Male Aiel Channelers

[Luckers]

"So you are one of those the Aes Sedai call wilders." There was a hint of something in the last word, but whether scorn or pity, Nynaeve did not like it. The term was seldom complimentary, in, the Tower. Of course, there were no wilders among the Aiel. The Wise' Ones who could channel found every last girl with the spark born in her, those who would develop the ability to channel sooner or later even if they did not try to learn. They claimed also to find every girl without the spark who could learn if instructed. No Aiel girl died trying to learn by herself.

 

[LoC - Meetings]

 

As i said, it is a claim on their part, but given their efficiency and the fact that i don't see them given to baseless bragging, i don't doubt it.

 

Then there is the Glossary Entry.

 

A good many Wise Ones can channel to one degree or another; they find every Aiel woman born with the spark in her and most of those who can learn.

 

So therein it says most--either way that they make a proactive and largely successful effort to find all the learners is clear.

[Roxinos]

And just in case you actually want to know where you can find that the Aiel search for learners, just look at the glossary.

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=Q5wOo82LIoAC&pg=PA684&lpg=PA684&dq=aiel+search+look+learn+channel&source=web&ots=jNIRFZiHEC&sig=px1Bj04QIy2t6137idvDVWYcAKg&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result

 

That's the glossary of A Crown of Swords.

[Kaznen]

Independent of the rebuttal sources I thought about how Sorilia can barely channel.  But those born with the spark are the strongest channelers.  Therefor, she must have been a learner.

 

I was wrong, I'm sorry.

[Navaros]

The discussion has really strayed from the question at hand - Is someone tapping the Aiel male learners pool or not? Clearly we can only speculate on this since there have been no sections dedicated to this(at least to my knowledge). I like the idea that tapping this resource might actually be Rand's plan B if plan A (BT) fails him  miserably and turns on him. It would be hard to keep this secret but certainly not impossible. Maybe that's also why he never has time to visit the BT. Not only becuase of all his other tasks but also because of the necessity to teach to Aiel learners. Of course, this might be stretching it a bit too far since such prolonged absences would likely be noted by his entourage. So an Aiel BT? "Unlikely" with the current info we have, but not "unthinkable."

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Is someone tapping the Aiel male learners pool or not? Clearly we can only speculate on this since there have been no sections dedicated to this(at least to my knowledge).

There are 2 sides to this: The Light and The Shadow.

 

Neither side, to my knowledge, have mentioned anything to do with male Aiel channelers beyond the statement that they head into the Blight to die once they realize what's happening to them. I believe it was in reference to Rand's dad going off to die in the Blight after his wife died. He went, I believe, with a group of young men. It was with reference to that, that the male channelers were mentioned. Therefore, everything we talk about is pure speculation, to a point.

 

The Light

Cons:

1. We haven't heard of Rand talking to the Aiel about their male channelers. He hasn't shown any interest to date.

2. The only mechanism Aiel society appears to have to deal with a male channeler, and you'd have thought that we'd hear about one given that Rand is the Cara'carn, is for them to take themselves off to the Blight.

3. We've seen a lot of Ashamen, but no mention of an Aiel. One would have thought that, due to RJs descriptive writing style, we'd have seen/heard of them among the ranks, if they were there. Therefore, the Ashamen do not seem to be recruiting among the Aiel.

 

Possible:

It may be possible, in my opinion, to stop Aiel men going off to die in the Blight. Their going off to die doesn't appear to be due to a fear of the power. It's down to the fact that they will go mad and inflict losses on the hold (in my opinion) and generally die miserably. The natural response, from an Aiel, would be to head off and do as much Trolloc-killing as possible (in my opinion).

 

Once it is made clear to the Aiel, and I mean crystal clear to the entire society, not "Well, he knows because he spoke to him on page 9,356 of Book 6," it should prove possible to recruit Aiel Ashamen. This notification could be given by sending clan chiefs and wise ones with Ashamen to all the holds via gateways to make the proclamation. Why wouldn't it be possible?

 

They would, in effect, be forced to go to the BT. They'd die otherwise. Given the choice of being trained to use the power in the run up to the fight with the DO, and dying a slow nasty death due to lack of training, well ... I can't see them refusing; especially given the pragmatic nature of the Wise Ones to their female counterparts and the social pressure they could bring to bear.

 

Essentially, I believe that the Aiel's sense of duty and general hatred of all things Shadow, would drive them to seek training from Rands Ashamen. This is despite their discomfort at the idea.

 

The Shadow

Cons:

1. Taim doesn't appear to have engaged in recruiting Aiel DFs (or unwilling stooges) via the BT. -- Therefore, the same issues apply as for the Light.

2. No mention of the Aiel channelers, that I am aware of, has been made by any of the Forsaken.

3. We haven’t encountered any male Shadow channelers apart from the Forsaken, and the renegade Ashamen.

 

Possibles:

It stretches things to far, in my opinion, to suggest that the Shadow has been ignoring a steady source of male channelers delivered onto their doorstep.

 

Given that Aiel female channelers are within normal society and are producing kids, you'd expect there to be more Aiel male channelers. The gene isn't dying out due to seclusion of the females as it is in the West. Granted, the men are still dying off. Though they are not being hunted, which suggests that they too might contribute to the gene pool before toddling off to the Blight. -- I can't recall when male sparkers get going, but I do remember Egwenes Accepted test in which she saw herself married to Rand with a baby.

 

Then there are issues.

How do you convince/make an Aiel (given how they are) join the Dark Side?

Easy.

Turn them using Myrdraal and the Black Ajah / any other DF female channeler.

 

You don't even have to keep 13 channelers in place. You merely go get them when you've grabbed a male. All it'd require was a handful around at any time to shield/deal with the men. A trained Aes Sedai should be able to deal with an untrained man. Recently Shadar Haran has solved any dilemma for them.

 

Then there's always the offer of protection against the taint (the average Aiel blacksmith doesn’t know the taint’s gone). Even though Aiel are Aiel, I'm sure there'll be a few who take up the offer.

 

Once you’ve got them you then have to train them. That’s much tougher.

 

However, given that the DO is fully aware that the Last Battle is on the horizon (and has been for 20ish years given the unsanctioned slaughter the BA undertook when they learnt of Rand’s birth), I find it hard to believe that the Shadow hasn’t been doing something to round up a few male channelers.

 

Given that it is entirely possible that there are DF men who happen to be channelers, there is a good chance that the Shadow has channeling men. Once it became clear that a DF was channeling, it shouldn’t have proved to be too difficult to take them off to the Blight, or somewhere else safe. As a result, the Shadow should (by law of average alone) have had some access to male channelers.

 

As for the training …

 

Well, given that they aren’t going to go mad (due to the protection from the DO), that they can train in a safe place without fear of being gentled, and that they live for a long time due to the life-enhancing properties of the power… There’s every reason to think that a DF channeler found in this way could teach themselves a rudimentary level of control. And that those recruited in the past might still be alive. We’ve seen it in Rand pre-SR, Logain, and the channeling False Dragons through history. Why not among DFs? Given the advantages they hold, one might expect them to have got further than the Lightsiders.

 

As a result, it’s not beyond the realm of possibility that the DO has a small number of trainers to teach any Aiel he snaps up. Sure, it’s not Forsaken-inspired, as much of the Ashamen’s techniques are, either through Taim or secondhand from Rand, but it’s a start.

 

We’ve seen the numbers the BT can churn out. While the DO won’t have the same number of recruits, because she’s/he’s/it’s not scouring the planet like Rand, she/he/it should be able to produce numbers pretty quickly.

 

Why might the Forsaken not know of this?

 

They’ve been kept in the dark (pardon the pun) about other plans, why not another? They seem, apart from Demandred, to rarely go to Shadar Logoth, so their knowledge of what’s happening there might well be limited.

 

Anyways, that’s all pure speculation.

 

The answer is, as far as we are aware, that make Aiel channelers head off into the Blight and die. The only back up for that appears to be a conversation quite some time ago (I can’t remember where it’s from.)

 

It just seems to me that that’s an awfully large number of channelers in a series where they dominate the world, to be totally ignored.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Is someone tapping the Aiel male learners pool or not?

Whoops ... just reread the question...

 

Learners

I don't think anyone is at the moment, for all the reasons covered above.

 

However, once a proclamation has been made, what's to stop the Ashamen travelling among the Aiel and rounding people up?

 

Would they go, given that they're not sparkers? Not sure. But, I'd imagine that, if Rand could get the Wise Ones onside with idea, then he'd have more of a chance.

 

I guess, from a pragmatic angle, that the Aiel might admit that they can cause more damage to the Shadow by channeling. They do seem to be heavily influenced by fate, after all. However, if that'd be enough to overcome any lingering resistance to idea is anyone's guess.

 

As for the Shadow recruiting them. Well, I doubt it's possible on a large scale. Firstly, we've only met one DF among the Aiel (if I'm right). Does that mean that there are fewer? Not sure.

 

Then there's the problems recruiting large numbers of non-DF Aiel. How do you go about it?

 

Can a learner be turned before they channel? Or do you have to get them going before it works?

 

 

 

[Luckers]

However, once a proclamation has been made, what's to stop the Ashamen travelling among the Aiel and rounding people up?

 

Well I imagine the Wise Ones will have something to say about it. And frankly I see the Wise Ones being more inclined to include the Aiel men who can channel, than to allow an external group to train them.

 

 

 

 

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Well I imagine the Wise Ones will have something to say about it.

I'm sure they would.

 

However, I did indicate that that might be done after an accomodation had been reached, if possible. Rand being the Cara'carn and the Last Battle being a short way away would certainly count for something.

 

I think the Aiel, given their mindset, might well agree. But I see that it wouldn't be an easy job to convince them.

And frankly I see the Wise Ones being more inclined to include the Aiel men who can channel, than to allow an external group to train them.

Who'd train them? There are no male Aiel channelers.

 

Include them in what? Given that the BT is the only male channeling school.

 

The Ashaman are the only people on the side of the Light who could work with them. They already have the infrastructure in place at the moment. Though obviously there's a clash between Taims lot and Logain/Rand on the horizon, that'll affect their ability to train large numbers.

 

The other alternative is to send trainers to the Aiel. But then, from an logistical view, you'd never acheive the same numbers as you would if you trained them in-house. I'd imagine that the student:teacher ratio would get too low for it to be effective, given the limited number of teachers. Bearing in mind that the total Aiel population is huge, then in-house training is the only sensible course.

 

There is no option in my opinion. If Rand wants to use male Aiel channelers they have to be trained by the Ashamen. In order for that to be effective, and to continue to train Wetlanders, then the Aiel have to go to the BT at present. -- Though obviously, Taim vs. Logain/Rand will be a deciding factor on the future of the BT altogether.

[Luckers]

However, I did indicate that that might be done after an accomodation had been reached, if possible. Rand being the Cara'carn and the Last Battle being a short way away would certainly count for something.

 

I think the Aiel, given their mindset, might well agree. But I see that it wouldn't be an easy job to convince them.

 

I don't see the Aiel agreeing... much like how Aviendha dismissed the idea of approaching the Asha'men for an alliance in the fact of the Cleansing, I don't see the prospect of destruction being an overly influential tool against the Aiel. And to be clear I'm talking pre-cleansing. They accept that Rand can channel, but they are too aware of the overall dangers of male channeling to permit it.

 

In the post-cleansing world, I think the Wise Ones would take charge of training the male channelers themselves. But back to that in a moment.

 

Quote

And frankly I see the Wise Ones being more inclined to include the Aiel men who can channel, than to allow an external group to train them.

 

Who'd train them? There are no male Aiel channelers.

 

Include them in what? Given that the BT is the only male channeling school.

 

Include them in the Wise Ones. Unlike the Aes Sedai the Aiel have no especial fear of male channelers, no great prejudice. In the face of the cleansing i believe the Wise One's reaction will be that they feel they owe a duty to the male channelers amongst the Aiel.

 

Now, from there we need to make a distinction. The Wise One's agenda would not be numbers--the logstical issues you've raised are only an issue if Rand is trying to ammount numbers to fight Tarmon Gai'don, and quite clearly Rand is not doing that with the Aiel. He probably should be, but he isn't--and to be fair had he actually tried he probably would have had problems with the Wise One's anyway.

 

So, the Wise One's might seek Rand's aid in the specific reality of a man who sparks following the cleansing--but long term, their goals would be more local.

 

The other alternative is to send trainers to the Aiel. But then, from an logistical view, you'd never acheive the same numbers as you would if you trained them in-house. I'd imagine that the student:teacher ratio would get too low for it to be effective, given the limited number of teachers. Bearing in mind that the total Aiel population is huge, then in-house training is the only sensible course.

 

Well, I'd point out that Taim, one man, managed to create and train near a thousand in less than a year...

 

I'd also point out that the Aiel channeling population is relatively small. There are 6,000 female channelers and [edited for factuality, check the very bottom of this post for my new position],

 

Either way, one trainer would be able to deal with whatever sparkers the Aiel produce.

 

There is no option in my opinion. If Rand wants to use male Aiel channelers they have to be trained by the Ashamen. In order for that to be effective, and to continue to train Wetlanders, then the Aiel have to go to the BT at present. -- Though obviously, Taim vs. Logain/Rand will be a deciding factor on the future of the BT altogether.

 

Except, quite clearly, Rand doesn't want to use male Aiel channelers--mark my words, the manifestation of Aiel channelers will come under the Wise One's perview, resulting out of their sense of duty, not their desire to make an army.

 

 

 

 

Edit: Sorry I wish to correct myself on the number of Aiel channelers. Two things mess with that--one, channelers live up to 600 years. Therefore though there are 6,000 Wise Ones who can channel, alot of the men who would have been their opposites died of old age. Logically, the number of active female channelers provides us with a guide--6,000 women who live up to six hundred years suggests that 1,000 men of the current generation should have the ability.

 

Unfortunately thats not completely accurate either. For starters RJ stated that Wise Ones often die young due to the harsh nature of life in the Waste. Furthermore many Wise Ones don't survive the two trips to Rhuidean.

 

Ultimately I'd guess there are around 2,000 men with the ability amongst the Aiel numbers.

[Mik]

Let's speculate;

 

fact 1. Aiel males who can channel (sparkers) are send to the Blight (to spit in the Dark One's -or a few Trollocs- eyes & die somewhere in that process).

They have been doing since god knows when, but probably very long since their society has existed in this form after the Breaking.

 

fact 2. Ishamael was (at least partially) free after the Breaking and could influence the world at times to start wars & influence major events.

 

fact 3. Thirteen Dreadlords channeling through thirteen Myrddraal can turn a channeler to the Dark forcefully.

------------------------------------------------

 

Go back 2,5 thousand years in time.

The first Aiel male sparkers are going into the Blight. After some time, Ishamael notices the pattern & orders the Myrddraal to capture those males alive whatever the cost.

After a few tries, this succeeds and the first Aiel male sparker is caught, brought to Shayol Ghul and turned to the Dark with the help of thirteen female 'Friends'.

Rince & repeat a few times in a row.

 

Ishamael teaches the first 4 to 5 Dark Aiel male sparkers the basics of channeling like Taim is showing us in Andor. The above process takes just a few years at most.

 

Next batch of male Aiel sparkers to enter the blight is more easily caught, since;

a> What you repeat, you get better at. The Myrddraal know what they face and how the Aiel will respond.

b> the Dark now has a few male Aiel channelers on it's side who know about Aiel custom and they can wrap their non-Dark brethren in flows of Air.

 

What's even better... now they only need -say- 7 female 'Friends' to come help turn this new batch to the Dark, since -hey!!- there are already a few Dreadlords in the Blight! (namely; the Dark male Aiel sparkers!)

 

Rince & repeat this process for atleast the past two thousand years.

Madness might be a problem because it's unknown if the Dark One could make conduits for non-tainted One Power access. But even then, the same 'solution' could be used as Rand/ Taim did. "the Cup of Sleep".

 

------------------------------------------------

to sum it up; for the past 2,5 thousand years, a hidden "Black Tower" of male Aiel channelers could exist in the Blight. It would only need one cycle of Ishamael's freedom to teach a few caught & turned male Aiel channelers the basics of channeling like Taim is doing right now in Andor.

Et voila, you have yourself a self-suplying/replennishing army of Dreadlords.

 

Fun thought? Hell yes.

Realistic? Hell no.

Still funny enough to consider.

[Navaros]

 

In the post-cleansing world, I think the Wise Ones would take charge of training the male channelers themselves. But back to that in a moment.

...

Quote

And frankly I see the Wise Ones being more inclined to include the Aiel men who can channel, than to allow an external group to train them.

 

Who'd train them? There are no male Aiel channelers.

 

Include them in what? Given that the BT is the only male channeling school.

 

Include them in the Wise Ones. Unlike the Aes Sedai the Aiel have no especial fear of male channelers, no great prejudice. In the face of the cleansing i believe the Wise One's reaction will be that they feel they owe a duty to the male channelers amongst the Aiel.

 

The Wise Ones, being female channelers, can't teach male channelers squat. If a male channeler is not a sparker, female channelers can't even sense that he can be thought to channel. Heck, even Rand who is a sparker couldn't be recognized by Moiraine until somewhere at the end of Book 1. She only guessed it might be him because Bela was Healed, etc. but even with him channeling next to her she didn't feel anything at the time. So, if anyone wants aiel learners to channel, he/she has to give them male channeler teachers, no other viable option.

 

Et voila, you have yourself a self-suplying/replennishing army of Dreadlords.

Grim perspective... very plausible nonetheless. We don't get any hints about that in the books and noone seems to know of such an army, but the DO might be hiding them from all just as Rand might be doing the same thing.

[Luckers]

The Wise Ones, being female channelers, can't teach male channelers squat. If a male channeler is not a sparker, female channelers can't even sense that he can be thought to channel. Heck, even Rand who is a sparker couldn't be recognized by Moiraine until somewhere at the end of Book 1. She only guessed it might be him because Bela was Healed, etc. but even with him channeling next to her she didn't feel anything at the time. So, if anyone wants aiel learners to channel, he/she has to give them male channeler teachers, no other viable option.

 

Read my full post, mate. It'd be helpful to your confusion.

[Mik]

Et voila, you have yourself a self-suplying/replennishing army of Dreadlords.

Grim perspective... very plausible nonetheless. We don't get any hints about that in the books and noone seems to know of such an army, but the DO might be hiding them from all just as Rand might be doing the same thing.

I wouldn't want to call it 'very' plausible. Not one character ever hinted at it. No proof whatso-ever.

That doesn't make it impossible, but I doubt RJ would pull out that ace from his sleeve and expect us all to find it normal for him to play it. I just wouldn't be right -bad writing almost- to try and pull this one off.

Besides, the Black Tower already is a training ground for Dreadlords, so story-wise, I doubt there's even a need for a "Blight Tower".

 

It would be so ironic though;

Those who once lived by the Covenant & were pledged to peace, the very "Children of the Dragon" himself, unknowingly providing their nemesis -the one they collectively pledge to fight untill their dying breath- with a huge army of male Dreadlords.

 

Oh wouldn't it be great if Janduin was a learner and is now part of the "Blight Tower"... ;)

Oh oh oh, the irony.

 

*que heavy breathing*

"Rand, I am your faaaatherrrr"

 

*cackles madly*

 

edit:

(and yes, I know Amys sais Janduin is killed by Slayer. Nonetheless, what doesshe know!?)

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

It's clear that we're looking at this from different angles.

 

I was merely posting a hypothetical idea on how Rand could train up the Aiel if he wanted to use them. He clearly hasn't as yet, and therefore it's pretty unlikely that he'll start now. I am aware of that.

 

That said, all my posting was based upon the idea that there is a pool of channelers to be had before TG. i.e. for use in TG.

 

I, at no point, considered the future, as it was beyond my interest in the subject.

 

The poster I responded to asked if the Aiel learners were being tapped by anyone. The short, and dull, answer is "No, to the best of our knowledge, they are not." I answered that, and then went on a ramble. Which I'm quite enjoying and not taking too seriously.  :D

 

However, for the sake of it...

I don't see the Aiel agreeing... much like how Aviendha dismissed the idea of approaching the Asha'men for an alliance in the fact of the Cleansing

Yes, but an alliance is one thing. Intergration and training for TG is another. We've seen how determined the Wise Ones are to save a "remenant of a remenant".

 

I'm aware that could spur them to either send men to learn, or to keep them out. I think both sides are plausible. Though, personally, I'd think that no Aiel could walk away from the idea of being a weapon against the Shadow, a more effective weapon than they were at present.

I don't see the prospect of destruction being an overly influential tool against the Aiel.

Neither do I. I do, however, see the prospect of taking the battle to the DO and thwarting his plans to be a real spur.

And to be clear I'm talking pre-cleansing. They accept that Rand can channel, but they are too aware of the overall dangers of male channeling to permit it.

My ideas were post-cleansing, in the main.

 

Post-cleansing, well, we're not too sure how much the average Aiel knows. Though the message could be spread by WOs using the dream.

Include them in the Wise Ones. Unlike the Aes Sedai the Aiel have no especial fear of male channelers, no great prejudice. In the face of the cleansing i believe the Wise One's reaction will be that they feel they owe a duty to the male channelers amongst the Aiel.

Here's where we're at crossed paths. You're taking a longer view, I'm thinking about TG.

 

Yep, no doubt, the WOs themselves probably would, and rightly so in my opinion, take over the training of the potential male Wise Ones.

 

They'd probably end up with the same kind of affiliation to the Tower as Egwene is trying to form. But we'll see. I'd agree, they'd predominantly be an Aiel-lead group.

Now, from there we need to make a distinction. The Wise One's agenda would not be numbers--the logstical issues you've raised are only an issue if Rand is trying to ammount numbers to fight Tarmon Gai'don, and quite clearly Rand is not doing that with the Aiel. He probably should be, but he isn't--and to be fair had he actually tried he probably would have had problems with the Wise One's anyway.

Oh, I agree. But then that's where we're talking about different things. I was merely speculating about TG.

 

I think, if he tried, that he could get around the WOs re. TG.

Well, I'd point out that Taim, one man, managed to create and train near a thousand in less than a year...

Yep. Given a base, given the required infrastructure, given the huge numbers of men he was having delivered. Setting up schools in random areas, I don't know.

 

Plus, Taim is Taim. Not every Ashaman is going to be as driven as him (once he hatched his cunning plan). He's a special case.

Except, quite clearly, Rand doesn't want to use male Aiel channelers--mark my words, the manifestation of Aiel channelers will come under the Wise One's perview, resulting out of their sense of duty, not their desire to make an army.

Yep. In the long run. Though I'd guess they'd have links to the Tower. It would make sense to me.

 

This was a hypothetical post. It's crystal that Rand isn't interested in the Aiel.

Ultimately I'd guess there are around 2,000 men with the ability amongst the Aiel numbers.

I'd take that guess, numbers look right.

 

So, there are more Aiel channelers than Taim has managed to train in one year. You quoted 1,000 Ashamen before. -- That's not a challenge to you, it's merely me setting the ground.

 

So, in order to train twice the number of men they'd, presumably, at least as much land, time, and effort to get 2,000 up and going. Given that they don't want to strip the BT, and given that Ashamen are also used in combat, etc., etc.

 

Thats a lot of time and effort. Centralization is the only sensible course.

 

Plus, we know the general figures. Our sources of knowledge allow us (primarily you, Luckers  :) ) to make an educated guess.

 

Rand doesn't have a clue. Yeah, he can make informed guesses, but he doesn't know.

 

I was under the impression that the general Aiel population (i.e. non-channelers) was huge. Given that, there's still a large number of men to check through to find the 2,000.

 

And therein lies the key. Large amounts of chaff, little wheat. They might not get many, but they wouldn't know until they started.

 

-- Anyways, this is all hypothetical, I'm not standing by this to the end. They're merely my thoughts.

[Navaros]

Read my full post, mate. It'd be helpful to your confusion.

 

Ok, just reread it for the 3rd time. So you mean "include them in the WOs" as a... a purpose in their life? And not about training? If so, yes you may be right. But they can't be included as WOs before a male trains them in using saidin. That's what I was getting at. And yes, I might have misunderstood your post. If I'm still not getting please elaborate (I might be dumb... :P)

[Luckers]

I wouldn't want to call it 'very' plausible. Not one character ever hinted at it. No proof whatso-ever.

That doesn't make it impossible, but I doubt RJ would pull out that ace from his sleeve and expect us all to find it normal for him to play it. I just wouldn't be right -bad writing almost- to try and pull this one off.

Besides, the Black Tower already is a training ground for Dreadlords, so story-wise, I doubt there's even a need for a "Blight Tower".

 

Well, by description there are barely 100 men loyal to the Shadow amongst the Asha'men--and 900 loyal to the Light.

 

A slight disadvantage is presented there. And it continues, we know that the Black Ajah is a minority, but even if we give them the benefit of the doubt and say one third are black that's still 700 Aes Sedai to 300 Black sisters. And then there are 6,000 Wise Ones, 1,800 kin, upwards of 8,000 damane, and maybe as much as 3,000 Windfinders.

 

None of the Kin and damane are darkfriends (and very very few of the sul'dam are either), but even if we give one third of Wise Ones and Windfinders to the Shadow, that's still a dramatic disadvantage--it evens out at 12,000 to 3,000.

 

And given that two dozen channelers in KoD took out a hundred thousand trollocs, that number difference becomes a fairly serious problem for the Shadow.

 

 

Frankly I don't see it being a huge problem. We have Taim's comments about gathering and training men--he claims they went mad, but given he's a darkfriend i doubt it. That means we have men being gathered from the Westland populace--and Liandrin also implies that all darkfriends are tested for the ability to channel, so women are probably being trained too. In truth that isn't a leap in and of itself--we know Ishamael did the same thing before the Trolloc Wars, and was able to gather numbers to equal the Tower (upwards of six thousand, at that time).

 

Similarily I don't see the Aiel men being a problem. All it would take is one well written chapter from the POV of one of those men wherin he considered how it had come about and it would work. It would have to be done well, of course--the way I'd write it would be to have the character concerned about something else, and through his experience of that other issue reveal the reality of Aiel men having been captured.

 

Still, it can be done. Probably needs to be.

 

It's clear that we're looking at this from different angles.

 

I was merely posting a hypothetical idea on how Rand could train up the Aiel if he wanted to use them. He clearly hasn't as yet, and therefore it's pretty unlikely that he'll start now. I am aware of that.

 

That said, all my posting was based upon the idea that there is a pool of channelers to be had before TG. i.e. for use in TG.

 

I, at no point, considered the future, as it was beyond my interest in the subject.

 

The poster I responded to asked if the Aiel learners were being tapped by anyone. The short, and dull, answer is "No, to the best of our knowledge, they are not." I answered that, and then went on a ramble. Which I'm quite enjoying and not taking too seriously.

 

Yeah I realised along the way that you were probably responding to a different idea than that which my initial comment was addressing.

 

Lets all go cross eyed now, lol.

 

Yes, but an alliance is one thing. Intergration and training for TG is another. We've seen how determined the Wise Ones are to save a "remenant of a remenant".

 

I'm aware that could spur them to either send men to learn, or to keep them out. I think both sides are plausible. Though, personally, I'd think that no Aiel could walk away from the idea of being a weapon against the Shadow, a more effective weapon than they were at present.

 

We have also seen, however, that they are not given to panicing. Yes, they desire to save the Aiel culture, but I do not believe they would to it at the expense of who that are--like, say the Aes Sedai seeking alliance with the Black Tower out of fear of the Cleansing (the percieved Forsaken weapon).

 

There are degrees at play--prior to the cleansing I'm fairly sure the Wise One's would have opposed the training of Aiel men, and their opposing it would have raised issues. But, since that never happened its not really an issue.

 

Post cleansing--yes, if approached correctly i could see the Aiel agreeing to the training of men who could channel for the purpose of fighting in the war. But, I don't see the Wise Ones permitting that occurring under the Black Tower. They have a very great sense of duty to their own people, and that would include the men who can channel.

 

Ultimately, i dont see it happening at all--if Rand were going to do that, then he would have done so by now. Even were he to do so I think the Wise Ones would put themselves in charge. Asha'men teachers, but the men not of the Tower, and given what Taim did I think that would be effective.

 

But, again, I don't see the Aiel men being trained by the Black Tower within the scope of the story. The Wise Ones will eventually look to see to their training, and that may involve the Black Tower, but in the long run i think they'll be trying to keep it in house.

 

Neither do I. I do, however, see the prospect of taking the battle to the DO and thwarting his plans to be a real spur.

 

Perhaps, but the Aiel are not battle crazed--as Lan states they will refuse battle if the odds are against them.

 

The question is, would the Wise Ones and clan chiefs consider the harm to the Aiel greater than the gain of the light in the men channeling?

 

Yep, no doubt, the WOs themselves probably would, and rightly so in my opinion, take over the training of the potential male Wise Ones.

 

They'd probably end up with the same kind of affiliation to the Tower as Egwene is trying to form. But we'll see. I'd agree, they'd predominantly be an Aiel-lead group.

 

Frankly i see the Aiel as being more capable of including men than the Aes Sedai. The Aes Sedai's prejudice means that at best we'll see a hobbled alliance, Aes Sedai bonded to Asha'men.

 

Amongst the Aiel I genuinely think they could cohesively mesh, that the Wise Ones would be mature enough to reorganise themselves to include male counter-parts.

 

Quote

Well, I'd point out that Taim, one man, managed to create and train near a thousand in less than a year...

 

Yep. Given a base, given the required infrastructure, given the huge numbers of men he was having delivered. Setting up schools in random areas, I don't know.

 

Plus, Taim is Taim. Not every Ashaman is going to be as driven as him (once he hatched his cunning plan). He's a special case.

 

I don't think I agree here. Taim had no base--the farm has been made less then a month prior to his arrival. He had no infrastructure, just a random group of wannabes.

 

The Aiel have very elaborate infrastructure. If the Wise One's took to it they could proceed with testing via sept, clan and onwards. Taim had to lure people in with the talk of serving the Dragon, and even then had to be careful with his talk of wielding lightnings. The Aiel are much more pragmatic.

 

Taim is a special case--what he achieved amongst the Wetlanders is remarkable. Give one or two teachers to the Wise Ones, however, and they could achieve the same and more. After all, they could do so openly. Aiel men have no problems with channeling, just the realistic perception of the taint. Absent that, and if the Wise Ones told them that....

 

So, in order to train twice the number of men they'd, presumably, at least as much land, time, and effort to get 2,000 up and going. Given that they don't want to strip the BT, and given that Ashamen are also used in combat, etc., etc.

 

Thats a lot of time and effort. Centralization is the only sensible course.

 

The same problems apply to centralization. Whether the Asha'men were training them amongst the Aiel, or at the Black Tower, there are only so many that one person can teach. Wherever that teaching is taking place, with the numbers we are talking about that would still drain Black Tower resources.

 

Let me put it this way--say one teacher can train thirty at a time. Does it matter whether he is training them at the Black Tower or amongst the Aiel? He can hardly also be training non-Aiel if he's at his limits.

 

With 2,000 Aiel channelers in play, the number wipe out the problems of centralisation. The Aiel are already organised, there is no need to gather them at the Black Tower in order to train them, one can as easily train them where they are.

 

was under the impression that the general Aiel population (i.e. non-channelers) was huge. Given that, there's still a large number of men to check through to find the 2,000.

 

And therein lies the key. Large amounts of chaff, little wheat. They might not get many, but they wouldn't know until they started.

 

Actually their population is probably quite small... climate, stated numbers of algai'di'siswai and clan movements of the shaido, as well as the the number of channelers which represent a rough percentage of the populace (albeit an uncertain one given we don't know how many die in Rhuidean) I'd say the Aiel population numbered somewhere around 1.5 million.

 

But their organisation within clan and sept provides a very functional way of testing the populace. All Nine Valleys Taardad to be tested first, and so on....

 

Ok, just reread it for the 3rd time. So you mean "include them in the WOs" as a... a purpose in their life? And not about training? If so, yes you may be right. But they can't be included as WOs before a male trains them in using saidin. That's what I was getting at. And yes, I might have misunderstood your post. If I'm still not getting please elaborate (I might be dumb... )

 

Actually I was referring to the simple fact that I stated directly that the Wise One's might seek aid from the Black Tower for the purpose of training. That the Wise One's number no male channelers does not mean that they would not look to aid and train male channelers amongst the Aiel following the cleansing of the taint, nor that they would not have the methods of doing so.

[Tyrell]

I never understood why it is commonly asserted that the Kin contain no darkfriends. Isn't it the Galina PoV where she thinks about how she was a darkfriend before coming to the White Tower and seeking out the Black Ajah and so fourth?

 

Well what would have happened if little miss darkfriend novice/accepted got kicked out? Would the Kin not draw her in as per usual?

[Luckers]

I never understood why it is commonly asserted that the Kin contain no darkfriends. Isn't it the Galina PoV where she thinks about how she was a darkfriend before coming to the White Tower and seeking out the Black Ajah and so fourth?

 

Well what would have happened if little miss darkfriend novice/accepted got kicked out? Would the Kin not draw her in as per usual?

 

It was Liandrin, but the basis for the no-Kin-darkfriend is simple--the Forsaken became aware of a cache of angreal and ter'angreal in Ebou Dar, and put major presure on the local darkfriends to find it. Amongst that we know that many specifically looked to the Kin in an attempt to find those ter'angreal. Had there been darkfriends amongst the Kin that information would have surfaced.

 

Might there be one or two random darkfriends amongst there numbers? Perhaps. Are they presentin any great numbers, absolutely not.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Lets all go cross eyed now, lol.

::)  :)

 

Yes, they desire to save the Aiel culture, but I do not believe they would to it at the expense of who that are--like, say the Aes Sedai seeking alliance with the Black Tower out of fear of the Cleansing (the percieved Forsaken weapon).

Yep. I don't think they'd ever be "run" by non-Aiel. Merely become associated with them.

 

Plus, and this might be amusing. They did once serve the Aes Sedai, maybe .... and I'm not taking this too seriously here... they might end up as partners. The Wheel turns and all that.

Post cleansing--yes, if approached correctly i could see the Aiel agreeing to the training of men who could channel for the purpose of fighting in the war. But, I don't see the Wise Ones permitting that occurring under the Black Tower. They have a very great sense of duty to their own people, and that would include the men who can channel.

Wait, I don't think that the Aiel would be rolled into the BT forever ... I'm merely suggesting that they be inducted and trained ... not that they wouldn't eventually go back.

 

However, I don't see that fighting under the BT would be a total no-no. I think that, given Avi's issues about the dreamworld (I can never bloody spell it!) - the whole, the untrained can be dangerous ... and their general pragmatism ... There's scope.

But, again, I don't see the Aiel men being trained by the Black Tower within the scope of the story. The Wise Ones will eventually look to see to their training, and that may involve the Black Tower, but in the long run i think they'll be trying to keep it in house.

Neither do I. This is merely a minor diversion from the Taim is Demandred / Moiraine is Cadsuane's dad / Will Bela and Mandarb Get It On-type threads.

Perhaps, but the Aiel are not battle crazed--as Lan states they will refuse battle if the odds are against them.

But then, they don't have a choice.

The question is, would the Wise Ones and clan chiefs consider the harm to the Aiel greater than the gain of the light in the men channeling?

True.

 

Not sure how the global good would weigh against that. However, I'd be surprised if they didn't sign up.

Frankly i see the Aiel as being more capable of including men than the Aes Sedai.

 

Amongst the Aiel I genuinely think they could cohesively mesh, that the Wise Ones would be mature enough to reorganise themselves to include male counter-parts.

Oh, without a doubt.

 

However, the childbirth stories they're always telling might mean it'd take a while for it to all settle down.  ;D

The Aiel have very elaborate infrastructure. If the Wise One's took to it they could proceed with testing via sept, clan and onwards.

How so...? The Waste is just that ... a waste.  :-\

 

Anywho's I'm done.

 

I guess you're right on the general organization side of the training process.

[Kaznen]

I don't buy the Aiel Dreadlord theory.

 

1.  Ishy has never been on call 24/7 (or 10 in randland).  He get a 40 year or so pass every 1000 years or so.  He wouldn't have been able to see all the Aiel enter the blight.

 

2.  If there has been a large number of Dreadlords around over the years they would have made their presents felt.  Ishy wasn't around to reign them in all the time and a tower of even 100 men in the blight would have made themselves known.

[Mik]

I don't buy the Aiel Dreadlord theory.

Good! I'm not even sure if I'd swallow it, but heck... I posted it. I might as well defend it.

 

1.  Ishy has never been on call 24/7 (or 10 in randland).  He get a 40 year or so pass every 1000 years or so.  He wouldn't have been able to see all the Aiel enter the blight.

First off, if you had carefully considered what I wrote, you would have read that Ishy would only have to teach the first few DrAieLords (hey.. I just made up a new word), maybe even just the first. Teach one the basics and say "carry on with the good work, young man. You are in charge now".

 

Second, the 40 years cycle is just that; a theory. He could have been totally free. Or he could have been 'free near Shayol Ghul'. Or... you catch my drift right? For all we knew, he could have been sitting on a black/red chair in a black/red room in a black/red tower called the Blight Tower in the shadow of Shayol Ghul for all we know. We weren't informed. That's all.

 

2.  If there has been a large number of Dreadlords around over the years they would have made their presents felt.  Ishy wasn't around to reign them in all the time and a tower of even 100 men in the blight would have made themselves known.

Uhhh.. and why would they have 'made their presence felt' exactly?

Shai'tan points, the DrAieLords punch.

Shai'tan says jump, they jump.

If Shai'tan orders them to 'Learn, gather up new recruits & hide untill your Lord and Master calls for you on the Day of Return', they'll do just that. Period.

 

Besides, they are Aiel. Twisted and made into a mirror image of themselves... but Aiel still.

When in -say- the last three-thousand years did we see Aiel cross the Dragonwall?

ONCE! And not to 'make their presence felt', but to avenge one of the biggest crimes one can commit according to Aiel tradition.

Aiel obey.

 

Heck... this theory might even work.  :D

[Tyrell]

I never understood why it is commonly asserted that the Kin contain no darkfriends. Isn't it the Galina PoV where she thinks about how she was a darkfriend before coming to the White Tower and seeking out the Black Ajah and so fourth?

 

Well what would have happened if little miss darkfriend novice/accepted got kicked out? Would the Kin not draw her in as per usual?

 

It was Liandrin, but the basis for the no-Kin-darkfriend is simple--the Forsaken became aware of a cache of angreal and ter'angreal in Ebou Dar, and put major presure on the local darkfriends to find it. Amongst that we know that many specifically looked to the Kin in an attempt to find those ter'angreal. Had there been darkfriends amongst the Kin that information would have surfaced.

 

Might there be one or two random darkfriends amongst there numbers? Perhaps. Are they presentin any great numbers, absolutely not.

 

Fair enough.

[Luckers]

Thin Innkeeper, I think we're pretty much arguing the same story, lol. Great minds and all that, eh?

 

Will Bela and Mandarb Get It On-type threads.

 

They already did--their child is Gaidal Cain.

 

1.  Ishy has never been on call 24/7 (or 10 in randland).  He get a 40 year or so pass every 1000 years or so.  He wouldn't have been able to see all the Aiel enter the blight.

 

Mik is right on this--we know that Ishamael managed to gather and train channelers up to equalling the Tower during the Trolloc Wars (near six thousand). Clearly in the range of his free cycles he couldn't have trained that many, so what he did was train a few who in turn trained others.

 

Once he had trained a few they in turn could take over training those that came in.

 

2.  If there has been a large number of Dreadlords around over the years they would have made their presents felt.  Ishy wasn't around to reign them in all the time and a tower of even 100 men in the blight would have made themselves known.

 

Would they? No one gets much beyond the Mountains of Dhoom, and there is a whole lot of land up there that is unaccounted for. If they lived far to the north in the Blasted Lands why would they have been noticed?

 

Another suggestion is that they live in the Land of the Madmen--the whole deal about men and women wandering around insane and channeling sounds a bit like a smokescreen. Between the two i'd say the Blasted Lands, but who knows.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

I don't buy the Aiel Dreadlord theory.

I'm not sure anyone does.

 

But ... given the disparity of channeler numbers ... the DO better have something up his sleeve for TG.

 

Otherwise it'll be pretty anticlimatic...

 

"An army of eleventy-million trollocs, led by 100,000 Mydrall emerge from the Blight... the ground trembling beneath their feet.

 

Then up pop the Lights thousands of channelers who kill the lot in 10 minutes, and return home in time for tea, medals, and biscuits."

 

The "trick" needs to have something to do with negating the power disparity. Hence the popularity of the Aiel-channeler / DF channeler argument.

 

If not from the Aiel, where are they coming from?

[Hybrid]

How about out pops thousands of channelers, only to be hit from within their own ranks by Darkfriends.  Chaos ensues, and the entire advance channeling army of the Light is overrun a la Matrix Revolutions.