How did Moiraine know Samael

[agreddon]

Okay, so in Illian Moiraine says that Sammael is a lord and is hunting them.  Exactly how does she know that he is Sammael?  Or that Bel'al is Bel'al?

[Stevros]

There's a few reasons I think dhe csn do this.

 

1. Moiraine is one of the few people in the world who knows the Forsaken are free, so one of tge few people who would even consider them in the whole who's this Lord Brend chap.

 

2. She also knows it's not Ishamael, Aginor or Balthamel after confronting two at the Eye of the World and the fight at Falme so knows it could only be Rahvin, Demandred, Asmodean, Be'lal or Sammael if it is a Forsaken.

 

3. Most of all I think given she knew the Dragon had been Reborn nearly 20 years ago and the plan was for her and Siuan to track him down and guide him. I think it is reasonable to think that she would have researched what she can about the Forsaken so she can prepare him once he is found. Sammael is very distinctive in looks. Sammael wouldn't have disguised himself as he wouldn't expect to be recognised. 

 

So with the fact a mysterious Lord Brend who fits Sammael's general description came out of nowhere to rule to someone who is actually looking out for the Forsaken is likely to be quite easy to discern. The fact there was a warded darkhound was probably just the cherry on top of the confirmation.

 

In all honesty I think Moiraine probably suspected before going there (likely what she went out to confirm) but probably was surprised by him setting Darkhounds on them so quickly.

 

I've not gone into Be'lal's identification but it's probably along similar lines.

[TheSociopath]

First, at that point in time, nobody really knew who it was who Rand was fighting. Rand thought it was the DO, and most people still seemed to think that to some extent.

 

Second, look at what they knew about Lanfear: liked Lews, choose her own name, was powerful. No descriptions.

Bel'lal: netweaver, blademaster. beat Lews at stones, once. No descriptions. 

 

Those are the only two that I can remember the books giving us a full-blown description of everything that the light knew about them pre-rand.

[Stevros]

1 hour ago, TheSociopath said:

First, at that point in time, nobody really knew who it was who Rand was fighting. Rand thought it was the DO, and most people still seemed to think that to some extent.

 

Second, look at what they knew about Lanfear: liked Lews, choose her own name, was powerful. No descriptions.

Bel'lal: netweaver, blademaster. beat Lews at stones, once. No descriptions. 

 

Those are the only two that I can remember the books giving us a full-blown description of everything that the light knew about them pre-rand.

 

Firstly I don't think Moiraine ever thought it was the DO. After the events of tEotW she goes to Adeleas and Vandene's retreat to do additional research. She doesn't divulge much to Rand at this stage but she's pretty confident it's Ishy at the end of tDR despite not studying any more.

 

2. Sammael though especially was known for the scar and his stature. So I would be surprised if that didn't survive through to the current time.

 

3. Moiraine has spent 20 years prepping for it I would suspect she knows more than basics if not much more she and Siuan had Tar Valon's libraries at their disposal. It would not take much additional information to general knowledge of the time to identify some of the Forsaken if you are actively looking for them.

 

4. Just because our main POV characters don't know much at this stage we haven't seen that many Moiraine POV's at this time to know what she knows about. What we do know is she had spent 20 years trusting just Lan and Siuan knowing what is coming and therefore does keep what she knows and plans to herself.

[Sabio]

I would say in Tear when a human body was left behind, she was sure it wasn't the DO.  She was rather worried after Falme and not entirely sure.

 

Some of it might of come from one of the forsaken wasn't shielding their dreams or something like that.  That might of given Moiraine some information.  In Illian she went off on her own, so we aren't sure what bits of information she picked up.

Edited April 19, 2018 by Sabio

[TheSociopath]

 

15 hours ago, Stevros said:

Firstly I don't think Moiraine ever thought it was the DO. After the events of tEotW she goes to Adeleas and Vandene's retreat to do additional research. She doesn't divulge much to Rand at this stage but she's pretty confident it's Ishy at the end of tDR despite not studying any more.

Yeah, but after Tear, it was fairly obvious that it was not the DO, but she went into Illian before then, and even if she didn't think it was the DO, she still didn't know it was Ishamael. 

Even with that one scrap of paper talking about Ishamael being Balzamon, and the name behind the name, I think I remember them piecing it together during tSR.

15 hours ago, Stevros said:

2. Sammael though especially was known for the scar and his stature. So I would be surprised if that didn't survive through to the current time.

To people who lived back then, sure, but we don't see any particular evidence that either was known in the third age. Even if the scar was remembered, I doubt his stature was.

15 hours ago, Stevros said:

3. Moiraine has spent 20 years prepping for it I would suspect she knows more than basics if not much more she and Siuan had Tar Valon's libraries at their disposal. It would not take much additional information to general knowledge of the time to identify some of the Forsaken if you are actively looking for them.

I disagree with this statement. First, alot of those 20 years were spent looking for Rand. 

Second, look at what they knew of Bel'al and Lanfear. In fact, even later on, in ToM, When Egwene has Mesaana described to her, we get the following: 

         "You likely know the most famous stories regarding Mesaana-how she ran the schools in lands conquered by the shadow during the War of Power. So far as I can tell, those legends are quite true. Marsom of Manetheren speaks of that in detail in her Annals of the Final Nights, and she's often a reliable source. Alrom gathered quite a full report of living through one  of those schools, and fragments of it have survived.

      "Mesaana wished to be a researcher, but was rejected. The details are not clear. She also governed the Aes Sedai who went to the Shadow, leading them in battle at times, if Alrom's report is to be believed. I'm not convinced it is; I think it likely Mesaana's leadership was more figurative."

         "The Forsaken are more monsters in the night than real 'personalities' to most, Mother, and much has been lost or misquoted. From what I can tell, among the Forsaken you could call her the realist-the one who, rather than sitting high on a throne, steps in and gets her hands dirty. Elandria Borndat's Seeing Through the Breaking insists that, unlike Moghedien and Graendal, Mesaana was willing to take the reins directly.

           "She was never known as the most skilled or powerful of the Forsaken, but she was extremely capable. Elandria explains that she did what needed to be done. When others would be scheming, she would be carefully building up defenses and training new recruits. She ... well, she sounds much like an Amyrlin, Mother. The Shadow's Amyrlin."

           "The only other thing I could find of relevance, Mother, was a curious reference from the Blue scholar Lannis, who indicated that Mesaana was second only to Demandred in sheer anger."

           "Not hate, Anger. Lannis thought Mesaana was angry-at herself, at the world, at the other Forsaken-because she wasn't one of those at the forefront. That could make her very dangerous."

 

This is everything that Saerin, a brown, was able to find in the WT libraries concerning Mesaana over the course of a month or so. Considerably less than 20 years, but it would take a whole lot more to be able to guess who the Forsaken was posing as. 

15 hours ago, Stevros said:

4. Just because our main POV characters don't know much at this stage we haven't seen that many Moiraine POV's at this time to know what she knows about. What we do know is she had spent 20 years trusting just Lan and Siuan knowing what is coming and therefore does keep what she knows and plans to herself.

 

This actually serves my point. Even if she did have 140 times as much time to research, she also would have gone to considerably greater lengths to conceal what she was doing. 

 

2 hours ago, Sabio said:

Some of it might of come from one of the forsaken wasn't shielding their dreams or something like that.  That might of given Moiraine some information.  In Illian she went off on her own, so we aren't sure what bits of information she picked up.

Moirane would have had no way to peek in at a Forsaken dreams, and if they were pushing their dreams onto others, she wards her own.

And thats true, she did go off on her own, but I don't see a way that she could know it was Sammael, and not one of the others that reined in Illian.

[Sabio]

It was about everyone having dreams of swords in the stone, and if I remember right of a man.   There was mention about one of the forsaken not shielding his dreams very well, I think it was in Illian when everyone in the city seemed depressed,  She did ask the Shinerans etc about their dreams, so seems likely she would be asking about dreams to her contacts etc along the way.  Information about bad dreams was probably openly being discussed by common people in Illian.  So it wasn't Moiraine peeking in dreams but for whatever reason someone's dreams were being projected.  Again this is if I am remembering things right.  So she should at least known only a Forsaken would be powerful enough to do that.

Edited April 20, 2018 by Sabio