The Davram Bashere darkfriend theory

[Louise]

Lied to, or misjudged, how Tenobia would react? There's a difference and neither a lie nor misjudgement would necessarily make him a DF. Given the first meeting between Rad and Bashere in TFoH, it is a ta'veren effect that Bashere joins Rand. He's been waiting around Caemlyn, trying to gain audience with Rahvin/ Morgause and Rand happens along. None of the DB=DF theories, plausible as they were, can survive unless they can reasonably explain how/ why Bashere is unaffected by Rand's close proximity in ToM when other DFs go mad/ are unable to meet Rand's eyes.

 

I'd like to go with lied to. Though as I said, I do agree that the evidence is far from concrete but hey... I just LOVE the idea. (There's enough slight hints in there for me.)

 

With Tenobia being both his Queen and his niece I would think that he should know her quite well. WE know her well enough to know that she has quite the temper. I just can't see her being willing (or rational enough in her anger,) to throw her support to Rand so soon after Bashere disobeyed her. Clearly she'd rather 'have hs head for treason' than rush to throw her lot in with Rand.

 

And for your second point: See FarShainMael's post... it sums it up quite well.

 

Luckers, but death would be such a disappointment! There is a chance for some serious bad guy stuff here!

[Sharaman]

Bashere is a great captain - in military terms, he finds Rand's decision at Maradon irrational, being unaware that Rand has the power to do what he did.

He was understandably shocked when he realised that rand was going to do it in the same way that Egwene was shocked when she learnt Rand was intending to break the Seals. It's got nothing to do with being a DF.

There's zero evidence anywhere in the text that Bashere has any sort of mystic protection from the GLoD.

He's spent lots of time in Rand's company - not flinched while directly interacting with Rand in close contact, or while directly watching Rand do something that blew the minds of two DFs who didn't even see it.

[FarShainMael]

Bashere is a great captain - in military terms, he finds Rand's decision at Maradon irrational, being unaware that Rand has the power to do what he did.

 

He was understandably shocked when he realised that rand was going to do it in the same way that Egwene was shocked when she learnt Rand was intending to break the Seals. It's got nothing to do with being a DF.

 

He'd be angry rather than shocked. A Great Captain isn't often stunned into open-mouthed silence.

 

There's zero evidence anywhere in the text that Bashere has any sort of mystic protection from the GLoD.

 

True enough.. but then, there was zero evidence anywhere in the text that Graendal had the DO's permission to channel the TP, either.

 

He's spent lots of time in Rand's company - not flinched while directly interacting with Rand in close contact, or while directly watching Rand do something that blew the minds of two DFs who didn't even see it.

 

This is the first time we've seen Bashere and Rand together since VoG. It's also the first time we've seen two DFs getting their minds blown. Too many rabbits out of too many hats.

[Sharaman]

The rabbits out of hats are very deliberate, I think.

Rand's unmasking of Weiramon and herself in Tear occurred just before he asked for Bashere and his forces to be summoned.

Then he, Bashere and the Dragonmsworn went off somewhere unknown for 20-odd days where they were "delayed" before they landed up in Maradon.

Just to emphasise that Rand has this power to drive DFs bats, we see two more DFs go nuts in Maradon.

 

We know that Rand's spent lots of time offscreen with Bashere and we have a scene right there, and then another one right after, in Tear with Bashere in close conference with him.

It's like the hints RJ dropped earlier in the series with ref to Danelle and the Asmo killing- Brandon is telling us that Bashere is not a DF.

 

As to being stunned, DB doesn't believe Rand would take on 1/2 million or so Shadowspawn on his own - that doesn't happen often either.

 

There were textual hints in the Graendal's castle being balefired scene that made it very likely something strange had happened and she hadn't died.

We knew she had used Compulsion on Ramshalan and therefore, discovered that Rand was waiting with an open Gate.

Yet, Ramshalam was allowed to come back and he wasn't (apparently) followed.

And, there were no signs that the castle had gone on high alert despite her knowledge that DR was within shouting distance.

All very odd and enough for several people on this forum to guess correctly that G had somehow scarpered.

Especially since we had an earlier G PoV to the effect that she would run for it, if LTT came calling.

Brandon could have written the escape scene in another way without the TP if he cared to. Just for example, she could have used saidar to set up an inverted listening weave (something we know is possible from Moiraine and others). The TP wasn't important in that sense.

 

In this instance, you'd either need to find a loophole in Rand's new ability or a hint that bashere is somehow immune. Neither is available.

 

 

There are no such hints in Db's behaviour in TGS/ ToM so I'd guess Brandon was trying at some level of debunk the DB=DF theory.

[FarShainMael]

The rabbits out of hats are very deliberate, I think.

Rand's unmasking of Weiramon and herself in Tear occurred just before he asked for Bashere and his forces to be summoned.

Then he, Bashere and the Dragonmsworn went off somewhere unknown for 20-odd days where they were "delayed" before they landed up in Maradon.

Just to emphasise that Rand has this power to drive DFs bats, we see two more DFs go nuts in Maradon.

 

But not straight away when Rand turns up, so it's not simply his presence that does this. It may be a conscious effort on his part.

 

We know that Rand's spent lots of time offscreen with Bashere and we have a scene right there, and then another one right after, in Tear with Bashere in close conference with him.

It's like the hints RJ dropped earlier in the series with ref to Danelle and the Asmo killing- Brandon is telling us that Bashere is not a DF.

 

As to being stunned, DB doesn't believe Rand would take on 1/2 million or so Shadowspawn on his own - that doesn't happen often either.

 

Not believing it, I would accept. Being stunned into speechlessness - a state which in warfare would leave him wide open to attack - I wouldn't. He's a Great Captain FHS!

 

There were textual hints in the Graendal's castle being balefired scene that made it very likely something strange had happened and she hadn't died.

We knew she had used Compulsion on Ramshalan and therefore, discovered that Rand was waiting with an open Gate.

Yet, Ramshalam was allowed to come back and he wasn't (apparently) followed.

And, there were no signs that the castle had gone on high alert despite her knowledge that DR was within shouting distance.

All very odd and enough for several people on this forum to guess correctly that G had somehow scarpered.

 

Very true. It's the manner of her scarpering that bothered me.

 

Especially since we had an earlier G PoV to the effect that she would run for it, if LTT came calling.

Brandon could have written the escape scene in another way without the TP if he cared to. Just for example, she could have used saidar to set up an inverted listening weave (something we know is possible from Moiraine and others). The TP wasn't important in that sense.

 

It's important because if we'd known she could do it, then we'd have had some hope of making correct guesses.. but I suppose it's an author's privilege to make us squirm

 

In this instance, you'd either need to find a loophole in Rand's new ability or a hint that bashere is somehow immune. Neither is available.

 

 

There are no such hints in Db's behaviour in TGS/ ToM so I'd guess Brandon was trying at some level of debunk the DB=DF theory.

 

See above.

[Hybrid]

We know that Rand's spent lots of time offscreen with Bashere and we have a scene right there, and then another one right after, in Tear with Bashere in close conference with him.

It's like the hints RJ dropped earlier in the series with ref to Danelle and the Asmo killing- Brandon is telling us that Bashere is not a DF.

 

As to being stunned, DB doesn't believe Rand would take on 1/2 million or so Shadowspawn on his own - that doesn't happen often either.

 

Not believing it, I would accept. Being stunned into speechlessness - a state which in warfare would leave him wide open to attack - I wouldn't. He's a Great Captain FHS!

 

[Never]

 

1) Firstly, there's Min's Viewing of DB:

 

"And there's something...dark...in the images I saw around Lord Davram." CoT Ch24.

 

 

Sorry dude, but that doesn't do it for me. Min and Bashere had met prior to this Chapter, so why would she get a new viewing of him as a DF now? Seems unlikely imo except if Bashere has at this point suddenly become a Darkfriend, or if he's newly under Compulsion (Graendal, Moridin or Taim being the most likely if so, imo. Perhaps Demandred, that these are the armies he has control over).

 

Then again, if you show me some solid evidence of Min's viewing being "delayed" in a similar manner, I might be more inclined to believe you. Min meets Bashere in LoC though, iirc, and it seems weird that it would go four books before a viewing would manifest itself. The way I understand it, once "thing X" happens, it makes "event Y" inevitable and at this point Min might or might not be able to perceive a new viewing.

[Sharaman]

 

1) Firstly, there's Min's Viewing of DB:

 

"And there's something...dark...in the images I saw around Lord Davram." CoT Ch24.

 

 

Sorry dude, but that doesn't do it for me. Min and Bashere had met prior to this Chapter, so why would she get a new viewing of him as a DF now? Seems unlikely imo except if Bashere has at this point suddenly become a Darkfriend, or if he's newly under Compulsion (Graendal, Moridin or Taim being the most likely if so, imo. Perhaps Demandred, that these are the armies he has control over).

 

Then again, if you show me some solid evidence of Min's viewing being "delayed" in a similar manner, I might be more inclined to believe you. Min meets Bashere in LoC though, iirc, and it seems weird that it would go four books before a viewing would manifest itself. The way I understand it, once "thing X" happens, it makes "event Y" inevitable and at this point Min might or might not be able to perceive a new viewing.

Min frequently gets new viewings about people she's met before. Carlinya, Perrin, Rand, ...

[Never]

 

Min frequently gets new viewings about people she's met before. Carlinya, Perrin, Rand, ...

 

 

Yes, but after major events that alter what is after that point inevitable.

[Louise]

We know that Rand's spent lots of time offscreen with Bashere and we have a scene right there, and then another one right after, in Tear with Bashere in close conference with him. It's like the hints RJ dropped earlier in the series with ref to Danelle and the Asmo killing- Brandon is telling us that Bashere is not a DF. As to being stunned, DB doesn't believe Rand would take on 1/2 million or so Shadowspawn on his own - that doesn't happen often either.

 

Not believing it, I would accept. Being stunned into speechlessness - a state which in warfare would leave him wide open to attack - I wouldn't. He's a Great Captain FHS

 

Exactly it is NOT a thing that happens to a Great Captain, couldn't have said it better myself.

 

Also, we have plenty of evidence of how unflappable Bashere is. Rand does weird, odd, crazy, reckless things and Bashere takes it all in stride.

 

NOTHING fazes the man!

 

Channeling, madness, Semhirage's revelation that Rand hears LTT's voice... he didn't bat an eyelid at ANY of that, yet after all this time with Rand and after everything else he has seen Rand do, NOW we see Bashere standing stunned with his mouth open?

 

We have never seen a reaction like that from him before.

[FarShainMael]

 

1) Firstly, there's Min's Viewing of DB:

 

"And there's something...dark...in the images I saw around Lord Davram." CoT Ch24.

 

 

Sorry dude, but that doesn't do it for me. Min and Bashere had met prior to this Chapter, so why would she get a new viewing of him as a DF now? Seems unlikely imo except if Bashere has at this point suddenly become a Darkfriend, or if he's newly under Compulsion (Graendal, Moridin or Taim being the most likely if so, imo. Perhaps Demandred, that these are the armies he has control over).

 

Then again, if you show me some solid evidence of Min's viewing being "delayed" in a similar manner, I might be more inclined to believe you. Min meets Bashere in LoC though, iirc, and it seems weird that it would go four books before a viewing would manifest itself. The way I understand it, once "thing X" happens, it makes "event Y" inevitable and at this point Min might or might not be able to perceive a new viewing.

 

Very interesting points. Of course, Min's Viewings are 'readings' of the Pattern, and the Pattern is shaped in its fine detail by people - most especially ta'veren. I recall one in particular, on Rand:

 

"Dragonmount cloaked in dark shadows, as if shaded by clouds high above, with a tiny prick of light shining from the heavens down onto the point of the mountain." (TGS37)

 

This, we discover, is a preview of VoG - but it occurs during Rand's preparations for the attack on Natrin's Barrow. It's far from clear how NB could have led to VoG. that chain of events might be said to have started when Cadsuane sent for Tam. I'm not good at timelines..

 

However, about that Bashere Viewing of Min's.. This took place in the manor house; they've just had a visit from large numbers of people, notably Bashere himself and Logain:

 

Bashere and Logain both wanted to talk to him, but not in front of anyone, especially each other it seemed.

 

So there was disagreement between those two; at least partially about the AS and Asha'man also present in that party:

 

..all but one {of the AS} seemed to be with the Asha'man! Not prisoners, and certainly not guards, but Logain had been reluctant to explain with Bashere present, and Bashere reluctant to leave Logain the first chance to talk to Rand alone.

 

It's while Rand is resting with Min afterwards that she talks about 'something dark' about Bashere, and about Logain's aura speaking of glory 'stronger than ever'.

 

So here's her reason for getting that viewing now - a clear disagreement between two of Rand's important allies.

 

It's still ambiguous though - as Min says, he may turn against Rand because of Logain's actions; or Logain may kill him.. or both, if he shows himself as a DF and gets himself killed.

 

A second point: Min's Viewings don't necessarily identify DFs. She saw this around Sheriam:

 

'Rays of silver and blue flashed about her fiery hair, and a soft golden light; Min could not say what it meant.' (TFoH26)

 

Later we discover that this is a preview of Sheriam's execution as a member of the BA!

[Never]

As for the Natrin's Barrow-thing; It could be argued that Tam is not in fact the most important factor in the build-up to VoG. The way I see it, once Rand really decides to Balefire NB, his path down to Ebou Dar becomes inevitable, or if not Ebou Dar then at least the idea that he would have to fight of the Seanchan himself. VoG happens because Rand discovers he's not hard enough to destroy Ebou Dar because of the people's genuine concern. Ebou Dar happens because Rand thinks himself hard enough after Semirhage and NB.

 

 

As for the something dark, maybe Logain put compulsion on Bashere? Or maybe it's something quite else; I just don't see the Shadow's value in having someone like Bashere close to Rand without him causing more mayhem for the Light. For instance, one could argue that under the order of "letting the Lord of Chaos rule", Rand should have been allowed to continue his war on the Seanchan with Callandor. Bashere, if a pawn of the Shadow, has brought more triumph to the Light than to the Shadow. Not that this can't change, I just really get the feeling that Bashere can't be a Darkfriend. Would be a cool plot-twist, though.

 

Personally, and I have no backing for this, I like the idea that Bashere is under compulsion from Logain, on orders from Demandred (or Logian could be Demandred), and these are the armies that Demandred is speaking of.

[Never]

 

 

A second point: Min's Viewings don't necessarily identify DFs. She saw this around Sheriam:

 

'Rays of silver and blue flashed about her fiery hair, and a soft golden light; Min could not say what it meant.' (TFoH26)

 

Later we discover that this is a preview of Sheriam's execution as a member of the BA!

 

 

I understand that this must be about Sheriam's execution as there is no other point it could be in reference to, however I don't really see the connection between blue and silver rays, a soft golden light and a beheading.

[FarShainMael]

 

 

A second point: Min's Viewings don't necessarily identify DFs. She saw this around Sheriam:

 

'Rays of silver and blue flashed about her fiery hair, and a soft golden light; Min could not say what it meant.' (TFoH26)

 

Later we discover that this is a preview of Sheriam's execution as a member of the BA!

 

 

I understand that this must be about Sheriam's execution as there is no other point it could be in reference to, however I don't really see the connection between blue and silver rays, a soft golden light and a beheading.

 

Nor did I until someone pointed out this bit..

 

They'd placed her{Sheriam's} head on the block and taken it off. That scene would always be vivid in Egwene's mind - her former Keeper, lying with her head pressed against the stump, blue dress and fiery red hair suddenly bathed in warm golden light as a thinner section of clouds moved in front of the sun. Then the silvery axe, falling to claim her head'

 

Interesting that the clouds should break partly.. the sort of thing that happens when Rand is around, now.

[Never]

Ah, that's good. No thread left unknitted :)

[Louise]

A second point: Min's Viewings don't necessarily identify DFs.

 

She saw this around Sheriam:'Rays of silver and blue flashed about her fiery hair, and a soft golden light; Min could not say what it meant.' (TFoH26)

 

Later we discover that this is a preview of Sheriam's execution as a member of the BA!

 

Min also viewed:

Elza- Beldeine, Elza, Erian, Nesune, Sarene and Sorilea will serve Rand, each in her fashion. tPoD-pg 611

And Dashiva. (Though admittedly she said Dashiva's auras were 'unreadable.') aCoS-pg 639

 

She didn't see anything around them to indicate DF/Forsaken.

I don't think we can read too much importance into the veiwing being delayed.

 

 

Ah, that's good. No thread left unknitted :)

 

The man was a master!

[balefired-ed2]

I just dont see it being true what with Bashere being able to look at Rand without going mad or at least having to squint.

[Louise]

See FarShainMael's previous quote;

 

Actually, yes he did..

 

"We need to get out of the city," Bashere said, his voice urgent. "I'm sorry, man. Maradon is lost."

 

"No," al'Thor said softly. "The Shadow will not have this city. Not after what these men did to hold it. I will not allow it."

 

"An honourable sentiment," Bashere said, "but we don't.." He trailed off as al'Thor looked at him.

 

Those eyes. So intense. They seemed almost alight. "They will not take this city, Bashere," al'Thor said, an edge of anger entering his quiet voice...

 

...Bashere looked stunned, mouth half-open. "Curse that man!" he finally said.

[FarShainMael]

Thank you Louii!

[Louise]

You're most welcome!!!

 

Loving the fact that I've got a Bashere-is-a-DF comrade!

(We seem to be quite seriously outnumbered!)

[FarShainMael]

I'm certainly looking forward to seeing how it all works out.. possibly in a Logain / Bashere confrontation..

[Louise]

Indeed, the tension and distrust between the two is surely too good of a plot line not to delve further into, I am hoping it comes to a big, explosive conclusion.

DF-Bashere dies, Logain has his glory (or at least part of it,)

 

...and Louise is very, very satisfied!

[cancan4ever]

i read this entire thread a few days ago and dont recall everything so forgive me if im stating a mute point. my friend referred me to 2 scenes. storm of light and when rand goes to tear. darkfriends cannot stand the sight of him and or he can now see darkfriends. and since bashere was present in the storm of light chapter we would know for sure......

[Suttree]

i read this entire thread a few days ago and dont recall everything so forgive me if im stating a mute point. my friend referred me to 2 scenes. storm of light and when rand goes to tear. darkfriends cannot stand the sight of him and or he can now see darkfriends. and since bashere was present in the storm of light chapter we would know for sure......

 

Other posters have provided a quote earlier in the thread that they think is a sign of DF Bashere reacting negatively to the light Rand gives off. IMO that is a pretty big stretch but we will see...

[Louise]

It's only about 5 posts above yours cancan4ever!

 

And yes, the evidence (or lack thereof) for the theory is sketchy at best BUT what if...?

 

There's plenty of things in the great WoT that are small and not blindingly obvious... I am just itching to get my paws on aMoL to find out!