Nature of Good, Evil, and Balance in the Wheel of Time

[Dedicated]

7 hours ago, Acevillain said:

This makes me wonder on how free will interacts with the Wheel. Since the WoT creates the pattern of the age with the different threads of our lives, how does this fatalistic concept interact with the notion of free will? I know this is something that Ishamael and Rand bring up a lot, but I don’t think it was satisfactorily dealt with is the series. How can someone, especially a Taveran, honestly think they have free will when making decisions?

 

Let's consider Adam and Eve again. They had the most free will because they had less interference from others with the ability to use free will. But as a population grows opposing wills conflict. I might be a person of nomadic traditions while you are someone who believes in settlements. Your will to establish a settlement imposes on my free will to wander the land which you have settled. Now expand this idea by the many ways free will can be expressed and you'll see that as a population grows and circumstances become more set our "free will" becomes hindered by others' free will. So in a sense we are victims of our own collective free will which increasingly limits our individual free wills. 

 

This interweaving of our collective wills and the impacts it has on our context or environment is what shapes the pattern of the ages and certain circumstances/events eventually become an inevitability. And this idea of actually having no choice is expressed by Rand and Mat and probably others as well. Rand sees no freedom to just walk away from his path and eventually Mat has to admit the same for himself.

[Dedicated]

6 hours ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

But I (respectfully) find your philosophy here to be ... Mmm words escape me ... I want to be kind but I threw up a little in my mouth there. The idea that there is NOT real evil comes from choosing to keep one's eyes shut... And it really ticks me off. 

 

You misunderstand me. I never said there weren't evils to be abolished or eliminated. Just that in an objective sense those evils are just evil's as we have perceived them. All that nasty stuff you described is actually natural human or animalistic motivations. It's a mistake for us to assume that it isn't an innate natural part of is because that is when those impulses will sneak up on you. I'm not suggesting that you'll become a rapist or murderer, but simply that to ignore our innate natures is a mistake that could lead us to evils we don't recognize. Hitler probably believed he was doing "good" for humanity likely because he never considered the possibility that he was actually being driven by deeper innate, animalistic motivations. 

 

As intelligent, sentient creatures we have the ability for conceptualization and abstraction. And if you're good enough with manipulating a memetic construct you can easily commit an evil thinking you were doing something good. 

 

There IS EVIL to be abolished, but it is an EVIL as we perceive it. I think we probably disagree on this because I'm not sure if God exists. I really REALLY want to believe that God does exist, but if God doesn't not exist then there is no objective good or evil. There is only good and evil as we humans perceive, judge and enforce it. 

 

EDIT: While tending to my garden of murder (playing MGSV) a somewhat good example of misdirected "goodness" occurred to me. Think of Avienda's visions of the future. Her grandchildren misrepresent evidence that the Seanchan had intentions of breaking the Dragon's Peace in an effort to destroy them. Look at it from their perspective. The Seanchan are enslaving and torturing channelers. An undoubtly "evil" thing to do. Compared to that evil what is the evil of misrepresenting evidence if it destroys and ends the evil of enslavement and torture? There was also pride involved here too, but the reasoning that got them to the conclusion they reached probably began with the through process I just suggested. 

 

Sun Tzu suggested that when diplomacy fails to resolve a conflict EVERYONE will lose something. As I suggested in another post, it's better to respectfully debate something than to resort to violence or simply shutting down discussion of something simply because their ideas are revolting to you. Life, existence and all of creation is extremely nuanced and complicated (or rather our reactions to those things). WE DO NOT know as much as we think we do and it's a mistaken to assume that we clearly understand "good vs evil" and "right vs wrong." There may come a time when the existence of absolute, objective "good and evil" is proven, but until that time we need to respect each other's free wills and be open to discourse while detaching ourselves from the emotional reaction that is naturally produced when faced with ideas or concepts we don't agree with or that disgust us. 

Edited October 25, 2021 by Dedicated

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, Dedicated said:

There IS EVIL to be abolished, but it is an EVIL as we perceive it. I think we probably disagree on this because I'm not sure if God exists. I really REALLY want to believe that God does exist, but if God doesn't not exist then there is no objective good or evil. There is only good and evil as we humans perceive, judge and enforce it. 

I think that you really want to believe God exists because if He doesn't there is no absolute truth.  It is up to us individually to perceive what is right/wrong - "That's true for you, but not for me."

 

Do you believe in absolutes, or is all truth situational?  Independent of culture, religion (not God), society, etc.  Are there truths that can span everything?

 

Did Rand struggle with similar questions as he battled the DO?  Did he reach the same conclusion as Moiraine, Egwene?

Edited October 25, 2021 by DojoToad

[Morani]

What happens to a child that never gets told "No"? How will you grow if you are never challenged? 

 

It is very easy to think that we know what is good and evil, but the problem is seeing how our actions affects others further down the line. You could never be good at something, cause that would mean that someone else might become sad about not being as good as you. There are very few actions that could be seen as good from all angles. It also means that you have to bring morality to the goodness: Is the goal to keep to some set commandments (like in Christianity) or to minimize sadness/maximize happiness for everyone? Those too are far from one and the same. 

 

I live a life of relative privilege, like more or less all on you on this forum do (having enough to have the means and the time to write on a forum proves this). Still, I think all of us has had (or have) hardship and sadness in our lives that at times felt unsurmountable. Suffering is always relative, and no one should judge anyone else on this. But I still would not want to be without any of the suffering I have felt in my life. It has made me who I am and I am better for it. As cliché as it sounds. I also have friends who has been through absolute hell in their childhood, and I bet they would not make the same decision. It has however inspired my friend to do an amazing amount of good towards other unfortunate children. 

 

Think of the happiest moments of your life. Most of them happened after you achieved something that was hard for you. Be it childbirth, overcoming something, learning something or finding love. I would not want to go through life just getting participation awards. 

 

On 10/24/2021 at 12:23 AM, Wolfbrother31 said:

A silly example:

Let's say you're from Minnesota (like me) and you know cold - I mean really cold... But you go and live with a tribe in the Amazon. 

 

You could describe to them what 30 below was like and they could understand though they've never experienced cold. And though "cold" doesn't exist for them...it exists. 

But then let's say the planet heats up and it's 100 degrees all the time everywhere...

The Heat exists though the cold doesn't. But if I were still around - I would know it's bloody flaming hot ?

You are contradicting yourself. You only know it is hot because you know what cold is. It is only hot if it is colder someplace as. Otherwise it just...is. 

[DojoToad]

Rand decided that destroying the dark one meant eliminating evil - so no free will.

 

What if he was wrong?

 

What if an Aes Sedai plot 'made' Logain the Dragon and he chose differently?

[DaddyFinn]

22 hours ago, Rose said:

Veins of Gold

One of the best and most important chapters in the whole series. Rand was going on a wrong parh and would have destroyed everything.

[Dedicated]

TL;DR version of this: There may be absolute truths that span everything, but I don't think we are capable of finding them without the right tools. For now the best we can do is define and know what we believe to be true, keep an open mind and try our best to understand other people while exercising restraint in our judgements of those people with differing beliefs. 

 

3 hours ago, DojoToad said:

I think that you really want to believe God exists because if He doesn't there is no absolute truth.  It is up to us individually to perceive what is right/wrong - "That's true for you, but not for me."

 

To be fair my belief in an absolute, objective Truth being dependent on the existence of God (my definition/conception of God) is really just me giving this "Entity" authority to define it because I do not believe that I or anyone else is capable of doing so. So it's kind of a copout. Maybe it's even cowardly. In my perspective we are children learning the difference between good and evil and God is up there looking down on us like, "Oh you silly little creatures... you'll get there eventually. No matter how much suffering it takes..." 

 

And ultimately yes, it is up to us to define and decide what is right and what is wrong. And it's an on going process. If you've ever read the Old Testament then you'll see that god has kind of changed his tune as we developed and grew. There were times when god charged his people to go out and murder others because they followed other gods. There were times when god said if someone rapes a woman they should marry them (maybe because they were just so undeveloped that explaining rape was wrong would have been as challenging as explaining quantum physics to a child or me). The thing is that we, as people just plain suck and if you think that your way of thinking is more right or wrong that someone else's and you just shut down the discourse... at that point... bad things can happen. Consider Elan for example. There is a point when Rand comes to understand his point of view and considers the possibility that Elan had never really known love. He even wonders if maybe if he had tried to reach him things might have been different. 

 

2 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Do you believe in absolutes, or is all truth situational?  Independent of culture, religion (not God), society, etc.  Are there truths that can span everything?

 

I want to believe that there are absolute truths, but I don't think we are developed enough to really settle on any argument with the amount of certainty that many here seem to want to.

 

The discovery of absolute truths will come when we have grown up (in my mind centuries if not in ages from now; so it's basically impossible for us so we shouldn't even bother THINKING about right and wrong in terms of absolutes and objectiveness because it often leads to poor judgements in our interactions with each other. We should think in terms of what is right and what is wrong for us and the people we have to live around with respect to their interpretations of right and wrong. Compromise basically, but that doesn't mean you should stop believing in what you believe. You should only reevaluate your perspective when undeniable, contradictory evidence presents itself. And as a little speculative aside, I think we'll need some objective tool for observing the mind/consciousness before we'll get there. Cause just what is consciousness? What is your definition of love and how do I know that it is really the same as mine? What is your definition of god? Etc

 

Until then we need to decide what is right and wrong for ourselves. And in order to do that we have to 1st know and understand ourselves. Judgement should primarily be focused on our selves and any judgement directed at others should be done so as so far as it protects yourself and your beliefs. 2nd, to know our circumstances and surroundings (which often involves understanding and judging others to the extent the aforementioned point says). And we should be talking about whether something is right or wrong (eg. that thread about whether Tylin raped Mat or not), but we shouldn't allow our emotional responses to interfere with our perceptions and judgements of those situations. Some amount of emotionally detached objectivism is required and an extraordinary amount of empathy as well. No one shares the same collection of experiences and those experiences shape the way we perceive and react to certain situations/events. 

 

2 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Did Rand struggle with similar questions as he battled the DO?  Did he reach the same conclusion as Moiraine, Egwene?

 

I'm not sure what Moiraine or Egwene's conclusions were beyond the belief that the bore needed to be resealed. But if we want to look to someone's point of view in which Rand did ultimately come to agree with I think it would have to be Elyane's. When Rand first proposed the Dragon's Peace Elyane made the point that Rand cannot change human nature. Conflicts are inevitable and there would have to be a way  to resolve those conflicts. Again people suck and we have to form rules in order to properly mitigate our innate suckiness. 

 

In Rand's version of the world people were deprived of the challenges of defining right and wrong; Rand defined it for them like god did in the garden of Eden. They were deprived the challenge of compromise and understanding others. And so they became hollow version of humanity. Simpering, vapid children. Which IMO wouldn't be so bad. I mean it least there is peace and no suffering. Though I imagine that type of environment and relationship would have been isolating and lonely for Rand/god.

[DojoToad]

Dang.  @Dedicated  Very well thought out.  I'll have to think on that and get back after work.

[SinisterDeath]

I've only taken a quick read-through, and I want to thank you all for keeping this civil! (Unless I missed something in my speed, then Bad! Bad!)

As for the topic at hand, "Balance" is a running theme in WoT.
The DO and the Creator represent more than just "good/evil".

In the WoT;
The Creator is Order, Creation, Expansion, Love
The Dark One is Chaos, Destruction, Entropy, Hate.
Balance is Freewill, and Forgiveness.

 

There are also a number parallels between the Fae's Seelie(Summer) and Unseelie (Winter) courts and the DO/Creator.

[Dedicated]

1 hour ago, DojoToad said:

Dang.  @Dedicated  Very well thought out.  I'll have to think on that and get back after work.

 

Don't think too hard about it unless you think there is real value in it for you personally. This isn't life or death stuff. This is armchair philosophy and the ramblings of a college dropout and failed network engineer who has struggled with depression and suicidal thoughts for most of his life. It's very possible that there is a glaring problem with my line of logic that I am just completely blind to and unable to see.

 

I can only pray that the powers I am currently struggling against will grant me my $100 million as apology for their... games or a quick and painless death. I'm basically stuck in an argument against a shadow organization that refuses to meet me face to face to talk about this. Maybe they are afraid I'll try to kill them or punch them in the face I don't know and I won't deny it. Hopefully they are real men who have really fought in wars and seen and done horrific stuff and I'll be like a fly they just have to swat away and I'll be too intimated to make a move. But if it turns out to be some scrawny pencil pusher who has been playing games with my life and totally disregarding the suffering they have imposed on me (a person who has never really experienced a tragedies that seriously overshadow my own experiences)  I may not be able to control myself and I might try to rip their throats out with my bare teeth or try with all of my might to stomp their faces into the back of their skulls. 

 

I can be abrasive and crass. I have felt hopeless and powerless most of my life and ultimately had to conclude that, that is just the way life is. It is extremely difficult to come to terms with these things on your own while everyone around you is like "just get over it. It's not that big of a deal." It was a big deal to me and if they can't appreciate or understand that or if I am just too sensitive then I should be euthanized because I simply am not strong enough to survive in this world and I HAVE TRIED MY ABSOLUTE BEST! The only way I've managed to maintain my sanity is by making a jokes out of things (not unlike Tyrion who I LOVE) because to me I see a lot of people talking about stuff with so much certainty, but it's all just a joke to me and I just can't help but laugh, because the only other option is to cry and I do enough of that already. 

 

Shout out to FBI detective Jeff Johnson who was in the St Louis MI office in 2016. 

[DojoToad]

30 years ago I might have been one of those people telling you to suck it up. But I’ve been to pretty low spots myself - mostly self-inflicted but often enough from society, people, etc. to say that life isn’t fair. But that’s okay. Life doesn’t have to be fair. 
 

For the most part, you can’t do it on your own. You will need help from family, friends, God…

 

No matter how ‘strong’ you are, this world can break you. For some it is early and often, for others it is infrequent. We can recover, but we’ll need help

 

 

[DojoToad]

8 hours ago, Dedicated said:

 

Don't think too hard about it unless you think there is real value in it for you personally. This isn't life or death stuff. This is armchair philosophy and the ramblings of a college dropout and failed network engineer who has struggled with depression and suicidal thoughts for most of his life. It's very possible that there is a glaring problem with my line of logic that I am just completely blind to and unable to see.

I came to philosophy late in life.  Not very good at it - self taught if you couldn't tell.  I'm only here because there is not something more entertaining to do.

 

8 hours ago, Dedicated said:

 

I can only pray that the powers I am currently struggling against will grant me my $100 million as apology for their... games or a quick and painless death. I'm basically stuck in an argument against a shadow organization that refuses to meet me face to face to talk about this. Maybe they are afraid I'll try to kill them or punch them in the face I don't know and I won't deny it. Hopefully they are real men who have really fought in wars and seen and done horrific stuff and I'll be like a fly they just have to swat away and I'll be too intimated to make a move. But if it turns out to be some scrawny pencil pusher who has been playing games with my life and totally disregarding the suffering they have imposed on me (a person who has never really experienced a tragedies that seriously overshadow my own experiences)  I may not be able to control myself and I might try to rip their throats out with my bare teeth or try with all of my might to stomp their faces into the back of their skulls.

We all struggle with the overwhelming, and we all cope in different ways.  There are helpful and non-helpful - well, maybe they all help at least temporarily, but maybe this is where the morals come in.  Is there much harm in drinking my problems away for a night - probably not, but what if I'm doing it every night or most?  Perhaps there is a better more sustainable way.  Strengthen myself by overcoming issues in a positive manner.  Or even if the problems don't go away, strengthen myself to better deal with them.  Christians like the phrase: "The Lord won't give you more than you can handle."  I'd like to see what they are referencing because I don't believe it is true.  I think God allows us to be overwhelmed so we are forced to rely on Him.

 

8 hours ago, Dedicated said:

 

I can be abrasive and crass. I have felt hopeless and powerless most of my life and ultimately had to conclude that, that is just the way life is. It is extremely difficult to come to terms with these things on your own while everyone around you is like "just get over it. It's not that big of a deal." It was a big deal to me and if they can't appreciate or understand that or if I am just too sensitive then I should be euthanized because I simply am not strong enough to survive in this world and I HAVE TRIED MY ABSOLUTE BEST! The only way I've managed to maintain my sanity is by making a jokes out of things (not unlike Tyrion who I LOVE) because to me I see a lot of people talking about stuff with so much certainty, but it's all just a joke to me and I just can't help but laugh, because the only other option is to cry and I do enough of that already. 

People will never understand us because they haven't been through what we have.  They can be an aid but not the sole crutch.  Some has to come from within or above.  People like to appear certain because they feel empowered - they are fooling themselves or others.  I'm feeling pretty certain right now, but am I right?  Can't say.  That's where the faith comes in - believing when you don't know.

 

8 hours ago, Dedicated said:

 

Shout out to FBI detective Jeff Johnson who was in the St Louis MI office in 2016. 

 

[DojoToad]

I think that people who struggle more are being honest about their problems - acknowledging them, confronting.  People who seem to breeze through life may be burying/ignoring their problems behind the facade of having it all together.  Rand and Perrin struggled mightily where Mat just kind of breezed on through.  Serious problems for each but different tactics for dealing.

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

Hey, just wanted to say I appreciate you guys. 

 

Like the philosophical discussions - even from air chair college dropouts ?

 

It's a testiment to the quality of the WoT that it can spark such discussions. 

 

 

[Dedicated]

9 hours ago, DojoToad said:

I think that people who struggle more are being honest about their problems - acknowledging them, confronting.  People who seem to breeze through life may be burying/ignoring their problems behind the facade of having it all together.  Rand and Perrin struggled mightily where Mat just kind of breezed on through.  Serious problems for each but different tactics for dealing.

 

I don't know about Mat just breezing through. I think he had his own struggles but just handled them better. In fact I think Mat probably handled the struggles better than Perrin and Rand. Where Perrin and Rand struggled and agonized with the doubts Mat was just like, "man screw this, I'm going to see the world!" or "lets go to a bar get drunk and dance, cause life sucks so we better enjoy it as much as possible when and while we can." but then he'd always find himself in a fight. Mat was probably the wiser of the three in terms of dealing with the ebbs and flows of the pattern (purely debatable but this is my opinion on it). He sought out what he wanted and then did what he needed to do when he found himself in a situation he didn't want to be in. Demandred also points out at the Tarmon Gaidan that Lews Therin had overcome his weakness as a battle commander saying that before Lews Therin would agonize over choices while being hesitant before throwing up his hands and charging in carelessly. But of course he was never fighting Rand/Lews Therin, he was fighting Mat. 

 

I think Mat embodied the perfect balance of good and evil. Mat knew when to be bad and when to be good. He didn't let himself get too caught up in high morals or absolute truths. He let go and just flowed with the demands the pattern set for him while enjoying as much of it as he could. I think his distinctive black hat is an indication of this. Like maybe his mind was of the shadow, but his heart was with the light. And that's the best we can hope for as fundamentally flawed creatures in an uncaring neutral universe. Isn't it kind of curious that there is never any voice for the Creator? The creator is basically absent with the exception of peoples' belief that he existed; and that seemed to be enough for the light to win. 

 

Which kind of annoys me about god (assuming god actually exists). It's like god created us to suffer, but god doesn't give us suffering that we can't ultimately handle, but then suffering seems to be the ultimate goal. And then it's victim-blaming because we choose to defy god's commands in the garden, but at the same time that defiance was sort of inevitable? The many worlds theory and theories on the nature of consciousness offers some interesting answers to these problems as well, but who knows if any of this crap is truth on any level. 

[Dedicated]

8 hours ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

Hey, just wanted to say I appreciate you guys. 

 

Like the philosophical discussions - even from air chair college dropouts ?

 

It's a testiment to the quality of the WoT that it can spark such discussions. 

 

Yea I think any good story is one that is consistent and comprehensive in it's narrative enough to allow this type of discussion. It's a great platform for debating things we would otherwise never experience in real life, but that (seemingly) parallels real life experiences. Stories should carry some authenticity through it's narrative and thematic consistencies. 

[boldnbeautiful]

On 10/23/2021 at 10:15 AM, Skipp said:

 

The books ARE more about balance than good versus evil.  The ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai is a Ying-Yang symbol. 

 

You seriously missed the point of the book series. The Pattern is about the balance, not the book series. The book series is about the good triumphing over evil.  

 

Because of the human free will, there is the normal evil that balances with the good the Creator created is one of the major premises. The Dark One who is outside the Pattern increases evil upsetting the balance between good and evil. The Dragon's job is to seal up the Dark One who is upsetting the normal balance between the good and evil in the world.

[Dedicated]

47 minutes ago, boldnbeautiful said:

 

You seriously missed the point of the book series. The Pattern is about the balance, not the book series. The book series is about the good triumphing over evil.  

 

I don't think it's completely fair to claim Skipp "seriously missed the point of the book series." based on that sole quote.

 

But your explanation is a very good one. I had been trying to write about balance and wound up with a very long wall of text without a concise TL;DR to go with it so I could never post it. You made me realize what I was missing: the fact that the Creator sets an appropriate balance for us and the Dark One (DO) upsets that balance through his influence of the evil inherent in people. 

 

EDIT: I'd like to further toy with this idea.

 

Would you agree that the struggle between the Creator and the DO is like a super complex game of Chess with multiple Chess boards and the Creator has already made all of his moves while the DO makes his moves according to how the DO perceives the progress of the game?

 

Basically to me it seem like the Creator sets up all the pieces, imbues certain pieces with certain advantages and ultimately sets the fate of the battle between Good and Evil on the will of those special pieces. 

Edited October 30, 2021 by Dedicated
wanted to further explore

[boldnbeautiful]

12 minutes ago, Dedicated said:

Would you agree that the struggle between the Creator and the DO is like a super complex game of Chess with multiple Chess boards and the Creator has already made all of his moves while the DO makes his moves according to how the DO perceives the progress of the game?

 

Basically to me it seem like the Creator sets up all the pieces, imbues certain pieces with certain advantages and ultimately sets the fate of the battle between Good and Evil on the will of those special pieces. 

RJ used various religions and myths to create the Wheel of Time. Although he wanted to make sure that not one religion is over emphasized, RJ being a Christian and the fact that the Western Culture had 1,700 years of Christian influences, you cannot avoid an American author writing in English to not have Abrahamic religious views. Look at twelve clans of Aiel, Sea Folk, and others. Seven seals is straight out of the Book of Revelation. Aes Sedai means "servants"... just like Christians are to be servants. He used these high level concepts.

 

In the Eastern religions and philosophies, both good/light and evil/dark coexisted eternally (Yin and Yang). Basically, good and evil coexisted as separate entities. In Abrahamic religions, there is only one Creator/God and he created all as good. That means that the evil is not a separate entity, but an absence of good. Think of it as the light and darkness. The darkness is not a separate concrete existence, but nothing more than absence of light. Using this concept, the Creator/God has the ultimate power and there is no struggle between God and Satan. The struggle is between the humanity and Satan. More specifically, the humanity's free will to do good or evil vs Satan. 

 

RJ used more Abrahamic religion creationism mixed with Hinduism's reincarnation. The book introduced the Wheel that weaves the Great Pattern. It's a foreordained or predestined results just like the Abrahamic religion of the Creator's absolutism. The struggle is never between the Creator and Shaitan (Hebrew and Arabic name for Satan) because the Creator has created the Wheel that can offset anything Shaitan can do. The struggle is between the humanity and Shaitan.

 

Even RJ said that the Dark One can never win in the Wheel of Time. Even if the Dragon turned and fought for the Shadow, the Dark One cannot win or escape. It's just the draw and the Wheel will take next steps to restore balance which RJ never clarified.

 

The reason is because the Dark One is not a creator. If you look at agents of the Dark One, they are all part of the Pattern. 13 Forsaken were not created by the Dark One because he cannot create. He can only corrupt already created beings which means that all lives are dictated by the failsafe system that the Wheel weaved out to the Great Pattern. Rand follows the Light Prophesies and Ishamael follows the Dark Prophesies. Both Light and Dark Prophesies are part of the Great Pattern. 

 

I don't want to make it too long, so not sure if I am able to explain clearly. I hope I didn't confuse too much. 

[Dedicated]

I'll take it as a no then. No chess game here according to you. 

 

TL;DR: To me, a game of chess that spans multiple boards is an analogy for multiple patterns through which the Creator and the DO fight for dominance. The book series focuses on one pattern, but in reality it's happening in many different patterns (something that the Aes Sedai acknowledge, but don't really understand; like we don't really understand a lot about quantum mechanics and the many worlds theory). RJ was a trained physicist as well, lets not forget. So there is a scientific aspect to his story as well that shouldn't be ignored. The Creator ultimately sets or bets his win on his chosen few; his Ta'vareen and his Dragon and the only way the DO can ultimately win is by corrupting these people. That's kind of the balance to me in a nutshell. 

 

It's always been interesting to me that there is never a point when the Creator speaks to any of the characters, but we get a few times when the DO does. I think this is very telling on the nature of the struggle between the Creator and the DO. 

 

 

Religion aside there is some science-fiction elements to this story that aren't appreciated or talked about enough. Alternate timelines/parallel universes. Like when Rand uses the portal stones and sees alternate version of his life. There is also the whole matter of the nature of what exactly is going on with certain terangreal like the one used for raising a Novice to an accepted or the way that the Ways were created. 

 

I've heard this term of "the causal line being complete" to refer to the idea that from the moment of the big bang to the end of the universe everything is set and bound to happen: from certain celestial bodies forming, those bodies coming together to form other systems like solar systems or whatever, then right down to the people who are born, what they're lives will turn out to be and what they'll think or say at a certain point in time. I'm glossing over a lot of details here, but I hope you get the main idea. Determinism in some sense.

 

This deterministic nature coupled with the many worlds theory is what allows for variety through the free will exercised by people; and some of these people seem to have a special edge when it comes to the odds playing into their favor. 

 

That's why it seems like a chess game with multiple boards and the creator has already made all of his/her moves and basically just plays the DO's against itself because the DO's philosophy is one which is fundamentally unsustainable or something. 

 

[boldnbeautiful]

4 hours ago, Dedicated said:

It's always been interesting to me that there is never a point when the Creator speaks to any of the characters,

The Creator speaks twice in this book. The first time was in the Eye of the World. The second time is in the "aMoL" right as they enter the Pit of Doom. Both in the presence of his champion who is the Dragon.

 

This series utilize the theme "The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again." RJ loves to play truth or myth games. For example, most people will read the Portal Stone flicker flicker and interpret that as Rand experiencing different lives. Is it really? Each experience ends with "I have won again, Lews Therin". Where does this inner voice that sound like Ishamael come from? Did he really live or was it a trap set by Ishamael? It can even be mix of both. Half truths and half lies. 

 

This book series uses heavy foreshadowing and prophesies. It's hard to get away from pre-determination in the "prophesied Chosen One" genre. It implies some omnipotent or near ominipotent being in control directing world events.

 

[Dedicated]

10 hours ago, boldnbeautiful said:

The Creator speaks twice in this book. The first time was in the Eye of the World. The second time is in the "aMoL" right as they enter the Pit of Doom. Both in the presence of his champion who is the Dragon.

 

OMG. I totally missed this. I went to the WOT fandom page and as it described the second time the Creator spoke I have a vague recollection of it. 

 

10 hours ago, boldnbeautiful said:

This series utilize the theme "The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again." RJ loves to play truth or myth games. For example, most people will read the Portal Stone flicker flicker and interpret that as Rand experiencing different lives. Is it really? Each experience ends with "I have won again, Lews Therin". Where does this inner voice that sound like Ishamael come from? Did he really live or was it a trap set by Ishamael? It can even be mix of both. Half truths and half lies. 

 

I believe the "memories ... myths ... and legends" being referred to is the entire story all together and in the broadest, most general sense. Even our story. our time/age could be a faded memory that is only survived by the Mercede's Benz emblem found by one of the female protagonists at that museum in Tarabon (i think).  

 

What RJ is suggesting here is that maybe this story actually happens in some distant future or distant past... whose to say it didn't? Just kind of a writer's flare and color. I don't think it's much more than that and I don't think you can toss out the Portal Stone experiences or the experiences of the Accepted test out, and regard it as insignificant. The Aes Sedai aren't even sure if the experiences of the Accepted test are real or not. They even say it's debated on whether those places/events are real and happen in another world (ie: a parallel universe). There is some science fiction in this. It cannot be denied. 

 

The Portal Stone experiences, the experiences of the terangreal for becoming Accepted and the nature of the Ways are all debatable. I feel like the commonalities in the portal stone experiences and the Nature of the Ways and possibly the dream world could be related to mutiple worlds theories. Here's an interesting paragraph of the WOT fandom page on the creator:

 

Quote

Interestingly, Rand hypothesized at one point that if the Dark One did break free of its prison then only that one world would be affected, not all of time and space[verify] (in contradiction of other prophecies[verify]). He suggested that The Creator had created many worlds as a gardener had grown many grapes on a vine, and if one of the grapes shriveled and died, then the gardener would be regretful but would move on. Lews Therin Telamon, or at least the voice representing his personality within Rand's mind, seemed to agree with this conclusion.

 

I'm just getting over a wicked cold and it's a little hard to organize my thoughts right. Hopefully this makes sense though. 

[qlorin]

Wow excellent thread. I have a few words to say i hope my english is enough.

1)About God. First of all , in the books characters are not all-knowing beings. I think every character is wrong about concept of Creator/God in the books. There are two entities beyond weaving of the Wheel named as "Dark One and Creator/Light". In my opinion "Creator" name is a misconception by the characters in the books. The real Creator/God in our culture is named as "Wheel". Wheel weaves everything into the pattern of the ages except those two entities. That is not mean the Whell have no power over those two entites. It is just a choice of the Wheel to not weave them in to the pattern. There is no will over Wheel. We all know the quote. "Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills"

The character in the books often wrong about these concepts. From start , even most educated characters think Baalzamon is Dark One and they are mistaken. There is not a very complex religion or teological discussion in society. People just wish for some good powerful entity greater than Dark One and leave it there. If you replace the names Dark One/Devil and Wheel/God. It is copy paste of western/biblical/islamic/judaich concepts. (Devil/Dark One trying to break free and destroy God/Wheel and its creations). 

2)About destroying Dark One and free will. I think Rand thinking he can kill/destroy Dark One is false. I am not talking about ability to kill. He is a ta'veren he has no choice in the matter. He is forced by the Wheel all the way to that point. 3000 years of people killed countires cities destroyed battles fought all of it for this moment. He has no free will about killing/destroying Dark One.

Actually in this book series free will is not free at all. There are some small choices but not much. There are prophecies must come true whatever characters do. There are future wievings of Min whatever characters do they can not change. Outcome of the battle between Dark One and Rand was predetermined. We know this beacuse there are some wievings of Min which will be fulfiled after the battle. Rand has no free will about to give or take free will to/from people. There is only one will. Let all say again "Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills". (I feel like i am starting a cult here).

3)About Good and Evil. The duality concept is everwhere in the books. The idea i get from books every thing has two forms "whole/complete form" and "split/broken form".  Broken forms are weak/lesser. You can use two broken forms together which is more powerful/great. If you can use it in "complete form" it is much more powerful than two broken parts used together"

Saidar and Saidin both powerful. If you use them together you can do much greater things than using only one. If you combine them you get One power (complete form) which is much greater than Saidin or Saidar or both used by different channelers at the same time.

One power have its counter part "True Power" which is what Moridin uses in last battle and described as much much much powerful than Saidin or Saidar or both used at the same time. If you use "One power" and "True Power" together you can undo the bore to perfect conditon. If you somehow combine them you get "Willpower" which is what Rand used to lit the pipe. He had no Saidin or Saidar or True Power. He had all of them combined which needs only "will" things to happen. Much powerful/greater then all of them. Which is a part of the Wheel beacuse let shout to the heavens "Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills". (yeap this is definetly going to be a cult)

Good and Evil is just two "broken form" of something much greater than them. They are not perfect they are flawed. Using only one is not enough tell even a basic story. If you use both of them together you can create "pattern of the ages" a great story. What if somehow combine them. Something greater than all the stories and lives of people. If you combine everything to the end you will get to the perfect being which is The Wheel.

 

Edited November 2, 2021 by qlorin

[boldnbeautiful]

On 10/25/2021 at 5:28 AM, Dedicated said:

To be fair my belief in an absolute, objective Truth being dependent on the existence of God (my definition/conception of God) is really just me giving this "Entity" authority to define it because I do not believe that I or anyone else is capable of doing so. So it's kind of a copout.

Most people interchange "free will" with the "autonomy" and confuse themselves. The word "autonomy" means self-law (auto=self, nomas=law). Basically, it means that I make my own laws and don't want deal with consequences either. The free will is where you exercise you will within boundaries of both body and mind, and willingness to take responsibilities.

 

The basis of the authority in Christianity/Judaism/Islam is the Creator just like the Wheel of Time. It's his universe, so he sets laws. You make not like it, so you want exercise your autonomy and that's the story of Adam and Eve. They want to "be like God" and determine what is good and evil for themselves. God gave them this free will, but did give them autonomy because Adam and Eve must live together. They don't want laws that God created (that's the meaning the "let them be light means".. light=illuminations), so they want to create their own laws. The problem is that Adam and Eve are not gods, they are humans... if Adam and Eve both wanted autonomy there wouldn't be Cain (evil), Abel (good), Seth (hope), and numerous other children (continuation).  ?

 

In any communal living, the autonomy is detrimental. In fact, no humans can live and exercise the autonomy. All human beings live with both physical and mental limitations. 

 

If you don't want to there to be God/Creator, then it's the survival of the fittest. The might makes good.

[Dedicated]

On 11/1/2021 at 10:58 PM, qlorin said:

1)About God. First of all , in the books characters are not all-knowing beings. I think every character is wrong about concept of Creator/God in the books. ... The real Creator/God in our culture is named as "Wheel". Wheel weaves everything into the pattern of the ages except those two entities. That is not mean the Whell have no power over those two entites. It is just a choice of the Wheel to not weave them in to the pattern. There is no will over Wheel. We all know the quote. "Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills"

...

There is not a very complex religion or teological discussion in society. People just wish for some good powerful entity greater than Dark One and leave it there. 

 

This is interesting. If I understand you correctly, you argue that we mistakenly view the "Wheel" a cosmic mechanism created by the "Creator", when the Wheel itself IS the "Creator"? I'm not sure if I agree, but it's a perspective I had not considered before.

 

You bring up another point that I failed to truly appreciate. The characters really don't have a clear definition of god while in real life so many are prepared to end relationships with each other and debate over very minor aspects of god. The characters in the books seem to be a lot more rational in this sense.  This is honestly my conception of God. God to me is just perfect wisdom, love, compassion, intellect etc. Nothing more than the highest form of perfection that I cannot even begin to truly fathom. I can only hope that this entity is guiding me. 

 

On 11/1/2021 at 10:58 PM, qlorin said:

...
From start , even most educated characters think Baalzamon is Dark One and they are mistaken.

...

 

I believe you are mistaken here but I could be misunderstanding your point. "Baalzamon" is apparently the Trolloc word for "Heart of the Dark". It's more of a title than anything. Unless you're referring to Ishamael (ie: Elan). 

 

On 11/1/2021 at 10:58 PM, qlorin said:

...Actually in this book series free will is not free at all...

 

Actually in real life free will might not be free will. This would be a very long discussion so I'll just leave it at that. And to be honest I'm not even sure I really want to open this can of worms. 

 

On 11/1/2021 at 10:58 PM, qlorin said:

One power have its counter part "True Power" which is what Moridin uses in last battle and described as much much much powerful than Saidin or Saidar or both used at the same time. If you use "One power" and "True Power" together you can undo the bore to perfect conditon. If you somehow combine them you get "Willpower" which is what Rand used to lit the pipe. He had no Saidin or Saidar or True Power. He had all of them combined which needs only "will" things to happen. Much powerful/greater then all of them. Which is a part of the Wheel beacuse let shout to the heavens "Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills". (yeap this is definetly going to be a cult)

 

Yea, I'm not sure how I feel about this point. It was a cool moment to see Rand interacting with reality in a way that is similar to the way dreamers can exert their will in the dream world. It's almost as if Rand had achieved a level of existence beyond the pattern or reality. It is interesting to consider that the "power" Rand seems to wield at the end is something like a combination of the True Power and the One Power. 

 

I'm not sure I really understand the nature of the DO and the Creator. It seems to echo the Christian idea that there is the "Creator" who created everything including Satan and Satan can never overcome the Abrahamic God because Satan's power derives from it etc. Or at least this is how it was argued by C.S. Lewis in Mere Christianity. I read it a few years ago.

 

19 hours ago, boldnbeautiful said:

... You make not like it, so you want exercise your autonomy and that's the story of Adam and Eve. They want to "be like God" and determine what is good and evil for themselves. 

 

To be fair, Eve was tempted with godhood. I'm not sure if Adam was fully aware of the consequences of eating the forbidden fruit. 

 

19 hours ago, boldnbeautiful said:

If you don't want to there to be God/Creator, then it's the survival of the fittest. The might makes good.

 

This is exactly why I want there to be a God. survival of the fittest is fine for animals, but I like to think of myself and humanity as having greater potential than this. We're the first creatures that we know of with the ability to shape our environment in such a way that it shapes our future evolution and we seem to be trending towards a collectivist society with individuality dying. We need to care more about our philosophy and really live by our beliefs because it is the beliefs we live by that will determine the shape of our future. 

Edited November 3, 2021 by Dedicated