Why was Lews Therin Telamon reborn?

[SinisterDeath]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unreliable_narrator

Graendal also doesn't know the inner workings of the universe as well as she may think, could be lying. Hell the forsaken thought healing those severed was impossible. ? 

Also recall that Ishy's statements completely contradict Graendal's thoughts on the matter. 

[DJH]

20 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unreliable_narrator

Graendal also doesn't know the inner workings of the universe as well as she may think, could be lying. Hell the forsaken thought healing those severed was impossible. ? 

Also recall that Ishy's statements completely contradict Graendal's thoughts on the matter. 

Does Ishamael provide an explanation as to why the messiah—in this case, LTT—is prophesied and reborn—in this case, as Rand?

 

We can’t trust the forsaken. But graendal seems baffled by the prophesy and rebirth. Ishamael says a messiah has been spun and reborn thousands of times.

 

who to believe? Either way, we don’t have a reason.

 

That’s the knowledge I’m searching for.

 

As far as the title “dragon,” Ishameal is the one who says in the book that the messiah—in this case, LTT—was given that title during the age.

 

Other cultures referred to the reborn messiah with different titles. The title “dragon” seems to be unique to this iteration of the 2nd and 3rd age. In other words, the messiah spun out to deal with the DO may not always be called “dragon.”

 

Furthermore, we can’t say for certain that a messiah is always spun out in the 2nd age and reborn in the 3rd age. It seems like that’s the case, but there’s just enough ambiguity that we can’t say for certain.

[SinisterDeath]

12 minutes ago, DJH said:

Other cultures referred to the reborn messiah with different titles. The title “dragon” seems to be unique to this iteration of the 2nd and 3rd age. In other words, the messiah spun out to deal with the DO may not always be called “dragon.”

RJ's words mention that the "Dragon" is a literal connection to the Land that goes beyond Ta'varen, and that the Dragon is recycled in other iterations. The "Name" might change but that connection is different.

E.g. in our reality, we call it that connection the Fisher King, which is related to King Arthur.  In Randland, it's "the Dragon", and LTT/Rand.
 

 

15 minutes ago, DJH said:

Furthermore, we can’t say for certain that a messiah is always spun out in the 2nd age and reborn in the 3rd age. It seems like that’s the case, but there’s just enough ambiguity that we can’t say for certain.

There is definitely ambiguity because there is a lot of contradictory elements to this world building when related to Cyclical Time.

Should peruse this thread in regards to circular time within WoT.

 

[Sabio]

LTT soul can be reborn and not have to be the dragon.  Hawkwing metioned how he had fought LTT countless times.  So it's unlikely LTT soul only comes when a dragon is needed.  it could be LTT's soul will always be reborn to be important or play key roles but seems unlikely he might not reborn for thousand of years until a dragon is needed.

 

Only Ishy seemed to have a grasp of what was really going on, Rand and him meaat to fight it out over and over.  You noticed a few times the other Forsaken mentioned his claims about how this has happened over and over and they really didn't believe him.  They didn't even understand what it meant, as you saw time and again they assumed LTT being reborn meant LTT was back, and not simply his soul would be in a new body and controlled by Rand.  

 

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

 

RJ was quite adamant that cyclical time in WoT is truly cyclical, yet allowed small changes which is contradictory to cyclical time.

 

I see it as it's cyclical in that specific events happen every time.  The Seal is whole, people must forget the DO exists, the hole gets drilled and there is a breaking, Dragon is reborn and seals prison.  What happens in between can vary and the amount of time between each event is never the same.  But the main events will happen again and again.

Edited June 18, 2021 by Sabio

[SinisterDeath]

19 minutes ago, Sabio said:

LTT soul can be reborn and not have to be the dragon.  Hawkwing metioned how he had fought LTT countless times.  So it's unlikely LTT soul only comes when a dragon is needed.

I believe I've said something similar just worded differently above?

 

 

19 minutes ago, Sabio said:

seems unlikely he might not reborn for thousand of years until a dragon is needed.

Definitely! It would be interesting to know if he/rand was reborn sometime between the breaking and the beginning of the novels.

 

 

20 minutes ago, Sabio said:

Only Ishy seemed to have a grasp of what was really going on, Rand and him meaat to fight it out over and over.  You noticed a few times the other Forsaken mentioned his claims about how this has happened over and over and they really didn't believe him. 

It's understandable why they are skeptical, he was quite mad until he got his new body. Even in his new body he was fatalist and just wanted the entire universe to cease to exist. He was "tired" of existence.

 

22 minutes ago, Sabio said:

I see it as it's cyclical in that specific events happen every time.  The Seal is whole, people must forget the DO exists, the hole gets drilled and there is a breaking, Dragon is reborn and seals prison.  What happens in between can vary and the amount of time between each event is never the same.  But the main events will happen again and again.

Anything could happen between the 4th age and the 1st age and it wouldn't matter to the story of the 2nd/3rd ages that we know.

But even then within this cyclical time loop, the events of the 5th age would always happen, just like the events of the 2nd & 3rd always happen. How long an age lasts, seems to maybe vary?

[Harldin]

_{The only issue i can see with Hawkwing being the Dragon is, he would be both leading the Heroes of the Horn and being Rand at the same time.}

[SinisterDeath]

17 minutes ago, Harldin said:

_{The only issue i can see with Hawkwing being the Dragon is, he would be both leading the Heroes of the Horn and being Rand at the same time.}

Who said anything about Hawking being the dragon?

[Harldin]

44 minutes ago, Harldin said:

_{The only issue i can see with Hawkwing being the Dragon is, he would be both leading the Heroes of the Horn and being Rand at the same time.}

ooops?
The only issue i have with writing comments out when still half asleep i get different characters mixed up. How i got Hawkwing is one of those great mysteries 

[SinisterDeath]

3 minutes ago, Harldin said:

ooops?
The only issue i have with writing comments out when still half asleep i get different characters mixed up. How i got Hawkwing is one of those great mysteries 

Let's blame @Sabio?
 

[DJH]

5 hours ago, Sabio said:

LTT soul can be reborn and not have to be the dragon.  Hawkwing metioned how he had fought LTT countless times.  So it's unlikely LTT soul only comes when a dragon is needed.  it could be LTT's soul will always be reborn to be important or play key roles but seems unlikely he might not reborn for thousand of years until a dragon is needed.

 

hm. Excellent points. I went back and looked at the relevant text and it’s still ambiguous. Does AH know LTT because LTT is a hero tied to the wheel (like him) or does he know LTT because LTT summons him with the horn repeatedly throughout the ages. 
 

for example, when he says “I have fought along your side countless times  and faced you as many more.”

 

he *could* mean via the horn. Sometimes AH and the heroes have been called with the horn by the light and sometimes by the shadow. (However in the last book, it is said the heroes of the horn would never fight for the shadow.)

 

having said that, it seem like LTT (or at least his soul) is a hero of the horn that is spun out into the pattern as the pattern sees fit. 
 

AH says when May asks if 100 is all the heroes “you could tell him LTT if you could remember when you wore flesh.”   
 

(shouldn’t that say “when you *last* wore flesh...)

 

Anyhow, haha, it’s all still pretty unclear. The soul of LTT/Rand seems to be a hero tide to the pattern which is spun out throughout the ages like AH. Sometimes they battle each other sometimes not. 
 

rand says he recognizes ALL the heroes and each of them has “a hundred” names. So LTT/Rand probably have a hundred different  names too. 
 

but why in this instance was the soul of LTT/Rand prophesied and reborn with memories retained, we still don’t know. It must have been what the pattern needed based on the bore and DO. 
 

 

[DJH]

Two things:

 

I can’t believe the seanchan were introduced so early in the series (book 2) but we only meet tuon closer to the end. Would have loved more of tuon and mat honestly. 
 

I think the overall plot was VERY fluid in the first several books. The identity of Ba-alzamon and Ishamael, the nature of Mat and his memories (there are hints that he was shaping up to be a reborn hero too, but then RJ moved away from that), and this issue with LTT/Rand being reborn and then as the series progressed reincarnation became a pretty central them, not just the heroes.

 

anyhow the prophecy/rebirth of LTT/Rand is still unique. Seems tied to  the DO, and the opening, sealing, resealing of the bore. 

[Sabio]

LTT is unique because not only will he come out again to be a main player but he is also one of the super rare souls to be linked to another soul.  I'm curious if LTT is a hero of the horn if that means so is Ishy?   Since LTT doesn't have to be good and Ishy doesn't have to be bad if they are linked to be champions in the Last Battle it should mean Ishy is also a Hero of the Horn.  I see it as both the Shadow and Light need a champion so somehow LTT and Ishy became the chosen.  Which would be this eternal struggle was planned from the beginning.

43 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Let's blame @Sabio?
 

I accept full blame.  

 

[SinisterDeath]

25 minutes ago, DJH said:

hm. Excellent points. I went back and looked at the relevant text and it’s still ambiguous. Does AH know LTT because LTT is a hero tied to the wheel (like him) or does he know LTT because LTT summons him with the horn repeatedly throughout the ages. 

 

The confirmation was this

 

We know that there are only ever 100 heroes bound to the horn at any one time. So when a soul is born to live again, another hero bound to the horn in its stead. 
So When Rand/LTT are bound to the horn at a later date, sometimes Artur and LTT/Rand are bound at the same time. Sometimes they aren't. 

 

There was also mentions of heroes being "archetypes", Artur, Arthur, Lancelot, Gilgamesh, etc.

 

Some other relevant interview answers.

24 minutes ago, DJH said:

(there are hints that he was shaping up to be a reborn hero too, but then RJ moved away from that),

They do refer to him as the gambler. Mat/Rand being potential heroes of the horn, have no bearing on the heroes the horn can summon. It just means they can potentially hang out in T'A'R together when bound, reminiscing about how little each other know about women.

 

25 minutes ago, DJH said:

anyhow the prophecy/rebirth of LTT/Rand is still unique. Seems tied to  the DO, and the opening, sealing, resealing of the bore. 

Unique for what we know of the wheel of time universe. We know but a 3? year span of time within an infinite number of cycles.

RJ has reused much of our own mythology, legends, and theology within the Wheel of Time. We have a lot of prophesized heroes that are reborn.
King Arthur is slumbering away the years, awaiting the day that England needs him again.


 

[SinisterDeath]

3 minutes ago, Sabio said:

I'm curious if LTT is a hero of the horn if that means so is Ishy?  

 

My guess is that it's possible Ishy's soul could be a hero at some point, but not the Ishy's soul we know. 

It also begs the question. When Rand Dies, will he be LTT in T'A'R or Rand when/if he's bound to the Horn in future years?

[Sabio]

Ahh thank you, that was some good reading.  

[DJH]

Yes, thanks so much for the resources, both of you. 
 

remember that before Ishy was Ishy, ba-alzamon, and Moridin, he was Elan. A very powerful channeler; I think as powerful as Rand/LTT.

 

If he’s not a hero of the horn, I’m not sure how he would have faced LTT/Rand “thousands of times.” (Need to find the relevant source for that.)

 

it couldn’t have been in the 3,000 year period in the book’s 2nd and 3rd ages. He could be referring to other 2nd and 3rd ages, or just other ages altogether. 
 

I need to read about the nature of their connection. They seemed to be connected pre-balefire crossing, but that made things go wacky. And then of course the ending. 

[Harldin]

7 hours ago, DJH said:

Two things:

 

I can’t believe the seanchan were introduced so early in the series (book 2) but we only meet tuon closer to the end. Would have loved more of tuon and mat honestly. 
 

I think the overall plot was VERY fluid in the first several books. The identity of Ba-alzamon and Ishamael, the nature of Mat and his memories (there are hints that he was shaping up to be a reborn hero too, but then RJ moved away from that), and this issue with LTT/Rand being reborn and then as the series progressed reincarnation became a pretty central them, not just the heroes.

 

anyhow the prophecy/rebirth of LTT/Rand is still unique. Seems tied to  the DO, and the opening, sealing, resealing of the bore. 

It was originally only going to be a Trilogy at no time did RJ mean it to be a 14 Book series, even at the time of his passing he only intended one more book. It was Brandon who turned the last book into 3, personally i think it was the right decision.

 

Personally i think there is enough of Mat and Tuon and bringing back the Seanchon earlier would have resulted in a major change to Mats Storyline, he needed to do Rhuidean and Carhien before going to Ebu Dar, Nynaeve and co needed to do the Bowl of the Winds before Tuon and the Seanchans arrival. 

Not sure how you introduce Tuon any earlier without throwing a massive Spanner in the works story wise.

[DJH]

9 hours ago, Harldin said:

Not sure how you introduce Tuon any earlier without throwing a massive Spanner in the works story wise.

i don’t want to get the thread OT, but my understanding is RJ’s wife was doing the editing in the early books.

 

there’s multiple story arches that span thousands of words and dozens of chapters that could have been drastically edited down.

 

the books could have been shorter, fewer, or more time could have been spent on other story arches.

 

obviously, this opinion is subjective but it is shared by others.

 

I even feel that way about the last three books. I felt like so much was crammed into AMOL that could have been covered in more depth in the previous two. We didn’t need to spend so much time on Elayne and Camelyn as the ultimately had very little to do with what was essentially the culmination of a 14 book series and the long-time-coming last battle. It was like shuffling deck chairs on the titanic. We spent a whole book on Elayne and Camelyn only to have it literally burn down the next book lol. 

[Harldin]

14 hours ago, DJH said:

i don’t want to get the thread OT, but my understanding is RJ’s wife was doing the editing in the early books.

 

there’s multiple story arches that span thousands of words and dozens of chapters that could have been drastically edited down.

 

the books could have been shorter, fewer, or more time could have been spent on other story arches.

 

obviously, this opinion is subjective but it is shared by others.

 

I even feel that way about the last three books. I felt like so much was crammed into AMOL that could have been covered in more depth in the previous two. We didn’t need to spend so much time on Elayne and Camelyn as the ultimately had very little to do with what was essentially the culmination of a 14 book series and the long-time-coming last battle. It was like shuffling deck chairs on the titanic. We spent a whole book on Elayne and Camelyn only to have it literally burn down the next book lol. 

To get Tuon in earlier you are going to have to do a major re-write of several books, Rand has to find Salidar first and he is to busy at first in Carhien and Caemlyn , Mat is not ready to go to Salidar until he has the Band a going concern, there is also Avienha with Rand before she goes to Salidar. The leadership in Salidar are not going to allow Nynaeve, Elayne, Mat and co to go to Ebu Dar, it takes Egwene being raised to the Amyrlin Seat and raising them to the Shawl for that to happen. 
 

How are you going to do Mat and Tuon to increase there Page Count? The story of there flight from Ebu Dar is a big one as is.

Sorry i just think that any earlier appearance by Tuon in the Westlands just changes the story to much

You cant have Tuon and the Seanchan turning up till the Bowl is found and used and everyone escapes. You basically have to re-write 2-3 books and bring a lot of things forward for that to happen. 

[DJH]

9 hours ago, Harldin said:

To get Tuon in earlier you are going to have to do a major re-write of several books, Rand has to find Salidar first and he is to busy at first in Carhien and Caemlyn , Mat is not ready to go to Salidar until he has the Band a going concern, there is also Avienha with Rand before she goes to Salidar. The leadership in Salidar are not going to allow Nynaeve, Elayne, Mat and co to go to Ebu Dar, it takes Egwene being raised to the Amyrlin Seat and raising them to the Shawl for that to happen. 
 

How are you going to do Mat and Tuon to increase there Page Count? The story of there flight from Ebu Dar is a big one as is.

Sorry i just think that any earlier appearance by Tuon in the Westlands just changes the story to much

You cant have Tuon and the Seanchan turning up till the Bowl is found and used and everyone escapes. You basically have to re-write 2-3 books and bring a lot of things forward for that to happen. 

Books 7-10 could benefit from a major re-write to be honest. There are absolutely important, cool, and fun plot points that take place in those books, but it’s also true that the story in those 4 books meanders, stagnates, and is repetitive.

 

Those 4 books are responsible for keeping many a poor soul from finishing the series.

 

Tuon is one of the cooler, unique characters. Many of the female characters are, let’s be honest, indistinguishable from one another. All  gorgeous, white, know-it-all, and nagging.

 

Tuon is a breath of fresh air. Would have LOVED much, much more page time given to her.

 

But now we are waaay off topic. Cheers!

 

edit: one of my favorite “scenes” from the ENTIRE series, and one of the best written, is Tuon’s and Rand first interaction. 

Edited June 20, 2021 by DJH

[Olliwand]

As far as Ishamael telling Rand that he had sometimes resisted and sometimes not, we KNOW that to be false.  Had the dragon ever failed or succumbed to the shadow the pattern would have been destroyed and this age would never have come to pass.  Ishamael was either lying or insane and had false memories.