Potential Character Combos...

[Elder_Haman]

As much as we'd all love it if no characters were sacrificed, it's clearly impossible. So, just for fun, what are your ideas for characters who could be combined. Here are three ideas:

 

(1) Min + Hurin

Hurin is needed only for his ability to track Padan Fain. But Min's viewings are flexible enough where the writers could substitute her. Bonus: the relationship between Min and Rand can develop on screen rather than being based on a single quick interaction.

 

(2) Dena + Aludra

Aludra is a low-key critical character, who sort of bounces around on the margins of the story. Giving her a relationship with Thom (maybe making them a performing team) gets her into the story in a less random way and makes her potentially more memorable when she pops up later on.

 

(3) The Bornhalds

The whole Dain/Geofram thing is unnecessary. A single Bornhald makes more sense for the tv series.

 

What do y'all think?

[mistborn82]

I like the Min combo because most relationships in the books were forced to one degree or another so making them feel more natural would be good.

If Aludra and Thom have a relationship it has to be in the past as if the show makes it that long, Moraine and Thom will be a thing and the AS and the man who hates Aes Sedai would be a story line.

 

[Thrasymachus]

I don't really agree with any of those combos.  Aside from tracking Fain, which Perrin could do, and does take over doing, Hurin eventually serves the role of shaking Darth Rand out of his paranoia, and part of what eventually leads him to his Dragonmount epiphany.  Min is never in a position to take that place.  You gotta have someone who trusts Rand implicitly and is unwaveringly loyal to him early on, who Rand then doesn't see again until his darkness, paranoia and insanity is at a breaking point.  Min is with Rand almost the entire time after he leaves the Waste and sets up in Cairhein.  She's too close to him and too present in his life to play the same role Hurin does.  And she doesn't really need any additional help setting up or justifying her relationship with Rand.  Quite aside from the Viewings which make it not really a choice anyway, she spends the most time with him out of any of the Three.

 

Dena's role is to justify Thom's killing the King of Cairhein.  Aludra's role is to be the repository of Illuminator knowledge, and the source of the dragons, with a bit of a romantic tease for Mat.  But for destiny, Mat would probably have rather chosen Aludra over Tuon.  And destiny vs free-will is a big theme of the series and show.  Dena has to die to play her role.  Aludra has to live.  There's no room, or reason, to combine Dena with Aludra or anybody else.

 

Likewise, Dain's focus on capturing Perrin is motivated by his father Geofram's death.  Without that death, Dain lacks the motivation to pursue Perrin as relentlessly as he does, or stick it out in the Two Rivers as long as the Whitecloaks do.  And it's important for Dain to not be present for the events which leads to Geofram's initial capture of Perrin and the events that lead to Geofram's death, instead hearing about it second-hand through Byar.  That's what sets up the possibility of his ultimate character growth in becoming Perrin's ally, even more than his loyalty to Galad.

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, Thrasymachus said:

I don't really agree with any of those combos.  Aside from tracking Fain, which Perrin could do, and does take over doing, Hurin eventually serves the role of shaking Darth Rand out of his paranoia, and part of what eventually leads him to his Dragonmount epiphany.  Min is never in a position to take that place.  You gotta have someone who trusts Rand implicitly and is unwaveringly loyal to him early on, who Rand then doesn't see again until his darkness, paranoia and insanity is at a breaking point.  Min is with Rand almost the entire time after he leaves the Waste and sets up in Cairhein.  She's too close to him and too present in his life to play the same role Hurin does.  And she doesn't really need any additional help setting up or justifying her relationship with Rand.  Quite aside from the Viewings which make it not really a choice anyway, she spends the most time with him out of any of the Three.

 

 

I agree with all of this from the standpoint of the story - as it is told by the books. But I don't think you'll be able to necessarily tell that exact same story. More like a 'mirror world' version of the story, if you will.

 

Hurin is a character ripe for cutting. While I agree with you that his role at the end made sense in the story it didn't have to be Hurin who did it. Only - like you say - someone who is implicitly and unwaveringly loyal to Rand. For purposes of the tv show, getting through to Darth Rand can (and let's be honest, will) be tasked to someone more central. It's not going to be good tv for Rand's salvation to fall to a character that no one has seen for three seasons. 

 

As for Min - you are right in that she essentially had no choice but to fall for Rand. But that is hard to convey on screen, as opposed to in her mind like Jordan does.  Since she is so central to the story, I think you want viewers to engage with her from early on so they can see and experience her banter with Rand in a way you can't really achieve on screen.

 

Min's first appearance in the books is very brief and would amount to a scene, maybe two, before disappearing for a good long time. She's not reunited with Rand until long after that. That reunion is important because Rand has such fond memories for her based on their past encounter. But that past encounter won't have much meaning for viewers. If you give her a whole season with Rand in place of Hurin though - the whole relationship will be much more impactful on the screen.

 

14 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

Dena's role is to justify Thom's killing the King of Cairhein.  Aludra's role is to be the repository of Illuminator knowledge, and the source of the dragons, with a bit of a romantic tease for Mat.  But for destiny, Mat would probably have rather chosen Aludra over Tuon.  And destiny vs free-will is a big theme of the series and show.  Dena has to die to play her role.  Aludra has to live.  There's no room, or reason, to combine Dena with Aludra or anybody else.

 

Dena doesn't have to die to play her role. Thom just has to believe she's dead. Why couldn't the king being blamed for the explosion at the illuminator's chapter house - presumably killing Dena/Aludra - serve the same function? Again, this gives the audience a chance to really develop an affinity for the character (by bringing her in early on). It leaves plenty of room for a love triangle with Tuon. But this one will have a little more impact because viewers would have a longer, more intimate relationship with the character.

 

26 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

Likewise, Dain's focus on capturing Perrin is motivated by his father Geofram's death.  Without that death, Dain lacks the motivation to pursue Perrin as relentlessly as he does, or stick it out in the Two Rivers as long as the Whitecloaks do.  And it's important for Dain to not be present for the events which leads to Geofram's initial capture of Perrin and the events that lead to Geofram's death, instead hearing about it second-hand through Byar.  That's what sets up the possibility of his ultimate character growth in becoming Perrin's ally, even more than his loyalty to Galad.

 

I grant this one would require changing a character arc. I think there was a lot of untapped potential in the Whitecloaks. This would definitely require a more substantial rewrite of their role. Although, I think Fain's influence could preserve Dain's arc if he begins as sympathetic toward Perrin, is corrupted by Fain, and is then redeemed.

 

Are there any combination characters you'd consider? I get the sense you're hoping for an adaptation that tends more toward the literal than towards major changes.

[Thrasymachus]

I don't disagree that Hurin could be cut, but there's also no reason to replace him.  Particularly with Min.  For one thing, it completely changes the dynamic of events with Selene in the mirror worlds and through to Cairhein afterwaards.  Min's Viewing is plenty of motivation for her to seek out Rand.  And she spends literal weeks with him up in the mountains at the beginning of The Dragon Reborn, before he runs off to prove to himself and the world whether he's really the Dragon Reborn.  Those just need to be made more explicit.  After that, she's manipulated by Moiraine and then other Aes Sedai into being apart from Rand, largely because she doesn't know where he is.  Once she does, she does everything she can to beeline straight to him.  It's a classic "absence makes the heart grow fonder" trope.  That's the real motivation for her relationship with Rand.  A viewing that she's tentative about accepting, leading to her spending a bit of time with Rand and falling for him, then an absence from him which motivates every other early contribution to the story as she wants to get back to him, and deepens her desire to be with him.  The mistake is thinking that just because she's not with Rand, that the audience won't get to spend time with her, or understand her love for Rand.  I don't think that's justified.

Thom is too good a player of the Great Game to go off and do something as drastic as killing a King over an assumption.  He sees Dena's body, and learns who the perpetrator is after nearly catching his henchmen in the act.  He's not going to kill Galladrian for a rumor.  It also doesn't contribute anything to set up a love triangle between Mat, Thom and Aludra.  It just puts a wedge between Mat and Thom, when doing so would simply make things more complicated for no good reason or payoff.  Particularly when Thom, later on, when Mat is tied to Tuon, would have to dump her for Moiraine anyway.  Let Dena die, so Thom can be the morose character he needs to be for the rest of the series until Moiraine's rescue, and if anything, let Aludra hook up with Talmanes after Mat breaks her heart.  There are plenty of characters who's only role is to die.  Dena.  Pevin.  Herid Fel.  Fedwin Morr.  Those character's deaths aren't a waste.  They are essential to show the stakes and motivate the characters that survive.

 

And Dain's character arc, and the Whitecloak redemption storyline, are already excellent.  Having Dain be the sympathetic character towards Perrin, who's then corrupted by Fain, doesn't make any sense.  Fain's touch is irredeemable.  Nobody who suffers it gets better or gets redeemed.  It's not possible barring intervention by Aes Sedai Healing, if then.  Dain is able to be redeemed because he is not present for the events which cause Byar to condemn Perrin.  If he were present, he would have no grounds to question his understanding of those event.  Perrin is definitely guilty of killing those two Whitecloaks.  But the legal context of that is that it's not worthy of execution.  Dain is only capable of accepting that because he wasn't present for his father's death in Falme, and heard of everything secondhand through Byar.  If he were there for those events, then he's either going to start questioning things much earlier, too early, or be calcified in his opinions, with no realistic way to overcome them.

 

There's plenty of characters who's roles I think could be reduced or cut entirely.  Berelain could probably be cut, or her role combined with Alliandre's.  Asunawa and Valda could be combined.  Leilwin and Cerandin could probably be combined, or Cerandin could be cut.  Domon could probably be combined with Juilin Sandar if necessary, though it's probably better if Domon were just cut, along with Egeanin.  But you don't just cut characters or combine them just because you think you can, or that it would be interesting to tell a different story with the mashup.  An adaptation needs to identify the important main themes and events explored by the material it's adapting, and then faithfully re-tell or show those themes and events in the same light as the original material.  Things can be cut.  Lesser themes can be dropped.  Side-plots or side-stories can be cut.  But you don't do it willy-nilly or just because you think you have to, to save time.  Bad adaptations try to tell their own stories, and are not faithful to the characters and themes of the original material, from Eragon to Avatar the Last Airbender.  Good adaptations, like Lord of the Rings, knows that they can cut things like Tom Bombadill, because it's not at all important for showing the main themes and character development of the beloved original material.

[Elder_Haman]

6 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:Good adaptations, like Lord of the Rings, knows that they can cut things like Tom Bombadill, because it's not at all important for showing the main themes and character development of the beloved original material.

I completely agree. LotR is a “good adaptation”, but it changed several major things - for example Faramir’s character in that movie bears only passing resemblance to Tolkien’s version. The same is obviously true of Arwen. Heck, they even completely changed Frodo and Sam’s journey into Mordor. 
 

I guess changes are in the eye of the beholder. Personally, I’d rather keep Egeanin and Domon. 

[Thrasymachus]

Calling Sam and Frodo's journey a complete change is a bit of a stretch.  They changed it some, but only to play up the themes from the relationship that were already present in the text, and make for better viewing drama.  Likewise with Faramir and Arwen.  Some aspects of their characters were changed, but only to play up other already present aspects of the story that were more important for the visual retelling.   The important thing is that the Lord of the Rings movies didn't tell stories that weren't present in the books, or introduce themes that weren't present in the books. 

 

Stuff was cut, Bombadill being one of the more prominent examples, but I would also argue that the Scourging of the Shore was a bigger, more important cut.  But it was also a story that wasn't really needed.  The Scourging of the Shire as the ultimate adventure of the four hobbits is an important story in the books; it cements the four hobbits as heroes of not just the world, but of their own people as well, and sets up their leadership there as natural and accepted from that point on. 

 

But for the visual retelling, it's not necessary.  It's enough for them to be heroes of the world, while their own people carry on as they always have, untouched by the trials of the wider world.  We don't really need to see how three of the four go on to become respected leaders of their communities, or how the hobbits of the Shire are changed by the events and indirect consequences of the War, and it's more thematically consistent if they remain untouched anyway.  The Heroes get to come Home, as they remember it and have longed for.  We don't need the story about how warriors never really get to go home after a war, because the war changes them and it changes home.  That's a theme that can be, and was, dropped.

 

I would argue much the same for the Wheel of Time.  What stories or themes don't really need to be told or explored?  What stories must be told, and what themes must be included, and what stories are mere elaborations, codas or provide additional emphasis to those themes and stories.  Those things can be cut.

[Elder_Haman]

14 hours ago, Thrasymachus said:

 

I would argue much the same for the Wheel of Time.  What stories or themes don't really need to be told or explored?  What stories must be told, and what themes must be included, and what stories are mere elaborations, codas or provide additional emphasis to those themes and stories.  Those things can be cut.

 

I don't disagree with you. (Well, I disagree with your minimization of the changes Peter Jackson made to the LotR source material - but I agree that those changes were all for the good.) 

 

Where we seem to differ is whether the changes I've suggested change that which must be preserved.

 

For me, a wholly non-exclusive list that I'm just pulling from the top of my head of what must be kept looks like this:

 

Rand's entire character arc, specifically including his internal struggle with Lews Therin. [In season one, I would sacrifice Ba'alzamon's "DIE WORM" stuff for less overt, but more creepy dreams and make Rand's arc mostly about his fear of channeling/becoming a channeler]

 

All of the cultures and factions. No getting rid of the Seanchan or the Sea Folk. It must be faithful to the history of the Aiel and the Seanchan and deal seriously with the upheaval in those cultures. 

 

The Shadow. The Dark One and his minions should be terrifying and menacing, not softened for the sake of "realism". The Foresaken, on the other hand, should feel human (with all of the accompanying pettiness, backstabbing, etc) and be fully fleshed out characters. I don't think all of their plotting needs to stay in. In fact, I would be okay with getting rid of or combining a few of them. But some of the plotting and competing for Nae'blis ought to remain.

 

Certain plot points are obviously necessary: Shadar Logoth, Falme, Callandor and the Stone, the Finn, Rhuidean, Dumai's Wells, the Cleansing, the Last Battle.

 

As for the other main characters, I think all of their arcs can be fiddled with a little bit. For example: losing the Berelain/Faile love triangle; losing (or significantly revising) the Mat/Tylin relationship; softening Nynaeve; giving Egwene a bit more agency; etc. But all of the major plot elements should remain unchanged.

 

So Perrin still saves the Two Rivers, handles Masema, etc.

Nynaeve still heals Logain, takes on Moghedien, does the cleansing.

Egwene still becomes Amyrlin and unites the tower.

Mat still takes on the gholam and the Finn. You get the idea.

 

I'm happy to get as specific as you want. But there's just so much material, that coming up with an exhaustive list is rough. The only thing that I'm dead set on right now is the idea that season one should be basically book one.

[Thrasymachus]

I'm willing to wait and see what Rafe does with it.  As a very avid fan of the books, and acknowledging that I have no experience either creating stories or adapting them, I don't think I would have a very good perspective on what themes or stories should be kept, which could or should be dropped, or how events should be reordered, mashed up, or changed.  For one thing, I would have thought that Mat and Rand's flight down the Caemlyn Road could be cut, or greatly elided.  Yet we have announced casting for the Grinwells, which suggests it may not be.  Unless they're trying to hamfistedly ape Jordan's favorite pastime of teasing his readers with mysterious or deceptive, yet technically true answers to fan questions by hyping up what will amount to very bit parts.

 

Mostly, I'm just curious to see what will happen, and very wary of fan-casting and fan-plotting, as it sets up hopes and expectations that will almost certainly be dashed by reality.  The only theme that I'm sure will be retained is Destiny vs Free-will, and that only because Rafe has said so.  I'm ready for significant changes, and my only hope is that what results is good.  

 

I'm also not afraid of the more uncomfortable aspects of the series.  I could see them getting milage out of making Tylin's rape of Mat even worse, to play up the gender-reversed power structure of the world.  I hope they don't soften Nynaeve, or remove Egwene's blind ambition and chameleon-like lack of a moral center, being able to seamlessly adopt the mores of whichever group she's around and has given her allegiance to.  I don't need to like the characters as people, but I do need to respect the characters as who they are.  Make Nynaeve less of a shrill hypocrite with deep, unacknowledged self-doubt who nevertheless manages to do some of the most badass things in the story, and you no longer have Nynaeve.  Make Egwene less nakedly ambitious and driven, kinder to her friends and possessing a more vulnerable naivete, that would make her more likeable, would make her not Egwene.  

 

I also thing the fandom is getting ahead of itself.  We have no real reason to believe, yet, that the series will go beyond two seasons.  And if it does manage it, how many more seasons we'll get.  Right now, I'm pretty deeply skeptical there will be enough to be able to tell the whole story, even with lots and lots getting cut out.

[mistborn82]

Regarding the Grinwells, you do needs parts of the Caemlyn road and that specific interlude shows that they really are all inept with girls and shows off gleeman skills. Who knows, they might be in slightly different roles and you have to show Rand getting closer to conscously channeling.

The love/hate way Egwene was written works in the books but Egwene being quite as perfect onscreen. Maybe Egwene will still be written as a sort of antagonist but she needs a few more challenges and her capture and torture at the hands of the Seanchan and what it does to her needs to be explored. It never is in the books just like the Tylin situation although that's slightly different and may be dropped because that world doesn't have the concepts necessary to explore how wrong it is. Also, you have Nyneave and Elayne laughing at him, which won't go over well with audience and as this isn't GOT, might be better to drop it.

[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, Thrasymachus said:

For one thing, I would have thought that Mat and Rand's flight down the Caemlyn Road could be cut, or greatly elided.  Yet we have announced casting for the Grinwells, which suggests it may not be. 

I've always thought the opposite. The reason I'm so adamant about keeping season 1 to book 1 is that I believe that approach is best designed to give us a great show.

Spending an episode or two with Mat and Rand on the Camelyn Road, Perrin and Egwene with the tinkers and the Whitecloaks, and with Nynaeve stuck with Moiraine gives viewers time with the characters before the power creep begins. Without that time to understand who the characters are at the beginning of the story, it makes it hard to care about where they end up.

 

1 hour ago, Thrasymachus said:

Make Nynaeve less of a shrill hypocrite with deep, unacknowledged self-doubt who nevertheless manages to do some of the most badass things in the story, and you no longer have Nynaeve.  Make Egwene less nakedly ambitious and driven, kinder to her friends and possessing a more vulnerable naivete, that would make her more likeable, would make her not Egwene.  

 

I don't think you have to take away Nynaeve's self-doubt or hypocrisy or even her temper to make her a little less shrill and annoying. You don't have to take away Egwene's ambition or calculated personality either. (My big nitpick with Egwene isn't her character arc, her personality, or her power. It's that she's so damn passive.)

 

 

1 hour ago, Thrasymachus said:

I'm also not afraid of the more uncomfortable aspects of the series.  I could see them getting milage out of making Tylin's rape of Mat even worse, to play up the gender-reversed power structure of the world. 

 

I'm not necessarily afraid of those aspects either. By including them, though, it is committing to a "mature" rating. Is that what you're hoping for? I was personally hoping for something a little more family friendly - appropriate for my two young teenagers.

 

1 hour ago, Thrasymachus said:

I also thing the fandom is getting ahead of itself.  We have no real reason to believe, yet, that the series will go beyond two seasons.  And if it does manage it, how many more seasons we'll get.  Right now, I'm pretty deeply skeptical there will be enough to be able to tell the whole story, even with lots and lots getting cut out.

 

I get that. But I am excited about the prospect of getting the whole story. Gotta express that enthusiasm!

 

1 hour ago, Thrasymachus said:

I'm ready for significant changes, and my only hope is that what results is good.  

 

Me too! And the choices they've made so far give me plenty of reasons for optimism. But then again, I was super excited for the Shannara series. That lasted all of about 10 minutes.