Rand's Death... [living through dying]

[Two_Face31]

This is my first port ever so if I am posting something that has already been discounted, please disregard. So here is my theory about Rand’s Death. So we all know that in order for Rand to live, he must die but they never specified which age he would live in. Since we know that if the DO wins the last battle, the pattern gets torn apart and everything ceases to exist ever again, but if the forces of good win, then there is a new age and the wheel continues to turns. So my theory is that Rand will win but won’t live again until the Pattern needs the Dragon again, just like LT lives again in Rand. That’s why you have the viewing of three women standing over Rand’s body. Remember, Rand says in TOM, “Min, he was always me, but I was always him as well. The only difference is that I was raised better.” I hope this is not the case but I have always found that the simplest answer is normally the right one.

[yoniy0]

Yes, I thought so too when I first read that. It was the foreshadowing of Nynaeve's Healing death that set me to thinking differently.

 

BTW it's not a good idea to have two topics with the same title on the board at the same time

[Two_Face31]

I was under the impression that Death couldn’t be healed with the exception of either the Creator or DO. Rand tried but was only able to move a lifeless body around. I don’t think she can heal death because I imagine that their souls move on much like what many religions believe today. She would have to be able to bring the soul back from wherever souls go there and the only person or essence I have read that could do that was the Lord of the Grave.

[yoniy0]

Only we know exactly where Rand's soul would go - TAR. She knows that as well, and she has some experience with bringing dead Heroes back.

[FarShainMael]

I rather think that if Nyn grabs anyone out of T'A'R, it'll be her husband......

[Edynol]

I always liked the idea of Nynaeve discovering how to heal death, but in doing completely loses her ability to channel. Not talking about just being severed, I mean totally losing her connection to the source, to where she can't even feel it anymore, like she was never able to channel. So that way there wouldn't be anything there to heal and she couldn't show anyone else how to do it and also grow old with Lan. I think being with Lan and having children and all would be more than enough to overcome any thoughts of dying she might have afterwords, if she even has any to begin with.

[mlva103]

My theory is that rand will die but since he is a hero of the horn he will go to the world of dreams. He will get out the same way Birgitte did. If pre-planed he could have someone waiting to bond him. Then you would have a dragon running around that the shadow thinks is dead...

[TankSpill]

Someone over at Theoryland actually wrote a fan-fic like that a long time ago, I thought it was actually pretty neat, because it means that she wouldn't be able to just rez anyone. On the other hand, the theory I tend to like the most nowadays (about her "rezzing" Rand by ripping him from Dreamland), means it would only work on Heroes anyway, so it's not like she could just do it to anyone that she missed (ie, Lan)

 

I always liked the idea of Nynaeve discovering how to heal death, but in doing completely loses her ability to channel. Not talking about just being severed, I mean totally losing her connection to the source, to where she can't even feel it anymore, like she was never able to channel. So that way there wouldn't be anything there to heal and she couldn't show anyone else how to do it and also grow old with Lan. I think being with Lan and having children and all would be more than enough to overcome any thoughts of dying she might have afterwords, if she even has any to begin with.

[FarShainMael]

Certainly it would only work for Heroes otHorn.. but there's a distinct possibility that the Uncrowned King of Malkier is one of their number.

[TankSpill]

There's certainly the possibility, and maybe even a bit of a probability, but I don't there's any actual evidence of any sort that it will happen - we really don't know much about how, when, & why it happens, so it may (unfortunately?) take more than being an extremely honorable and awesome bad-ass.

 

Certainly it would only work for Heroes otHorn.. but there's a distinct possibility that the Uncrowned King of Malkier is one of their number.

[FarShainMael]

True enough - but then, we don't have any actual evidence of Rand being a Hero (Hawkwing's convo with him in TGH notwithstanding).

[Two_Face31]

I find it hard to believe that Rand will die and go to TAR. I don’t think he will ever be a Hero of the Horn because the whole purpose of the Horn is to be blown for the LB. Plus when they are called, LTT doesn’t show up or any of the other Dragons thru time. So why would Rand be different? Plus that would bring in to discussion whether or not Bridgette is still linked to the Horn. When the Call is sounded, will she come face to face with herself?

[FarShainMael]

If Birgitte is still 'alive' then no, she won't meet herself. (I put 'alive' in quotes because I don't think she's truly alive; I think she's in some kind of symbiosis with Elayne.) If Birgitte dies before the LB, or at least before Mat blows the Horn (which I rather thhink will happen), then she'll be back on her horse, silver bow in hand.

 

You make a good point about Rand not being a Hero. A very good point. However, elsewhere I've speculated that Rand may have a very special relationship with T'A'R (see my thread on The Creator, the DO, and Rand for my wafflings on the subject.

[yoniy0]

Come on. There actually is the little matter of his conversation with Hawkwing.

[FarShainMael]

Come on. There actually is the little matter of his conversation with Hawkwing.

All that tells us is that Hawkwing recognises Rand as LTT - but that isn't enough to make Rand a HotH, because HW also recognises and names Hurin, who isn't a HotH (yet).

 

ETA: Then there's also the Dragon Banner:

"You are here. The banner is here. The weave of this moment is set. We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon."

So the Horn calls them out of T'A'R; but they must follow the Dragon and his banner. Can they be said to 'follow' the Dragon if he's in T'A'R with them when the Horn calls? This suggests very strongly to me that the Dragon is not a HotH. However, that doesn't mean his soul will not go to T'A'R; his soul is unique, so this could happen.

[GB]

what if rand lives in TaR and not in the real world? the girls can still come to see him in tar, and even min can use the ter'angreal that enables non channelers to enter TaR, he dies in the real world and only egwene, avi, min, elayne, perrin would know he "lives" somehow in TaR until his soul is spun out again.

[FarShainMael]

He who is dead yet lives...

[yoniy0]

FSM, in that particular moment they had to follow the Banner, not every time they are called. I think RJ said that much. Regardless, Hawkwing talked of Rand's being able to educate his friends "could you but remember when you wore flesh". So, he knows Rand as LTT (we know that the Heroes take the form of their most recent life in TAR) in a place where he doesn't wear flesh. Suggestive, to say the least.

 

EDIT: So apparently RJ said nothing of the kind, he just gave contradictory answers that made me interpret reality in that way. Let's just agree that we don't really know the nature of the connection between the Horn and the Banner.

TPOD Signing Report - Pam Basham (Paraphrased) (Oct 22nd, 1998)

Pam Basham: Hawkwing says they follow the banner and the Dragon. Moiraine says the Heroes will follow whoever winds the Horn. Was Moiraine wrong?

RJ: *Arch look* Moiraine doesn't know everything. She was speaking the truth as she knows it.

Pam Basham: (I took this to imply that Moiraine was misinformed, and the conflict resolved, until he continued.)

RJ: However, she is correct in that whoever sounds the Horn "controls the Heroes." [exact quote]

Pam Basham: (I started to get confused at this point. Is Moiraine right or is she wrong? What's he trying to tell me?) Then what happens if the Dragon and the banner are on opposite sides of the conflict from whoever sounds the Horn?

RJ: "Then we get a [rift] in the Pattern." (I'm not certain if this is the exact word he used. It may have been "schism" or "breach," but it was definitely a word expressing the concept of a forced opening/rupture. Sorry. It was lost in the momentary brain freeze.)

Pam Basham:

(This elicited a pronounced Startled Moment from Harriet, which I took at the time to express the same reaction as me—"A WHAT?!?"—but which Kevin told me later he interpreted to be more along the lines of "I can't believe you're telling them that!" It could, of course, mean something entirely different.)

At this point, part of my mind was running wild down paths about the Dark One and potential entrances into the Pattern, while the rest of it remained stunned, frozen, in absolute denial: "A WHAT?!?"I remain steadfastly in denial about this one. Oh, sure. He did say it, and if it becomes relevant, he'll work it in, no doubt. But I firmly believe he Made This Up. If the Dark One was aware of this, it seems to me that he'd be working a lot harder on making this happen, since it would seem to represent the equivalent of a serious "crack in the door to the Pattern." It's so much less work than using up all your main players (Chosen) in inefficient, conflicting plots and setting up Rand for "easily escapable situations involving an overly elaborate and exotic Death." (Moridin, of course. He's overly elaborate and exotic even before he puts on his silk coats.)

 

Brisbane Signing Report - Joel Gilmore (Paraphrased) (Sep 20th, 1999)

I re-asked the question about the shadow controlling one of the Horn or the banner, and he said that the Heroes would have to follow the Horn (I think. I don't have this on tape, so...But he didn't say anything about a rift, which was what I'd heard someone say he said before?)

 

Plot Related Q&A With Maria Simons + New MAFO by Luckers (Verbatim) (Jun 10th, 2010)

Luckers: At the end of The Great Hunt after the Horn is sounded, Hawkwing goes to ride off, then states that 'something is wrong' and that 'something' holds him, and says to Rand 'you are here, have you the banner?' This has led to the perception that the Horn requires the Dragon or the Dragon banner to work. Is this perception correct, or is this a result of the Weave of the Moment, or just plain Hawkwing's sense of romanticism?

Maria Simons: I would think, given that the banner was hidden with the Horn of Valere, that it might indeed be very necessary for it. I have no idea why, though, or how.

[FarShainMael]

Thanks for that, yoniy0. So it's still wide open about Rand being HotH.

[thesheepnoob66]

I had always thought that maybe some time in the last battle both Perrin and Rand wold die then Mat seeing the forces of the worlds morale drop he would blow the horn bringing back Rand perrin and the other heroes.

 

Just my opinon though.

 

Sheep

[Terez]

Thanks for that, yoniy0. So it's still wide open about Rand being HotH.

Only if you need proof for the obvious.

[Suttree]

So it's still wide open about Rand being HotH.

 

How would Hawkwing recognize him if he isn't?

[FarShainMael]

So it's still wide open about Rand being HotH.

How would Hawkwing recognize him if he isn't?

As I said before, he recognised Hurin, who isn't a HotH.(see http://www.dragonmou...n/#entry2253814  )

[yoniy0]

Perhaps it's partially my fault for not asking before, but why do you think that? This is all the interaction they get:

Hurin drew his short sword, holding it as if it might actually be of some use from horseback. "Begging your pardon, Lord Rand, but I think not. I don't understand the tenth part of what I've heard... or what I'm seeing" - his voice dropped to a mutter before picking up again - "but I've come this far, and I think I'll go the rest of the way." Artur Hawkwing clapped the sniffer on the shoulder. "Sometimes the Wheel adds to our number, friend. Perhaps you will find yourself among us, one day." Hurin sat up as if he had been offered a crown. Hawkwing bowed formally from his saddle to Rand. "With your permission . . . Lord Rand. Trumpeter, will you give us music on the Horn? Fitting that the Horn of Valere should sing us into battle. Bannerman, will you advance?"

It doesn't seem to suggest familiarity, to me. Quite the opposite. Especially when compared to Hawkwing's familiarity with Rand:

"I have fought by your side times beyond number, Lews Therin, and faced you as many more. The Wheel spins us out for its purposes, not ours, to serve the Pattern. I know you, if you do not know yourself. We will drive these invaders out for you."

[FarShainMael]

Of course HW is familiar with Rand/LTT, because he has fought beside him and against him 'times beyond number'. But no Age is identical to another. Hurin is new to HW, since he talks about the Wheel adding to the number of Heroes. All Hurin says is that he'll go the rest of the way with Rand. I'm not sure if this indicates enough Hero potential for HW to talk about him joining them some day; it takes a lot for that, since there's only about a hundred of them. And he doesn't say that to Mat and Perrin, who also accompany Rand. I'm sure HW must know a lot more about Hurin than he mentions.