Finished The Great Hunt and two MAJOR doubts nag at me

[Sanchezserious]

PLEASE TRY TO AVOYD SPOILERS FOR BEYOND EOTW AND TGH

Ok, so I finished the second book and just subscribed the this website sonI can ask the two major doubts that nag me since the beginning:

 

DOUBT #1: ON REINCARNATION

Ok, so people reincarnates in this universe, I understand, but is that everyone or just the relevant people?

 

Because when Mat blows the horn, all this dead heroes show up and address Rand as Lews Therin, but shouldn’t Lews Therin himself show up also as a ghost? And also, haven’t the dead heroes also reincarnated? Shouldn’t some of their reincarnations also show up for the battle?

 

DOUBT NUMERO 2: YOUR DAILY DOSE OF EXISTENTIAL DREAD

”The wheel weaves as the wheel wills” is an expression commonly uttered in this world to accept whatever turns of fate, whether bad or good, affect people, as in saying “it is meant to happen and we can but accept it”.

 

It baffles me that people just accepts this whithout question and moves on whithout having constant fits of existential dread, because if the wheel determines our fate, doesn’t that mean that there’s no free will? What power of decision does the people in this world have if everything is subjected to the will of the wheel of time? If Rand being the Dragon reborn and fighting The Dark One is meant to be, why does he have to try anything or worry about the outcome of battles?

 

Long story short: To which extent is everything determined by the wheel? Do people’s choices and actions matter in this world? Why is there nobody in the world that wonders about this things or questions this?

 

If you’re asking yourself: Yes, I tend to overthink things.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Sanchezserious
Avoiding spoilers

[Agitel]

3 hours ago, Sanchezserious said:

PLEASE TRY TO AVOYD SPOILERS FOR BEYOND EOTW AND TGH

Ok, so I finished the second book and just subscribed the this website sonI can ask the two major doubts that nag me since the beginning:

 

DOUBT #1: ON REINCARNATION

Ok, so people reincarnates in this universe, I understand, but is that everyone or just the relevant people?

 

Because when Mat blows the horn, all this dead heroes show up and address Rand as Lews Therin, but shouldn’t Lews Therin himself show up also as a ghost? And also, haven’t the dead heroes also reincarnated? Shouldn’t some of their reincarnations also show up for the battle?

 

Lew Therin's soul didn't show up with the horn because it was reborn in the real (WoT) world as Rand.

 

Everyone is reborn in the WoT-verse. There's more that can be said, such as "what's up with the Heros of the Horn?", but you'll read more on that in later books. So Read And Find Out (RAFO).

 

3 hours ago, Sanchezserious said:

 

DOUBT NUMERO 2: YOUR DAILY DOSE OF EXISTENTIAL DREAD

”The wheel weaves as the wheel wills” is an expression commonly uttered in this world to accept whatever turns of fate, whether bad or good, affect people, as in saying “it is meant to happen and we can but accept it”.

 

It baffles me that people just accepts this whithout question and moves on whithout having constant fits of existential dread, because if the wheel determines our fate, doesn’t that mean that there’s no free will? What power of decision does the people in this world have if everything is subjected to the will of the wheel of time? If Rand being the Dragon reborn and fighting The Dark One is meant to be, why does he have to try anything or worry about the outcome of battles?

 

Long story short: To which extent is everything determined by the wheel? Do people’s choices and actions matter in this world? Why is there nobody in the world that wonders about this things or questions this?

 

If you’re asking yourself: Yes, I tend to overthink things.

 

Well, the Dark One seems to be working against the Wheel, does he not? So there are influences outside of it. As for existential dread... I mean, the ancient Norse people, Greeks, etc... believed their lives were fated. Christians throughout history believed in the aseity and ultimate providence and sovereignty of God, yet you didn't see people running about en masse in fits of existential dread. There is an understanding of our participation in that fate/providence. It's not the same as stating we're pulled from here to there on puppet strings like unknowing and unwilling objects. I think that's a deeper philosophical and theological discussion, though. As far as the books go, the characters accept it and aren't running about with existential dread. There's not much more to say book-wise on it, I think.

 

Oh, and welcome to Dragonmount! We love new readers.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Agitel

[SinisterDeath]

4 hours ago, Sanchezserious said:

Ok, so people reincarnates in this universe, I understand, but is that everyone or just the relevant people?

Everyone is reborn. Some are just specifically reborn to be certain people at certain times.

 

4 hours ago, Sanchezserious said:

Because when Mat blows the horn, all this dead heroes show up and address Rand as Lews Therin, but shouldn’t Lews Therin himself show up also as a ghost?

No, because there is only 1 soul between Lews Therin & Rand al' Thor. Only 100 souls are bound to the horn at any one time. They recognized his soul. Lews Therin couldn't also be a ghost called by the Horn and be reborn at the same time.

 

4 hours ago, Sanchezserious said:

”The wheel weaves as the wheel wills” is an expression commonly uttered in this world to accept whatever turns of fate, whether bad or good, affect people, as in saying “it is meant to happen and we can but accept it”.

Think of it like when someone says "we'll pray for you". You're supposed to just kind of accept what happens.

 

4 hours ago, Sanchezserious said:

It baffles me that people just accepts this whithout question and moves on whithout having constant fits of existential dread, because if the wheel determines our fate, doesn’t that mean that there’s no free will? What power of decision does the people in this world have if everything is subjected to the will of the wheel of time? If Rand being the Dragon reborn and fighting The Dark One is meant to be, why does he have to try anything or worry about the outcome of battles?

Do people in our reality have constant fits of existential dread? No.. But yes.

 

One could look at it like people have free-will, and their free-will is what caused the Dark One to be released, but the wheel is always trying to self-correct for free-will.

 

Think of the wheel as a giant computer that can see all future realities, and it's capable of adjusting probabilities of external events in real time to self-correct to the optimal outcome. (Think, Doctor Strange, MCU, Loki's prime timeline, and the What IF) But, if people with free-will just choose not to do something, regardless of how many hints it gives the person to do something, they could ultimately throw the whole wheel of kilter and destroy the universe in the process.

 

4 hours ago, Sanchezserious said:

Long story short: To which extent is everything determined by the wheel? Do people’s choices and actions matter in this world? Why is there nobody in the world that wonders about this things or questions this?

There could be people who wonder about it, RJ/Sanderson just never wrote about them. RJ was also very vague as to any kind of organized religion in WoT, so we really don't even know how much of their cosmology/metaphysics is actually known by the population at large, let alone how they know they are facts.

[Pembie]

I asked the same question really about Lewis Treain going mad and killing his wife so that might mean the dark one won that time around before Rand came along I’m just wondering if all the other main characters have been different or going through loops of same things as the wheel turns 

[Sabio]

Everyone is reborn, just a select few are reborn to to play important roles.  But doesn't mean they will do something of fame every life.  Even Brigette remembers just being a farmer once and thought it was the most boring life ever. Actually there can be more then a 100 people tied to the horn, when Mat blew it in Book 2 Rand noticed there was more then 100 and somehow and thought that somehow he knew there would be.  The number simply varies depending how many have been reborn.

 

The series is based on Free Will.  Which is why every soul isn't tied to the same fate over and over.  The Forsaken this time will probably be just ordinary folks next time.  The Wheel does push certain events, to make new ages arrive.  Only LTT and Ishy are destined to play major roles again and again.  

[Youss99]

On 11/12/2021 at 11:34 PM, Sabio said:

  Only LTT and Ishy are destined to play major roles again and again.  

All the heroes of the horn are destined to play major roles again and again.  Not every hero ends or starts an Age, but the heroes of the horn do much more than just be farmers (even if they were one).

[Sabio]

Ishy and LTT will be reborn to do their things, their souls are linked.  They are the only ones guaranteed to be around next time.  As we have seen many of the heroes were not around, yes the heroes will take part in stuff, have stories written about them,.  But only LTT and IShy are guaranteed to be around for the breaking and Last Battle.

[Youss99]

Other than Ishamael saying that, do we know that for sure?  The only one of those two we KNOW are linked to the horn is LTT. 

 

And we don't know which heroes help bring about the end/beginning of other Ages?  Their importance and guaranteed return time and again will but just as important as the Last Battle and the Breaking of the World. 

 

Just because we know about this Age, doesn't mean the others aren't equally as important to the turning of the wheel.

 

As there are multiple Ages in the turning of the wheel.  We have seen the end of one and the beginning of another.  There are certainly going to be other heroes of the horn that rise to the level of the Dragon in the other ages.

Edited November 21, 2021 by Youss99

[Akragard]

On 11/9/2021 at 3:43 AM, Sanchezserious said:

Long story short: To which extent is everything determined by the wheel? Do people’s choices and actions matter in this world? Why is there nobody in the world that wonders about this things or questions this?

Everyone is a thread on the pattern. Some people's threads have more play than others, but everyone's thread has a little wiggle room, doctor speak.

[shiningwalls]

On 11/9/2021 at 4:43 PM, Sanchezserious said:

DOUBT NUMERO 2: YOUR DAILY DOSE OF EXISTENTIAL DREAD

”The wheel weaves as the wheel wills” is an expression commonly uttered in this world to accept whatever turns of fate, whether bad or good, affect people, as in saying “it is meant to happen and we can but accept it”.

 

It baffles me that people just accepts this whithout question and moves on whithout having constant fits of existential dread, because if the wheel determines our fate, doesn’t that mean that there’s no free will? What power of decision does the people in this world have if everything is subjected to the will of the wheel of time? If Rand being the Dragon reborn and fighting The Dark One is meant to be, why does he have to try anything or worry about the outcome of battles?

 

Long story short: To which extent is everything determined by the wheel? Do people’s choices and actions matter in this world? Why is there nobody in the world that wonders about this things or questions this?

 

Based on a close reading of the books what I understand is that the characters’ fates are predestined to varying degrees, depending on how important that person is in the Pattern’s larger weaving, and what circumstances the character is trying to exert his/her will over. In other words, a character seems able to exercise some degree of free will – able to make some choices but constrained in others.

 

“If a man tries to change the direction of his life and the Pattern has room for it, the Wheel just weaves on and takes it in. There is always room for small changes, but sometimes the Pattern simply won't accept a big change, no matter how hard you try.” (Loial tells Rand, in The Eye of the World)

 

Case in point are the three boys who are ta’veren. 

 

“Sometimes being ta’veren means the Pattern is forced to bend to you, and sometimes it means the Pattern forces you to the needed path. The Web can still be woven many ways, and some of those designs would be disastrous. For you, for the world.” (Moiraine tells the boys, in The Eye of the World)

 

They are also told that the Wheel weaves a “Web of Destiny” (ta’maral’ailen) around them ‘tightly’, the implication being that those who are tightly woven have less control over their circumstances than those who aren’t (non-ta’veren), unless they happen to be ‘taken’ in the Web due to their relationships with ta’veren (e.g. Min. Elayne, et al).

 

In the closing chapters of The Great Hunt, the main characters are described as being quite literally ‘drawn’ to a specific place (e.g. Rand has a recurring internal monologue about what/where he “has” to do/go, and Egwene goes to the right place looking for him after his showdown with Ba’alzamon). Those seem clearly meant to show them being forced to a specific path by the Pattern.

 

On the other hand, during the scene when Ingtar and company travel by Portal Stone to Toman Head, the characters are described as passing through a score of alternate universes in which they see how their lives might have unfolded differently under different circumstances. This suggests that some choices made by the characters do change certain details of how events unfold along the way (though maybe not the final outcome). Verin tells Rand, “Does it surprise you that your life might go differently if you made different choices?”

 

All this suggests an answer to your question of why Rand tries things and worries about outcomes. In the later books when you get more insight into his thoughts regarding the Last Battle, it seems he is worried not simply about the outcome (defeating the Dark One), but also the way in which events leading up to the Last Battle as well as the aftermath affect the world. Because he is also prophesied to Break the world in the process, he is concerned about the wider repercussions of his actions and his legacy; he wants to minimize the collateral damage so to speak. To the extent that some choices are under his control, it’s not irrational for him to try to exert his will over them.

 

A more general observation about predestination and people having fatalistic attitudes because of that – this is not specific to the WoT; some people/cultures in the real world do believe in fate, but it doesn’t stop them from making choices and trying to influence the outcome of their lives. For a more banal example, consider terminally ill patients who’ve been told by their doctors that they only have a few months left to live; some of those patients will be resigned to their ‘fate’, but others will insist on giving some experimental treatment a go or praying very hard or whatever—in other words, the knowledge that their end is basically predetermined doesn’t conflict with the desire to effect some degree of control over it.

[Sabio]

On 11/20/2021 at 6:08 PM, Youss99 said:

Other than Ishamael saying that, do we know that for sure?  The only one of those two we KNOW are linked to the horn is LTT. 

 

And we don't know which heroes help bring about the end/beginning of other Ages?  Their importance and guaranteed return time and again will but just as important as the Last Battle and the Breaking of the World. 

 

Just because we know about this Age, doesn't mean the others aren't equally as important to the turning of the wheel.

 

As there are multiple Ages in the turning of the wheel.  We have seen the end of one and the beginning of another.  There are certainly going to be other heroes of the horn that rise to the level of the Dragon in the other ages.

Yes from RJ.  Ishy was right about LTT and Ishy fighting this battle thousands of times.  Ishy still got some stuff wrong but they are destined to go at it again and again.  Other heroes do stuff, but as we have seen most of the heroes weren't reborn for the last battle.  RJ said Ishy and LTT are the rare type of souls that are linked, like Cain and Birgette,  

[UOweTamASword]

On 12/7/2021 at 12:56 PM, shiningwalls said:

 

A more general observation about predestination and people having fatalistic attitudes because of that – this is not specific to the WoT; some people/cultures in the real world do believe in fate, but it doesn’t stop them from making choices and trying to influence the outcome of their lives. For a more banal example, consider terminally ill patients who’ve been told by their doctors that they only have a few months left to live; some of those patients will be resigned to their ‘fate’, but others will insist on giving some experimental treatment a go or praying very hard or whatever—in other words, the knowledge that their end is basically predetermined doesn’t conflict with the desire to effect some degree of control over it.

 

On 11/9/2021 at 6:50 AM, Agitel said:

 

 

Well, the Dark One seems to be working against the Wheel, does he not? So there are influences outside of it. As for existential dread... I mean, the ancient Norse people, Greeks, etc... believed their lives were fated. Christians throughout history believed in the aseity and ultimate providence and sovereignty of God, yet you didn't see people running about en masse in fits of existential dread. There is an understanding of our participation in that fate/providence. It's not the same as stating we're pulled from here to there on puppet strings like unknowing and unwilling objects. I think that's a deeper philosophical and theological discussion, though. As far as the books go, the characters accept it and aren't running about with existential dread. There's not much more to say book-wise on it, I think.

 

People like to bring this up in the context of religious beliefs on predetermination, but the question of free will is just as much of a "problem" for non-religious on scientific principles.

 

Consider the age of our universe or multiverse. Hawking considered us finite and time ends when the universe collapses. But that's more of a convenient assumption because if time is infinite, we have the same problem as the Wheel does. Our universe has to have existed before and recur cyclically, otherwise any entropy in the system would mean the energy in the multiverse should have dissipated an infinite time ago and our universe shouldn't exist.

 

The more straightforward scientific problem with free will is our brains. How can science explain the decisions you make in there as anything other than reactions to stimuli? Without some magic/divine intervention (i.e. not science), your "decisions" are no more your own than a rock choosing to get kicked down the road or a flower "choosing" to bloom.

 

So ask yourself why you don't have existential crises from this everyday. The answer is mostly because you don't have the time/energy to and you have much more free time than anyone does in a feudalistic society like Randland.

Edited December 10, 2021 by UOweTamASword

[EmreY]

On 11/9/2021 at 11:43 AM, Sanchezserious said:

 

”The wheel weaves as the wheel wills” is an expression commonly uttered in this world to accept whatever turns of fate, whether bad or good, affect people, as in saying “it is meant to happen and we can but accept it”.

 

It baffles me that people just accepts this whithout question and moves on whithout having constant fits of existential dread, because if the wheel determines our fate, doesn’t that mean that there’s no free will? What power of decision does the people in this world have if everything is subjected to the will of the wheel of time? If Rand being the Dragon reborn and fighting The Dark One is meant to be, why does he have to try anything or worry about the outcome of battles?

 

I don't quite agree.  From my - very limited - understanding, that only applies to people who are ta'veren, and even they don't always do what they should be doing.  As for the rest of us, there is considerable leeway unless we go completely cuckoo (individually).  And if we go cuckoo en masse, then the Wheel takes steps to ensure that the Pattern doesn't unravel.

 

It's not too different to real life.  Free will is real but also ultimately pointless.

Edited December 12, 2021 by EmreY