming ability also always struck me as kinda similar to Perrin and the wolves and Mat's luck.

I guess I can go either way, I see arguments that others have already highlighted for why it doesn't make sense and those seem legit, but if there were another Taveren among the EF squad I think she makes a lot of sense.

 

 

Eh all the channelers end up with talents. Innovative healing, creating terangeal, sensing what a terangeal is for.

 

Egwene being made Amyrlin was kinda an asspull but on the other hand it does make sense since the Aes Sedai just wanted a figurehead and nothing more. 

[TheDreadReader]

2 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

I mean Moiraine seems to pretty clearly state they don’t know where the DR was born but maybe they’ll retcon it.

As for non readers I agree it wouldn’t bother them because they don’t know what it means. At most they’d be confused at not having the term explained.

 

To me that falls perfectly in line with how Aes Sedai speak about most things without explicitly removing it from the criteria.

 

It is a "I have a sister..." "All Aes Sedai are my sisters" kind of thing to me.

 

Thinking of things in that way helps me with adding Nyneave and Egwene in the Five/Four statements from a set-theory perspective.

 

 

[Agitel]

3 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

 

 

Eh all the channelers end up with talents. Innovative healing, creating terangeal, sensing what a terangeal is for.

 

Egwene being made Amyrlin was kinda an asspull but on the other hand it does make sense since the Aes Sedai just wanted a figurehead and nothing more. 

 

And Egwene turns it around not through any twisting of ta'veren pull, but through her own resolve and cunning. And her not being afraid to use resources like Siuan and Leane.

Edited November 23, 2021 by Agitel

[AshennaSedai]

3 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

 

 

Not sure what you mean by the 1st part there? There aren’t any female ta’verren in the scope of the books and the only who can sense ta’verren are Logain, Siuan, and I belive Nicola. Were yiu refencing something else or am I missing something?

In the scope of the books sure, but I read somewhere that Mabriam en Shereed (the Queen of Aramaelle when the Ten Nations also an Aes Sedai) was ta'veren. Which looked to be said in The Wheel of Time Companion. I'm not entirely sure on the veracity of male Aes Sedai but that was my source on female ta'veren existing.

[Agitel]

Yeah... there's nothing saying that there can't be women ta'veren. There definitely can be.

[MasterAblar]

1 hour ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

To me that falls perfectly in line with how Aes Sedai speak about most things without explicitly removing it from the criteria.

 

It is a "I have a sister..." "All Aes Sedai are my sisters" kind of thing to me.

 

Thinking of things in that way helps me with adding Nyneave and Egwene in the Five/Four statements from a set-theory perspective.

 

 

Normally I’d agree… but she’s doing a narration, so it seems very weird to use Aes Sedai trickery when she’s just talking to viewers basically.

 

Not to mention what’s the point? They’re keeping Rand’s birth a secret anyway.

Edited November 23, 2021 by MasterAblar

[AshennaSedai]

2 minutes ago, Agitel said:

Yeah... there's nothing saying that there can't be women ta'veren. There definitely can be.

I sometimes feel like in some conversations that folks either A) didn't realize that precisely because it's not in the scope of the books (it's in an extra book no less) and B)  Might know it but don't think it's a solid idea.

 

I am happy to be proven wrong and I am glad some folks here do know that.

[MasterAblar]

4 minutes ago, Agitel said:

Yeah... there's nothing saying that there can't be women ta'veren. There definitely can be.

Oh I agree I was just saying there weren’t any in the books so I’m not sure what was meant by people sensing Ta’verren. I don’t believe there’s any indication that’s gender restricted is it?

 

There’s obviously nothing that prevents the Wheel from spinning out a female ta’verren.

Edited November 23, 2021 by MasterAblar

[Agitel]

6 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

Normally I’d agree… but she’s doing a narration, so it seems very weird to use Aes Sedai when she’s just talking to viewers basically.

 

Not to mention what’s the point? They’re keeping Rand’s birth a secret anyway.

 

Someone else mentioned that the opening monologue sounded like something an Amazon executive demanded be added. I feel the same. Like the show was originally going to open on the reds hunting the male channeler.

[Agitel]

6 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

Oh I agree I was just saying there weren’t any in the books so I’m not sure what was meant by people sensing Ta’verren. I don’t believe there’s any indication that’s gender restricted is it?

 

There’s obviously nothing that prevents the Wheel from spinning out a female ta’verren.

 

I'm not aware of sensing ta'veren being gendered, but I haven't read the Companion.

[AshennaSedai]

10 minutes ago, Agitel said:

 

I'm not aware of sensing ta'veren being gendered, but I haven't read the Companion.

 

And this is the inherent danger of putting a detail like this in auxiliary media to begin with. Not everyone reads it so it can cause some confusion.

[MasterAblar]

Logain was able to sense Rand though, and they're both male. So it doesn't seem like it's gendered to me.

[Deadsy]

ta'veren and the ability to sense them is not gendered.

[AshennaSedai]

37 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

Logain was able to sense Rand though, and they're both male. So it doesn't seem like it's gendered to me.

 

Gotcha this is the piece of info I was missing. In my second post, I did note that I was unable to verify the veracity of the former statement so I do appreciate this.

[MasterAblar]

2 minutes ago, AshennaSedai said:

 

Gotcha this is the piece of info I was missing. In my second post, I did note that I was unable to verify the veracity of the former statement so I do appreciate this.

 

No problem, I was a little confused actually. For some reason I thought you were speaking of the ability to fully heal stilling/gentling/severing at first, since that's the only thing I recall being truly gender restricted in such a way.

[TheDreadReader]

1 hour ago, Agitel said:

 

The Egwene selection for Amyrlin made sense to me.

• The Tower is divided, the Salidar Aes Sedai want Rand to side with them, she grew up with Rand. But also...
• She is young, Accepted, and the Hall and Sheriam's executive branch both want a puppet.
• She is easily, easily set aside (so they think). Any planned reconciliation with the Tower likely involves Elaida being deposed and Egwene stepping down. The technicality used to promote her can just as well be interpreted differently to remove her. And any punishment she faces is mitigated by her just being young and a puppet and not fully culpable.
• She is powerful, and we know how Aes Sedai feel about power rankings.

 

For me, at least, the "She is powerful" works against the other reasons you give.   If she is powerful then she is less easily manipulated.   Unless you've established that she's been successfully manipulated or they have reason to be can be manipulated in the future.  

 

For the sake of argument, assume that the Aes Sedai have two equal candidates in mind.   They decide to flip a coin to decide between the two.  There is a 50% chance that Egwene is picked.  But, if she is considered tav'veren from the outset then we can be reasonably certain that the coin will always land for Egwene.   And, that also helps explain away the "easily manipulated" point (at least to me).

 

 

[MasterAblar]

Don't think they really had another candidate. Only other one was Nyneave and she would have been harder to control based on what they knew of her. It was either some nobody or Egwene, for their purposes at least.

 

I don't think Egwene being ta'verren would break her story, I just don't think its the best way to tell her story is all.

Edited November 23, 2021 by MasterAblar

[Agitel]

17 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

Don't think they really had another candidate. Only other one was Nyneave and she would have been harder to control based on what they knew of her. It was either some nobody or Egwene, for their purposes at least.

 

I don't think Egwene being ta'verren would break her story, I just don't think its the best way to tell her story is all.

 

Nynaeve was 25, still had her block, and her temperament wasn't suitable at all for the role or for being a figurehead.

 

Egwene was 18, didn't have a block, and they presumed more pliable.