Thanks. That is interesting and I appreciate the reply.

On another note, it's been cool to be back here after 10+ years, but with all the negativity I think it's time I left the forums again. I was excited about the show, and I enjoyed discussion up until today. The majority of posts are either negative opinions on the show or breaking down what people do like about it, and I'm not really interested in faithless discussions (not saying that's all it's been, but that's been my day today and yesterday). I really thought this episode was the best yet, so I was surprised everyone hates it. I guess the Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills.

I'll continue to watch S1 and 2 with my husband and see his reactions until we see what happens with the show's fate.

Have a good time everyone, and thanks for having me back for a short time ?

24 minutes ago, mogi68 said:

 

LOTR was generally a good adaptation, if greatly flawed in parts. Some book purists were upset at changes, of course, but the film trilogy had widespread appeal to non book readers. It was accessible, entertaining, and maintained the soul of the story. I know that personally I had several qualms with changes that Peter Jackson made in the last two films, but still enjoyed them greatly and am glad they were made. IMO they were as good as could be expected.

Thank you for the kind and honest answer! This sheds some light on what I've heard and makes a bit more sense. If I'm understanding correctly then, this relates to the WoT because WoT is a) being torn apart by book purists and b) not meeting the high quality standards of non-readers. So it will probably get cancelled after S2 ?

Is this an accurate summation? I admit, I'm really bummed because I love getting to share this universe with my husband, who will never read the books. But I am trying to honestly see where the show is heading.

On a possibly humorous note, we have seen several instances of drinking tea or making tea, and we have seen two bath scenes. Seems pretty WoT so far ? Just needs a bit more skirt smoothing, braid pulling, and sniffing. Someone give Egwene the common cold, quick!

1 hour ago, Gothic Flame said:

Dude...lotr 

I am realizing more and more that I don't understand if the LotR movies were a great adaption of the books or a terrible one. Note, I haven't read the books, so here's what I'm working off of from here and Reddit:

- When the LotR movies came out, everyone said they were nothing like the books

- The LotR movies changed or removed character and major plot lines

- Somehow, the LotR movies became popular anyway?

- LotR is so popular it is getting a show on Amazon that I'm guessing must be faithful to the books or no one would want to watch it, if I'm understanding the comments.

My question is... Why is Amazon banking on LotR if people are complaining about the WoT adaption the same as people complained about the LotR movies?

I'm not trying to be clever here, I am confused. I thought LotR was an extremely popular movie franchise, but now I'm hearing people hated it because it wasn't like the books. So now I'm wondering what this might mean for the WoT.

(Thanks if someone takes the time to clarify)

1 hour ago, dorotea said:

 

This is an extraordinary urban American take, and I say extraordinary because being Russian implant in US for a very long time I can spot these kind of things and appreciate your PoV while at the same time laugh my head off.  Lets just say that I listened to a few Eastern European reviews of the show (Russian, Polish, Check youtubers) and all of them are very sarcastic of the shows take on the diversity, saying as much as 'this is how a San-Fransisco-an would imagine a rural settlement in the middle of nowhere mountains'. See, in real life, as in real life out there outside the developed world's urban areas there are generally no diversity the way you imagine it. Zero, zilch, nil diversity is a norm for rural areas because these folks have no financial means to travel or to mix until they go full scale immigration, but that's another story.

With all due respect, I study culture and world history and am very aware of how diveristy looks depending on context. This is not just a "San Fransisco" view. This is akin to saying ancient China was comprised of just "Chinese" instead of hundreds of ethnic groups who very much consider themselves both physically and culturally diverse.

Take a look at the Wheel of Time world and the descriptions of their cultures. Each place might have more of one ethnicity than another, but I would be shocked if we only saw Tearans in Tear, etc. The only diverse part of the show that has felt off to me is Two Rivers, and that's because it was explicitly said they are a small town whose people are descended from Manetheren, and few people travel there. But Tar Valon? The White Tower? Yes, I'm going to expect to see many different kinds of folks.

Edit:

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Again, Manetheren (And AoL before it) were diverse ethnically.  2000 years is 60-100 generations.  That is not enough time to forcibly breed out recessive traits.

After reading this quote, I realize I was mistakenly thinking Manetheren was described as a monolithe in the books. So, I can see how Two Rivers could be diverse, and I still stick to what I said about Randland as a whole.

3 minutes ago, henfen said:

 

To be clear, it isn't for no reason.  I don't like my community being used as a superficial trope, again, for the purpose of throwing in some sex or "scandal" into an asexual book.  It's like banging two trash can lids together - trying to engage the viewer by throwing it in their face.  Make it worthwhile.  It very much feels like so far, gay, lesbian, and bisexual characters - my community, who I feel protective of - are being used to score shock value points.  It comes off as tokenism.  Subtlety is an art that so far seems to be lacking.  Don't misinterpret this as homophobia. 

So far everything in the show has felt extremely natural to me, more so than any other show I can think of, so I mean this genuinely when I say I'm surprised you feel that way. May I ask, do you also feel the show does a poor job with its depiction of many races and body types?

This is obviously just my opinion, but I feel that the world is so clearly how I envisioned WoT in terms of 'diversity' (in quotes because I feel diversity should just be the norm, as in real life) that it is what's fueling my admiration for the show so far besides my interest in the books. I can think of nothing else that includes many cultures, races, sexualities, and body types in a way that feels genuine. So to me that has been amazing.

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  I hate the movie 'Elf' but anyone else I talk to at least likes it and thinks I'm crazy.

You know, you and I may not see eye-to-eye on the WoT show, but boy do I dislike the movie 'Elf', too. Hahaha. Never understood why it was so popular ?

Back to WoT, I do wish there were more episodes per season. I am not a fan of how rushed and short everything is in 2021 between TikTok, click bait articles, and people complaining on Reddit when a post is longer than five sentences. I'd be stoked if we got more than 8 episodes in future seasons.

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Trollocs and fades must have channelers with them to use the ways, now? Horses couldn't survive? Good grief.

I didn't mind the channeling change as I'm curious to see where they take it, but I admit the situation with the horses was weird. That is, I can think of a couple reasons they may have switched the Ways to use channeling, but I can't think of a single in-world reason to not take the horses. I am guessing the horses might have been too challenging to CGI around? Not sure on that one.

7 minutes ago, Indil said:

From what I can remember, GOT Season 1 is much closer to to the book than WoT show does. 

For S1 to Book 1, I think you're right. I am thinking of S2, maybe S3? I don't remember precisely, but I know Sansa's character is dramatically changed in terms of place/time/plot (imo) and some other characters are changed or die/don't die. Sorry, it's been a while since I've read the books or seen the show, so I'm having a tough time with the details.

33 minutes ago, Agitel said:

 

I've been a big apologist of the show, but I really think this is unfair. Book purists whined about LotR. Book purists whined about GOT. But not all things are equal. As an apologist for this show I can still admit they are taking quite a broad license with the adaptation, much more than either LotR or GOT, imho. I can certainly imagine something closer that's still far from a page-for-page transcription.

I can respect that, and I didn't intend to be unfair. I can't speak for LotR, as I haven't read it (I know, I just couldn't get into it ? ), but to me GOT feels almost more different between its book and show adaption than the WoT so far. I'm not saying the WoT show is the best thing since sliced bread, since it does certainly have differences from the books, but I guess all of the comments about things like Loial's height or the color of the weaves makes me wonder what people really need out of the show to make it positive in their eyes.

Edit to clarify: I understand there are many reasons people don't like the show, and I respect that. I am mainly feeling a bit overwhelmed by the number of comments about the little things. There are things I wish the show did closer to the books, or things that sometimes feel off, and I don't deny that takes away from the show's potential. But I guess in the long run I'm just happy we got a rendition of one of my favorite book series.

Keep up the good discussion ?

This episode felt the most book-like so far, and I loved everything. My husband, who is not a book-reader, also says its one of his favorite episodes. He was excited about the dagger, the ter'angreal (portal), and wants to know what's going on with Perrin.

Sadly, at this point I can only imagine the folks who hate the show (not just dislike it) would accept nothing less than a page-for-page transcription from book to screen.

1 hour ago, fra85uk said:

 

Yes but as viewer I do not know about it.

As a viewer, I see that basically the world has been  frozen for one month. 

At least, do a minimal effort and let the guys say something about the dangers they passed in the last month.

 

Not to forget that basically they ended ep4 with Nyn going full Dragonball and with big hints at her being the DR and then they did not show any of the aftermath of this. It is frankly absurd.

I had several non-readers friends that were perplexed because they were sure Nyn was the DR after Ep4.

I'm loving the series and haven't agreed with most criticisms so far, but I will say this is something I noticed too and I wish they would have had the time skip referenced in dialogue instead of on-screen.

A simple line from Rand: "I can't believe we made it to Tar Valon, Mat. Just think, one month of running for our lives and we can finally have a warm bed and a full belly." Mat: "Seems like a fair trade to me."

And throw in something about Nynaeve being sick or fatigued. I'd also like to see Rand sick. I'm hoping there's a flashback to justify this.

2 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

 

That chapter confused me so much when I first read it. Read it again recently. Might actually be more confused.

Remind me which chapter this is? I'd like to go back and read it.

15 hours ago, Maximillion said:

I did not describe nor attempt to open up a discussion on the definition of stoicism. Sorry you are insulted.

 

 Lan is stoic in the books and anything but in the TV series.

I described him as a blubbering wreck in the TV series because that is what I have seen on screen. There are no assumptions required.

 

 

 

 

In reflection, I was hasty to reply to you initially, and I apologize for my implied tone. However, by saying "Lan is stoic in the books and anything but in the TV series." you are making a statement about the definition of what a stoic is. I am sorry you feel that his character has been ruined, though. I guess I can't think of any times he cries (blubbers) in the show except maybe at the funeral, and I don't even remember if he cries at the funeral (but I'm guessing he does because you have mentioned it several times and I trust that.)

8 hours ago, Maximillion said:

 

I think if they just portrayed Lan's character as in the books it would have been great.  Nothing wrong with that at all and very much adaptable to the screen.

Lan is a guarded and stoic individual. He does not give much away.  He is ready to act when required and doesn't give in to emotional responses.  This does not make him one dimensional at all.  In fact, by TGH, he is already started to show that he cares for others besides Moiraine,  Teaching Rand swordsmanship but also gently advising him and guiding him on his meeting with the AS.  You get to know him and if he likes and respects you, you work your way into his inner circle.  MANY people are like this today.  It's quite a common trait and the pay off showing character interactions that break down his stoicism and unlock his respect and friendship could have been great.

Instead, we get Rafe Judkins cookie cutter - and deluded - view of what a man should be.

Turning Lan into a blubbering emotional wreck and largely incompetent is THE worst thing about the entire adaptation in my view - even worse than #badass Nynaeve,

As someone who was raised by a real-life Stoic not unlike "book Lan", it's insulting this is what you think stoicism is. Stoicism is a way of finding balance within, acceptance of the give and take of life, and living a virtuous life. It is not being stone-faced and emotionless 24/7, especially not in situations like a funeral in which you are chosen to channel others' grief. When my rl mentor let down his walls and cried, those were some of his most powerful moments.

I understand your argument that show Lan is not book Lan, but at least be honest and use reasoning instead of making assumptions. For example, you could be arguing he is unlikely to have been chosen to be the one channeling grief instead of arguing he is a "blubbering emotional wreck".

(Side-note, I asked my husband to pick one word to describe Lan during this episode, and he said "stoic and reserved". He hasn't read the books.)

5 minutes ago, thievingsackofpotatoes said:

Way off-topic (and I don’t expect a reply) but this came up in another thread. What are y’all watching? There’s some great television out there right now

 

If I was more ambitious I’d start a thread to see what everyone’s watching!

If you're willing to try a K-Drama, The King's Affection is surprisingly good. I also recommend Kingdom.

47 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

The more hyperbole that is used like "destroying Loial" or "10 year old grandson could have written better" and so on, the harder it is to take such posts seriously.  Loial was almost exactly like in the books, and many people have found the changes and scripts extremely well written and composed, especially the ones that are further away from the books. It kind of defangs any point your arguments might have made.

When Loial came on screen, I nearly screamed -- he looks and acts exactly how I pictured him.

Also, for those saying these writers didn't pass a 6th grade writing class, I think you vastly underestimate what happens in script writing. These shows are trying to appeal to as many people as possible, whether we (high-fantasy readers) like that. Most of my friends won't read WoT because it is "too complicated". They barely followed the politics in show GoT and mainly understood the explicit stuff (the sex and murder). With all due respect, most watchers don't care that the show writing is the way it is -- these are some of the same people who flocked to theatres to watch Maleficent and 50 Shades of Grey, which they are entitled to enjoy. It's the same reason 99% of movies (hyperbole here) have the same basic plot. Book readers are a small group comparitively.

All I'm saying is that this show isn't written just for "us". It's written for "everybody". I don't see that as a bad thing, because why not expose more people to the awesome world of WoT?

Furthermore, I am personally enjoying the writing and I am notoriously picky, as my husband will remind me. Hehe.

(Clarifying, WhiteVeil my post isn't targetting you, just building off of some of your comments! ?

3 hours ago, elteryon said:

Enjoyed the Way of the Leaf demonstration that we see here. Thought it portrayed the power and vulnerability of the philosophy as starkly as I pictured while reading the books.

One thing I found odd was the comment that "A child's hand can block out the Light, but the Leaf will go back to the earth and be reborn" (paraphrasing). It seems like they're implying the Traveling People don't like the Light? I understand that in this context the WhiteCloaks were abusing their power, but it felt a little stereotypically "religion is bad".

Quote

• Logain seeing Rand and roaring with laughter was powerful -- though would he have been able to sense that Rand could channel, having already been gentled?

I may have to rewatch, but I thought Mat was looking at Logain, then Logain started laughing while grabbing at the front of the cage and leaning up against it-- but when it cuts back to Logain notice he is dejectedly slumped against the back of the cage again as though nothing happened.

I thought maybe this was implying Mat was seeing things, but also hinting that Logain could feel Rand if he hadn't been gentled.

1 minute ago, Tim said:

FIRST, and maybe I am alone on this, but I did not conclude that Thom is convinced Mat can channel. I think it's just as likely that he was worried that one or other of them might be able to channel and actually suspects it's Rand. It's possible that he even knows one of them might be the dragon (it's implied he overheard a lot of what Dana said to them). He spends a lot of time talking about how Owyn lied to him and didn't tell him he could channel. If he thought Rand might be able to channel, a good way to have a conversation with him about it would be through misdirection - "we need to protect Mat from the Aes Sedai" becomes an acceptable way of saying "if you can channel then we need to protect you from the Aes Sedai" without forcing the issue. 

I think the audience is meant to conclude that Thom thinks Mat can channel (less likely that Mat can channel - I think the hinting that his issues are something else are too clear to ignore even for a non-bookreader). But this possibly sets up a great scene later on where Rand meets Thom again and is like "It's not Mat who channel, it's me." And Thom is like, "I know, lad, I know."

 

This is a unique perspective about the Thom and Rand conversation that I haven't seen yet. I think it has merit! Also I completely agree with, "The deviations from the book now feel natural rather than jarring, which is the spirit in which I take the "different turning of the wheel" line from Sanderson."

I'm stoked to see more episodes ?

4 hours ago, AusLeviathan said:

Sure but they just ruined Rand's big moment by taking the exact situation of him listening to the insane voice in his head and coming to that conclusion and turned it into a punchline.

 

Why? What possible reason could they have for doing that? Oh that's right because Rand won't have that moment in this series because he's not the DR.

My thought is that they're demonstrating that normal people like Moiraine, who has never experienced the agony or madness of a male channeler personally, can't understand the weight of what Logain is saying. She does smirk at him -- she thinks he's mad. In the books, we also aren't sure if Rand is hearing a real Lews Therin or an imagined one; indeed the other characters all think Rand is mad. We as readers don't even know until we get the scene on Dragonmount where Rand determines it doesn't matter. It's what Rand does with it that matters.

I didn't see it as them "spoiling" Rand's moment at all. I saw it as an emphasis on the theme that is prevalent throughout the books. What made the Dragonmount scene so powerful to me was precisely the dilemma Rand had to put himself through, to see him go through agony as everyone he trusted thought he was mad. As someone who has experienced possible mental health issues in the past that still haven't been fully explained, do you know how utterly terrifying it is to not know what is real and what is not real? It's very rare to read a scene in a book that plays with that concept in such an honest way -- that you can be both mad and, in a sense, take something profound away from that experience.

49 minutes ago, mogi68 said:

During Rand's outburst in episode 2, she said "That one is going to be trouble, isn't he?". It was hard to keep a straight face 

This made me smile ? It is so cool to hear about non-book fans enjoying the show and little quips like this really highlight that.

11 hours ago, sierramekate said:

 

I am watching each episode at least twice because I watch once in English and once in another language. I was paying more attention, and what *slightly* distinguishes Bella (the one Egwene rides) from the other three Two River horses, which are all dark brown or black as far as I can tell... is that Bella is not all dark... She has a bit of white fur growing above her hind hooves. Alas, who knows if & when we'll see her after Shadar Logoth.

Oh no. I thought Bella was the white horse that got away from Shadar Logoth along with Mandarb and the other dark horse. But if that wasn't Bella, I'm now realizing I have no idea which horse IS Bella ;__;

22 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

That's my main point. Your original post threw me. A major theme of the series so far is to cornfuse the identity of DR. I like that, except the clumsy way they did it in this scene. Several people in this thread have been asserting that the Owyn story included the same sickness that Matt was evidencing, then you agreed with me that it did not, and yet you overall defended the scene. I thought to myself, ?. Rating the scene on a scale of 1-10 we probably disagree by 5. ? Thanks for joining me on the Forsaken theory.

Ahh, I see. I tend to lean to the positive side of things, but I also try to make logical arguments. It's a curse in some ways and I see why you were confused hahaha.

Can't wait for Episode 5!

I can't say enough how much I love all the CLOTHING and TEXTILES!

The coats. The shirts. The scarves. The blankets.

I never thought I'd watch a show based on a book and go "wow, that is exactly what I pictured in the books!" because clothing is a bit tough on that, but here I am. It's amazing. All of it.