Is Gawyn under Compulsion? (Spoilers for tGS)

[FarShainMael]

Is Gawyn's intention to assassinate the Dragon Reborn the result of Compulsion?

 

Let's look at brief summary of Gawyn's actions, starting after Siuan is deposed and stilled, and the battle in which Gawyn kills Hammar and Coulin.

 

Gawyn first hears the rumour about deaths of Morgase and Elayne in LoC Prologue, from the peddler Mil Tesen. He recalls his oath: 'My blood shed before hers; my life given before hers.' The meaning of that oath had been explained to him by Gareth Bryne. He thinks that what the peddler told him was only a rumour, but that 'rumours on everyone's lips sometimes had a way of turning out true.' He promises himself that 'if they were dead, he would see whether the Dragon Reborn could live with a sword through his heart.'

 

He doesn't stop to consider two things: first, that the DR can channel, and could wrap him up in the Power before he could get his sword out of his scabbard; second, that the DR is needed at TG, and wouldn't be much use to the world dead.

 

Later, in LoC25, he lets Egwene make him promise not to go after Rand until she can prove that Rand did not kill Morgase.

 

In LoC50, Rand sends a note to Coiren, in which he also invites Gawyn to visit him at the Sun Palace, but Gawyn does not reply and does not come. Rand concludes that Gawyn must believe the stories about Rand killing Morgase. But why doesn't Gawyn take this opportunity to confront and destroy his supposed enemy? Perhaps the note simply didn't reach him. Coiren was the leader of the group of AS that kidnapped Rand - the group that included Galina Casban and Katerine Alruddin, both of whom are BA.

 

At the battle of Dumai's Wells (LoC55), Gawyn is leading the Younglings, under the orders of Galina. He still wants to kill Rand, but is sickened by the way the AS are treating him, putting him in that box in a wagon with no canvas cover. After Rand escapes from the box, he and Gawyn come face to face. Gawyn tells Min that he can take her away from ther, but Min refuses, telling Gawyn that Elayne loves Rand. Gawyn tells Rand that someday he will see him die, then leaves with the Younglings.

 

But why doesn't he say something like 'Elayne's dead, that monster killed her'? Or why hasn't he realised that Min is talking of Elayne as alive?

 

He's recalling his promise to Egwene, as is confirmed in aCoS Prologue. Later, he thinks to himself that If Elayne loved Rand, he should have killed him to save her from such a 'dreadful fate'. Then he starts thinking about his promise to Egwene.

 

He was a fool. He should have killed al'Thor, he had to kill him. But he could not. Not because the man was the Dragon Reborn, but he had promised Egwene not to raise a hand against al'Thor.

 

...

 

He could not break his word, least of all to the woman he loved. Never his word to her. Whatever the cost to himself... It was said that love addled men's brains, and he was the proof.

 

And there is still no thought about Elayne. He really should be wondering about that, and about his babyhood oath to her as First Prince of the Sword, even when thinking specifically about not breaking his word.

 

But he is coming to believe that either Elaida or Galina want the Younglings dead; he has fewer than 200 left out of the original 581 he brought to Dumai's Wells. His certainty grows in tGS4.

 

The chapter opens with Gawyn PoV; he's leading the Younglings behind the 'rebel' lines, behind Bryne. They have a chance to engage one of Bryne's patrols, but Gawyn doesn't take it. Gawyn thinks about his situation:

 

Gawyn had thought he was over Hammar and Coulin's deaths; Bryne himself had taught Gawyn that the battlefield sometimes made allies into sudden foes. Gawyn hadf fought his former teachers, and Gawyn had won. That was the end of it.

 

Recently, however, his mind seemed determined to dredge up those corpses and carry them about. Why now, after so long?

 

Later on, he asks one of his companions, Rajar, where they went wrong. Rajar queries this. Gawyn replies:

 

"I wasn't talking about the raid.. I'm talking about this whole bloody situation. You shouldn't have to go on supply raids or spend your time killing scouts; you should have become a Warder to some freshly minted Aes Sedai by now." And I should be back in Caemlyn, with Elayne.

 

Gawyn goes on in his thoughts to recognise that his force of 300 youths was, er, somewhat outmatched by Bryne's 50k hardened soldiers commanded by one of the Great Captains; that his efforts were futile and meaningless.

 

It was enough to make a man think that the Amyrlin just wanted him, and the other Younglings, out of the way. Before Dumai's wells, Gawyn had suspected that was the case. Now, he was growing certain. And yet you continue to follow her orders, he thought to himself.

 

In TGS13, after a practice fight with Sleete and Marlesh, Gawyn learns From Katerine Alruddin (who apparently Travelled to an AS meeting) that Egwene was made Amyrlin by the 'rebels', but that she is now held prisoner in the White Tower, and 'made to howl half the day'. He is certain that Elaida intends to still her and execute her.

 

He asks himself: where is your loyalty, Gawyn Trakand?

 

Gawyn decides to leave the Younglings, and go to Gareth Bryne for help in rescuing Egwene.

 

In tGS24, he fights his way in to talk to Bryne. He receives a dressing-down from his former teacher, which makes him feel ashamed. He apologises, and recognises that he was a fiool to threaten Bryne with force. Bryne says:

 

'I was beginning to wonder what had happened to you.'

 

Gawyn is unable to persuade Bryne to mount a rescue, since he has promised Egwene that he will not try. But he does - at last - accept Bryne's word that his sister lives and has taken her throne.

 

Bryne reminds him of his oath to Elayne, made before Bryne himself, and says Gawyn should be with his sister. Gawyn replies that Elayne is safe (!) and therefore Egwene takes priority. But, when Bryne asks him 'what is Egwene to you', he admits he doesn't know, he wishews he did.

 

Then Bryne tells Gawyn why he left Andor, because of Morgase's behaviour with Gaebril (who neither of them realise is a forsaken!). Bryne says Gawyn should be back in Andor, and advises him to ask Elayne about their mother's actions.

 

Gawyn is furious. But, instead of attacking Bryne for insulting his mother, Gawyn's hatred of Rand is rekindled.

 

After Egwene is rescued from the Tower following the Seanchan raid, the last we see of him is in tGS46, just before Egwene goes to the Hall to be raised to Amyrlin. Tesan asks Egwene if Gawyn is her Warder:

 

She regarded Gawyn, and was forced to confront a whole mess of emotions. Anger, affection, passion, and regret. What a strange mix. "No," she said. She stared Gawyn in the eyes."What I am going to do next you cannot be part of, Gawyn. Wait here."

 

 

Is it Compulsion? If so, it's very light. Gawyn's thought processes are muddled, certainly, but he retains some conscience. Things he should be considering, such as the need for the DR to be present at TG, have not occurred to him; he doesn't notice that Min has implied that Elayne is alive, until Bryne tells him; he doesn't wonder what that means about Morgase, or thump Bryne for insulting her. But, he does wonder about the Tower's true intentions towards him and the Younglings; he does wonder about his loyalties; and he's ashamed before Bryne. Over all of this is his love for Egwene - and, opposed to that, a driving need to kill the DR.

 

Of course, Gawyn was under Galina's orders. No doubt Mesaana was watching him as well.

 

We don't know, at this stage (end of tGS), where Gawyn is or what he is doing. Egwene has thought to herself that she intends to bond him and marry him (tGS 38); but her thoughts of 'anger, affection, passion, and regret' seem to indicate that this may not happen. Did she send him back to Caemlyn, to be with his sister? Or is he still at the Tower, perhaps in response to his conjectured Compulsion? We are told that, in the later stages of ToM, Rand and Egwene will meet. Will Gawyn be around then? What will happen?

[Shard]

See now this is how you convince someone that maybe Gawyn will kill Rand. Very good post here FSM.

[FarShainMael]

Thanks!

 

I think he's going to try. I don't think he'll succeed..

 

Another thought occurred to me while I was upstairs scrubbing the wall ready to continue papering (it's a long job.. sigh). Suppose Gawyn has gone / been sent back to Caemlyn. He meets up with Elayne, who by now is obviously enceinté:

 

Gawyn: Light! You're pregnant! Who's the father? I'll kill him!

 

Elayne: Er.. Rand.

 

Gawyn: How could you! With that monster! I'll kill you! And then I'll kill him!

 

Draws sword, tries to strike at Elayne.. Birgitte puts an arrow through him.

 

(This is brought to mind by the fact that in the Arthur legend, Morgause was killed by one of her sons because she was having an affair with Lamorak..)

[Naffy]

Intersting theory. I think that the whole Gawyn storyline has two possible results.

 

1. He tries to kill Rand yet Rand kills him to save himself. This will then fulfill the foretelling of Rand facing the Amyrylin's anger.

2. Gawyn kills Rand because Rand refuses to strike down Elayne's brother.

 

Either way, as much as I hate Gawyn, I am looking forward to his storyline.

[FarShainMael]

I blieve that in LoC50, after Gawyn ignores Rand's note, Rand thinks to himself that he doesn't want to have to kill Elayne's brother. But then, of course, he doesn't need to; just channel at him.

 

(Good grief. I'm lysdexic tadoy! ;) )

[sleepinghour]

I think Gawyn's mistakes are his own and not the result of Compulsion. As Narishma said in TGS, "Good people can do the wrong thing."

 

This isn't the only time Gawyn's jumped to conclusions and been quick to assign guilt -- he acted that way with Siuan too. Whenever something bad happens, Gawyn's first instinct seems to be to find someone he can hold responsible so he can punish them instead of feeling helpless, to make up for his own failure to protect his family and Egwene. Which doesn't make him a bad guy, just human...but it's a dangerous trait coupled with his willingness to act like judge, jury, and executioner without any proof of guilt.

[FarShainMael]

You'd think his mother, and his tutor Gareth Bryne, would have noticed that and beaten it out of him, wouldn't you?

[Shard]

And there is still no thought about Elayne. He really should be wondering about that' date=' and about his babyhood oath to her as First Prince of the Sword, even when thinking specifically about not breaking his word.[/quote']

 

That's a big part of the problem I have with Gawyn, I realize that this adds to his character, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. I just can't fathom WHY he would choose to stay with Elaida at all especially given the fact that he had grown so mistrustful of Suian to begin with. Galad doesn't stick around at all so why does Gawyn? He has a childhood oath to protect his sister and yet on the mearest rumor that she is dead he doesn't seek to find out the truth.

 

I'm trying to remember where but I thought that Gawyn reflected on how blurred the events of the Tower coup was, this could be a result of him just trying to block it out though.

 

Still you do bring up the good point that not only his Mother and Mentor but Hammar and Coulin as well. You'd think they would teach him to be more patient, more open minded, etc. It just makes Elayne look like a terrible judge of character when Galad seems to be the more reasonable and open minded brother.

[FarShainMael]

Recall that Bryne says 'I was beginning to wonder what had happened to you'. That may indicate that Gawyn 's personality has changed since Bryne last knew him; which brings us back to Compulsion.

[sleepinghour]

Recall that Bryne says 'I was beginning to wonder what had happened to you'. That may indicate that Gawyn 's personality has changed since Bryne last knew him; which brings us back to Compulsion.

 

There is nothing strange about Gawyn having changed a lot since Bryne last saw him; it's been over a year since then, during which Gawyn went through several major life changes, including believing his mother murdered. Bryne himself went from being Morgase's devoted lover to thinking Andor was better off without her, and news of her death also had a profound effect on Galad.

 

As disappointing as it is to see a likeable character turn into a dangerous fool, he's far from the only well-intentioned character who ended up on the wrong path. Just look at Perrin...would any of his close friends ever have guessed Perrin would be capable of cutting someone's hand off? That Rand would balefire a palace? People under intense stress can do things nobody ever dreamed they'd do, least of all themselves.

 

There's also the question of who had the opportunity and ability to use Compulsion on Gawyn. RJ confirmed the peddler that brought him the news of Morgase really was just an ordinary peddler, and we've never seen Gawyn near any other people likely to be Forsaken in disguise. He's been near a few Black sisters like Galina and Elza, but nothing in their POVs indicate they've done something to Gawyn or even know Compulsion.

[Tiinker]

Too many "supposedly"'s in this book :)

[Crael123]

very cool and well written, but how does that prove Gawyn is under cuompulsion? it could be he is too angry to see reason. and if he is, who put him under? i doubt Mesaana would be stupid enough to give Compulsion to some BA sister. that is really her kind of move from what we have seen is it? and why would she care so much about some prince with no power really? how would that benefit the dark?

[Terez]

See now this is how you convince someone that maybe Gawyn will kill Rand.

 

What, by basing a theory on a theory instead of using actual evidence like foreshadowing and parallels? There's no reason to think Gawyn is under Compulsion; all of his actions are explained by his misguided sense of honor and his flawed character.

[FarShainMael]

There is nothing strange about Gawyn having changed a lot since Bryne last saw him; it's been over a year since then, during which Gawyn went through several major life changes, including believing his mother murdered. Bryne himself went from being Morgase's devoted lover to thinking Andor was better off without her, and news of her death also had a profound effect on Galad.

 

Quite true; but Bryne, an experienced commander of men, would have known that. Yet he still made that comment.

 

There's also the question of who had the opportunity and ability to use Compulsion on Gawyn. RJ confirmed the peddler that brought him the news of Morgase really was just an ordinary peddler, and we've never seen Gawyn near any other people likely to be Forsaken in disguise. He's been near a few Black sisters like Galina and Elza, but nothing in their POVs indicate they've done something to Gawyn or even know Compulsion.

 

It certainly wasn't the peddler, no. The Compulsion could easily have been applied much earlier, before the coup that deposed Siuan. As to who did it - on consideratioin, I don't think it was Galina; if she knew the weave, she would surely have used it in Malden to get someone to grab that binder for her. It could have been Mesaana, but I get the impression she doesn't get involved directly. It could even have been Sheriam, Eggy's keeper! And how's this for a way-out thought: what if it was Verin? She may have been ordered to Compel Gawyn; she could not disobey that order, but she could modify or weaken it.

[FarShainMael]

very cool and well written, but how does that prove Gawyn is under cuompulsion? it could be he is too angry to see reason. and if he is, who put him under? i doubt Mesaana would be stupid enough to give Compulsion to some BA sister. that is really her kind of move from what we have seen is it? and why would she care so much about some prince with no power really? how would that benefit the dark?

 

The muddle of Gawyn's thought processes, in a person with his background and training, suggests that something is very wrong indeed.

 

As for 'how would it benefit the Dark?', consider who wants Rand dead, and why.

 

Gawyn is in a good position to do this, he's a prince with access to at least two of Rand's lady companions; and there's a ready-made motivation: the supposed death of his mother.

[Shard]

What, by basing a theory on a theory instead of using actual evidence like foreshadowing and parallels? There's no reason to think Gawyn is under Compulsion; all of his actions are explained by his misguided sense of honor and his flawed character.

 

No basing it on evidence from the books rather then from Mythology.

[PatsNats28]

Personally, I think he's just Elaida-like in that he isn't a Darkfriend, but he harms the Light's cause (basically the most annoying type of character). I do like the theory, but don't think there's anything behind it. Of course, I've been wrong before...

[Auld Manriva]

What, by basing a theory on a theory instead of using actual evidence like foreshadowing and parallels? There's no reason to think Gawyn is under Compulsion; all of his actions are explained by his misguided sense of honor and his flawed character.

 

BRAVO!! It's not often I agree with Terez, her bein' a Mississippian an' all (bein' a Bama Lad m'self it's against all natural AND unnatural law), but I must applaud this particular post.

 

Gawyn COMPULSED? Huh? Wow.. ya' know this is just the kind of thing that proves some people, got's too much time. The simple fact is ... Gawyn is a magnificently portrayed gargantuan TWIT!! Compulsion? Phawwwww.

 

He's his mothers' son is his major malfunction. He's an arrogant know-it-all whose determinations override those of everyone else without consideration. Not only that but he's a follower who is mistakenly convinced he should lead. What he really needs is a size 13 up the caboose, in public! A little humility would go a long way for this lad. Where's the Prince of Ravens with a wrist thick quarterstaff when he's needed?

 

Maybe they'll meet in Camelyn at the OK Corral. Or the Queen's Blessing Stables, whichever comes first. <_<

[Terez]

No basing it on evidence from the books rather then from Mythology.

 

You must have missed the TONS of evidence from the books that I used, and the fact that RJ verified that the story is supposed to be the basis of our mythology, and that he verified the importance of Arthurian legend. It's all evidence, whether or not you like it, and much more solid than an assumption that Gawyn has been Compelled (which doesn't even necessarily suggest he will try to kill Rand).

[ChrisTrebing]

I suppose it is possible Gawyn was compelled, but that leaves us asking what is the motive? It would be far easier to isolate a few Aiel who were going to be Rand's guard and compel them to kill. Or compelling a ruler not to accept Rand. Or even trying to get one of Rand's friends alone and compel them. It seems there is a rather long list of people the forsaken could compel to better themselves and their position, and from the way I see it, Gawyn would be pretty low on that list. If he was compelled when you think, he would have just been a dethroned prince leading a small force of young scouts or a warder in training at the time of compulsion.

[FarShainMael]

This is Andor's First Prince of the Sword, remember. He's in a powerful position, not only to knock off Rand, but to influence his sister. Agreed Elayne wasn't on the throne at the time, but she was the Daughter-Heir; and to a mother who was already under Compulsion herself.

 

Actually, that leads me to a thought. I'd have to check the timelines, but it's possible Gawyn was Compelled after Rahvin was killed. The DF knew Elayne would aim for the Succession; they'd want someone on hand.

[Crael123]

very cool and well written, but how does that prove Gawyn is under cuompulsion? it could be he is too angry to see reason. and if he is, who put him under? i doubt Mesaana would be stupid enough to give Compulsion to some BA sister. that is really her kind of move from what we have seen is it? and why would she care so much about some prince with no power really? how would that benefit the dark?

 

The muddle of Gawyn's thought processes, in a person with his background and training, suggests that something is very wrong indeed.

 

As for 'how would it benefit the Dark?', consider who wants Rand dead, and why.

 

Gawyn is in a good position to do this, he's a prince with access to at least two of Rand's lady companions; and there's a ready-made motivation: the supposed death of his mother.

 

 

oh well that does make sense then

[Sharaman]

The man acts so permanently confused that it's difficult to say if he's under C or just thick. It's a reasonable explanation though. Maybe that's why Egwene has that weird vision - at some stage G's lust/love will war with the befehl of the C, whatever that is? BTW if G is under C, it's likely to have been laid on before he decided to side with Elaida and co. during the Tower revolution.

[b3arz3rg3r]

I've always thought that Gawyn was just stupid and not under any magical influence. He's always been too ready to follow authority blindly, which is how he has been raised from the get go. His mother, Elayne, Galad, Elaida and now he has Egwene. Their truths become his truths and he never bothers to examine them himself.

[balefireruinssteaks]

The obvious answer is that Gawyn has a secret crush on Rand and feels that he must kill him before anyone finds out about it. That explains a lot.