On 9/2/2023 at 8:44 AM, Agitel said:

I just had a thought to put it in perspective about how Rafe needs to tell this story in a shorter run time than would be required for a high fidelity adaptation of the books.

 

Adapting WoT in 6-8 seasons is like adapting ASoIaF in 3-4 seasons. Imagine the amount of interpretation and adaptation that would be required to have made that work.

No, it isn’t. Not once you take a meat cleaver to the series beyond Book 6, which is what should be done. But Books 1-6 were damned near magnificent and this is a sick joke by comparison.

The GOT Seasons 1-4 adaptions of the first four books were pretty darned good, and a masterpiece by comparison.

On 9/4/2023 at 9:20 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Me!

 

You mean “in addition to the story in the books,” right? The books still exist. 

Well, good thing you’re the moderator then. You can turn the lights out. 

While I appreciate the folks trying to stay positive about this - maybe some of you even mean it - at some point we gotta call this for what it is.

This is worse than Season 1. Most of these plot points aren’t even recognizable from the TGH or TDR. The writers are just making it all up.
 

We’re supposed to just be thrilled that there is a TV show called “The Wheel of Time” with the same character names but a totally different story?! Oh, but it’s ok because heh - this is a “new turning of the wheel”?

Who are the people who think this is a good adaptation of the books?

Who are the people who are happy to get this “new turning” instead of the story from the books?

I think my favorite additions so far are Perrin’s visions and Nyn’s super badass warder skillz. Rand’s working the third shift at Cairhien General Hospital LOL. 

And Moraine. Gah. Does anyone even think Mo will be making her exit in this story? Nah. They’re riding the Rosamund Pike train to the end.

I could go on and on but you all know what I mean. It’s just that some of you won’t admit it. 

On 9/1/2023 at 1:57 PM, SinisterDeath said:

Yes. Stories have themes and tones, and they are generally keeping those same themes and tones in the show.

LOL. Love this. 

On 9/1/2023 at 9:09 AM, DojoToad said:

Personally, I lean more toward that Rafe is making unneeded changes.  Haven't watched S2 yet, but from S1 I liked some changes: Mat's family having Coplin/Congar type problems, Logain being introduced early, Moiraine using the inn to crush trollocs...

 

Others I can't get on board with: Ninja Nynaeve, untrained (or minimally trained) channelers pulling off the miraculous, Perrin's wife, Borderlanders being suspicious of Aes Sedai, etc...

These are very, very, very small changes compared to the massive changes Rafe and His Merry Band are making. I could mention a few, ahem, bigger ones.

On 9/1/2023 at 2:34 PM, Agitel said:

I haven't seen any of S2 yet, might start in a moment. But I'm going to harp on there being only 64 episodes (optimistically) to tell the whole story, which means conveying the same motifs and general arc outlines of the sprawling book story (in which a significant amount is told through character's internal thoughts) in a relatively very short run time. And this means recapitulating all of the feels, lore, and development into different scenes which make the same point even if entirely original, and sometimes points that were spread out across different books and scenes all need to be made within the same TV scene.

 

The writing decisions ultimately fall on Rafe, but there is a hard truth that this adaptation has to be planned as shorter than it would need to be to have very high fidelity to the books. That's just the reality of the situation, and a constraint Rafe needs to work within.

 

I'd love a more shot for shot version, but this is what we get at this time.

 

And just because what I wrote in my first paragraph is true, it doesn't of course mean the execution will be good. The actual execution is a whole different kettle of fish.

This excuse rings a bit hollow considering the Rafester keeps squandering all his precious runtime just, you know, making everything up.

Each one of these seasons is the equivalent of 3-4 feature length movies. And they can’t faithfully adapt 1-2 books a season in that run? Think about that. (And no, nobody is seriously suggesting a faithful adaption of books 7-10 which would be, frankly, horrific.)

On 9/1/2023 at 4:37 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Can we please not do the tired: "this is a bastardization of everything RJ stood for, he would be rolling in his grave!" "No! This show is the most faithful adaptation of anything ever!" "No, it's not because [my politics]" "Yes it is, because [MY politics]." thing anymore?

 

It is so. bleeding. tiresome.

 

Talk about the specific things you did and didn't like and why without resorting to all of the over-the-top language and chest-beating. We can have nuanced discussions. Really, we can. Just take a breath, stop catastrophizing everything, and try to talk about specifics.

 

Respectfully, these sort of straw man responses are also a bit tiresome. Hopefully my critiques have been specific enough. 

4 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

For me, it is not a failure of the show to include extra material in the form of 2-3 minute long exposition dumps that better explain the intricacies of the world building that might not appeal to the average viewer.

One of the primary narrative purposes of Moraine is to serve as a walking exposition dump. Just like Gandalf.

The bifurcation of the One Power, tainting of Saidin, and visibility of weaves could have easily been explained by Moraine in about 60-90 seconds early in the show while she tests Egwene.

12 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

The animated shorts are cannon to the show, you may disagree but they are. They're also arguably the best part of the show.

 

Covid, is actually a really good explanation for how it impacted the number of people that could appear on screen. The alternative would to have been to wait until 2023 to release season 1.

And the "You don't like the LGBTQ+" is only a factor, when someone starts going on about how the show is being ruined by "the gay agenda". 

No offense, truly, but you sound like you’re making devil’s advocate arguments at this point. This is weak sauce. 
 

1. It does not matter whether an animated short is “cannon” or not. Only weird ubernerds care about “cannon.”  If you have to point to an animated clip to explain a core concept that you completely butchered in eight hours of showtime, that’s crap storytelling. Period.

2. There were plenty of scenes featuring scads of actors. There is absolutely no factual basis for the argument that Covid is why Rand and Mo set off alone into the Blight. Or for any of the other truly terrible plot decisions throughout the series. To my recollection, Covid protocols have only officially been offered as an excuse for one crappy scene with the Shienarans defending the wall.

3. I don’t think it’s reasonable to criticize people for noticing the clear LGBTQ+ agenda that is deliberately peppered throughout the show. This is classic face-tattoo syndrome. “Why are you looking at my face tattoo? Because you have a face tattoo.” (I.e. being mad at people for noticing something you wanted people to notice.)

On 4/16/2023 at 9:04 AM, SinisterDeath said:

This talking point keeps coming up and it's simply not true. The tv show didn't merge the one power into a single power, they just didn't explain the intricacies of the one power in the first season of the live action show.

 

The two halves of the one power are briefly talked about in the animated shorts that come with the TV series on Amazon. They are cannon to the tv show.

“It’s explained in the animated short” and “unreliable narrator” (an Aes Sedai, btw) are two of my all time favorite excuses for this show butchering the core source material. Right up there with “because Covid” and “they only had 8 episodes.” And let’s add “you just don’t like LBGTQ+” to the list. 

16 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

What makes you think it won't happen?

Well, two reasons...

First, given that I think Rafe’s Season 1 depiction of EOTW was significantly, massively, stupendously worse than the book, that doesn’t give me a lot of hope he is actually going to improve on the books later on. 

Second, given that I think Rafe’s Season 1 depiction of EOTW was significantly, massively, stupendously worse than the book, that doesn’t give me a lot of hope there is going to be a “later” beyond Seasons 3 or 4.

3 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Dark Tower was so bad.

Yeah. So sick of screenwriters thinking they have to make massive changes to the source material because "that just won't work on screen" or "that won't appeal to a broad audience." And then the movie bombs.

Harry Potter, LOTR, GOT... these worked because they stayed pretty close. Yes there were some cuts and changes, but mostly for the better.

Rafe and WOT, man for a guy who loved the books... well I'm just repeating myself now.

I’ll add a different take to @Lightfriendsocialmistress and @DojoToad…

I derive pleasure from sharing awesomeness with others. I enjoy watching a movie I like, or taking a favorite hike in the mountains, by myself, but I enjoy it so much more if I can share that experience with someone else who has never seen it.

When I heard that WOT was finally in production, I was thrilled that a broader audience would finally get to experience the same awesomeness I did (well - at least through book 6 before things sort of derailed). It made me so mad and disappointed when I started to realize around Epi 2 that this was not my WOT, and for a great many people this Rafe-WOT is the only WOT they would ever know.

I felt the same way walking out of the theater after Dark Tower. I was so pissed. Sure, I have the books. I know the real story, but I wanted that story to be shared.

One other thing that excited me about WOTTV is I thought it might actually be an opportunity to improve on the books by tightening up the story and fixing a lot of flaws from Book 7 onward. That’s never going to happen now, which is disappointing. 

The folks who liked Season 1 or are optimistic about the direction of the show can basically be broken down into two camps: they either (1) simply enjoyed this new interpretation, or (2) they are optimistic that the show will grow more faithful to the books.

To the folks in group 1, I’m disappointed for me, but happy for you.

To the folks in group 2, your optimism is almost certainly misplaced.

I keep hearing how Rafe is such a big fan of the books. Look, I’m sure he is. But he has a VERY different take on the material than many people. You only have to look back at his childhood. Please consider this interview:

Quote

He referenced the books’ female cast, and their individuality in a world that’s so much different than themselves and how it helped him and his mother relate to being unorthodox individuals—he as a gay person in Utah and his mother as a Mormon woman. 

https://www.keengamer.com/articles/news/the-wheel-of-time-showrunner-rafe-judkins-comic-con-interview-and-a-new-series-poster-and-release-window/
 

Rafe not only felt ostracized from his community growing up, but he had a very close relationship with his mother, as many gay sons do. This is not a stereotype - it has been written about and studied extensively. I won’t bother citing the articles, just do a simple google search. 
 

As a result, whereas many readers (including me) read Rand’s hero’s journey as *the central story* of WOT - Rafe does not. Rafe’s telling is going to lean heavily into the matriarchal aspects of WOT. The Aes Sedai, the female rulers, and the Super Girls are going to receive equal if not greater emphasis to Rand. And Rafe is going to focus a lot more on “non-conforming” sexuality and other social issues. 
 

This is how you get a steamy scene between Moraine and Siuan that was, at most, only barely hinted at in a prequel to the series. 
 

This is how you get Nyn killing a trolloc with her bare hands in Episode 2, and sneaking up to put a knife to Lan’s throat.

This is how you get a group of Super Girls defending Tarwin’s Gap while Rand is largely sidelined. Inexcusable. 
 

And worst of all, this is how you cast aside the books’ core dichotomy of saidar/saidin as it relates to resurrection of the dragon. That was THE core premise of the series: that a MAN was prophesied to be resurrected as the Dragon and channel tainted Saidin, and the Aes Sedai’s inherent conflict in hunting male channelers while knowing full well they needed the Dragon Reborn.

None of this had anything to do with Covid. This is Rafe’s “new turning of the wheel.” I suspect this was also the pitch to Amazon - a fantasy series for women and Gen Z, etc.

And by the way, I know that Rafe’s version is going to resonate with a lot of folks who share some of Rafe’s lived experiences. There is a reason why WOT resonates with many in the LGBTQ+ or whatever you want to call it community. I’m not judging that at all. 
 

But we need to see this for what it is.

This doesn’t even get into the issues of poor writing/dialogue, and poor/artificial/young-adult-looking production value. I realize that’s all in the eye of the beholder, but I don’t expect any of that to improve, either. 

7 hours ago, DojoToad said:

In other words - I hate what Rafe did with the show.  I also don't buy the excuses of COVID - six episodes were complete before production was shut down.

Yeah, nobody on this board has ever proffered a convincing argument as to why (1) Covid, or (2) Barney leaving, or (3) only getting 8 hours to tell maybe 2/3rds of one book caused any of The Big Changes that Rafe & Amazon made to the story. I actually don't think anybody has even really tried to make that argument.

The argument, and correct me if I'm being unfair, seems to be that the show would have been better, despite or regardless of The Big Changes, had it not been for (1) (2) or (3). But that seems kind of unknowable.

19 hours ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Well...Think of all the fantasy books ever written, think of all the fantasy books turned into TV/Film and then think of all the successful ones or even ones that are any good.

 

There are not that many that spring to mind for me...GoT, LotR, original Conan..

You can add Potter to the mix. I'm sure there are others. But I'm not sure that it matters. Even if there are relatively few relatively faithful fantasy adaptations, that isn't necessarily because it is hard. I do think you hear a lot of writers whining about how hard it is - after their artistic take on the material bombs.

11 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

It's easy to say just film the books. Surprisingly few have actually done it in any shape or form.

I don't think anyone is saying that. Somewhere in between (1) "here's the book, let's start filming page 1" and (2) "we don't really need Saidar/Saidin, why not make it so the Dragon can be a boy or a girl, and let's make all the women holy amazeballs and make all the men dundering idiots" there is a middle way of "let's make an adaptation that is true to the characters, the story, and the lore." Rafe & Amazon didn't do that. You know it, I know it, we all know it. Some are fine with the story R&A decided to tell, and that's ok, but to argue that it wasn't possible or workable to make a more faithful adaptation just kinda feels like gaslighting.

8 hours ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Fantasy TV/movie book adaptations are extremely difficult to do(I would say it's the hardest genre to translate to screen), it is EXTREMELY rare that they follow the book much more than a low % and even rarer that they are particularly successful, usually due to people not sticking to the source material enough and putting their own perspective on things...Changing the recipe is fraught with risk.

People keep saying this. I don’t know why they keep saying this. EOTW was an easy adaptation. They just blew it. 

I don’t know the first thing about any aspect of producing a TV show or any sort of visual art, but count me among those who think they could have at least outlined a vastly better Season 1.

And for those who might scoff that an outline is easy, sure. It is easy, and they blew it. They blew the easy part - following the source material.

5 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

It's inarguable that GoT was closer to a 1:1 adaptation than WoT. I'm merely pushing back against the idea that GoT was this ultra faithful 1:1 perfect adaptation.

If I were to rank the 3 adaptations mentioned + the Witcher on faithfulness to the source material based on what's released right now.

LoTR 60:100 (Adaptation:Source)

GoT 20:100

WoT 15:100 (This includes the animated shorts)

Witcher 12:100

I don't think anybody said GOTTV was an ultra faithful 1:1 perfect adaptation. Many said it was a more faithful adaptation than WOTTV. Glad you agree.

The only further nit I would pick is your assessment that GOTTV was 20:100 whereas WOTTV was "15:100 (This includes the animated shorts)". In order to "score" the two shows that closely, you must be putting a LOT of emphasis on those animated shorts that virtually nobody watched and that aren't, you know, part of the show.

For example, I always found it amusing when people justified Season 1 completely ignoring (yes, yes, and now you're going to point to a subtitle) Saidar/Saidin because "it's in the bonus content." LOL. It's not like this magic system undergirds the entire series. Sticking it in the bonus content was fine....

10 hours ago, DojoToad said:

WoT review

 

Thought this article was well thought out.

I share this article's two primary criticisms: the show "looks" fake and it strayed too far from the source material. The only difference I have with this writer is that he/she takes a more charitable view that Rafe & Crew simply made a mistake in relegating Rand to a side character in order to play up The Mystery. I see deliberate decisions to play up the female characters at the expense of the men. There were simply too many instances to not see a clear pattern emerging.

On 4/25/2022 at 8:00 PM, SinisterDeath said:

Nope.

Tons of actors with wrong color hair, eyes, accents.
Skipped entire plot arcs, changed dialogue, motivations. It was similar, but in no way was it one of the most "faithful" adaptations ever made.

Come on now…. Hair and eye color? I watched the first few season of GOT before I picked up the books. After the reading the books I realized that the screen adaptations were remarkably faithful. You can split hairs (or hair colors) as much as you want, but I don’t think you can seriously contend that the WOTTV adaptation is even in the same universe as early GOTTV vis a vis faithfulness to the books. 
 

Have any of the WOTTV fans picked up EOTW since Season 1 ended? I have. It’s depressing, and angering how far they missed the mark. 

On 4/16/2022 at 10:24 AM, Zimri Lim said:

One was a labour of love, a creative endeavour that lost its way because the author couldn't be arsed to finish the story, the other is simply content, it is a product, it is an IP hijacked for the purpose of promoting a political agenda. In this case the author's work is simply an inconvenience to expelling their warm, insipid diarrhoea written by talentless hacks.

 

The motivations of the two productions are entirely different and it shines through every single frame and every tortuous second you endure this absolute abomination of a show. Even at its very worst with the S8 debacle, it is still better than WOT.

 

WOT is another classic example of modern entertainment, we do not care what you want, we do not care whether you like our show or not, we are telling our own (terrible) "stories" and you will shut the hell up and consume. You will consume the Bobba Fett disaster as we make him a background carachter in his own show, ditto Geralt of Rivia in The Witcher, ditto Master Chief in Halo - and ad infinitum other TV shows and movies.

 

You are wrong, we are right, you, the audience is the problem now shut your goddamn mouths and give us money.

 

Dayyum…. Bringing the HEAT! But I think there’s a lot of truth here. 

On 3/1/2022 at 5:37 AM, wastingtime said:

I said it in a different strand on here at some point, but I don't reckon WOT can ever match GOT in terms of twists, turns, unexpected main character deaths, moral shades of gray, good people doing dumb things, terrible people occasionally doing noble things etc that was really what made GOT so much more than just a niche fantasy and elevated it into must see viewing enjoyed by the wider public as a whole.

This is extremely well put, and precisely why GOT (well the first five seasons) was excellent TV. 

On 3/1/2022 at 5:37 AM, wastingtime said:

That doesn't mean [WOT] can't still improve to be top level TV - if the writers actually manage to give us characters well written enough to care about and form some kind of emotional attachment to - just that even best possible WOT will still be quite a different 'flavour' to best Possible GOT.

Sorry, but I think you’re giving Amazon, Rafe, and the writers too much credit. What did you see in Season 1 that actually gives to optimism about where this is headed?

Let me put it this way: The Eye of the World was a layup. And they didn’t just miss the layup - they somehow got their foot snared in the net, pantsed themselves, and the ball ricocheted into the other goal. 
 

They Dark Tower’d this thing. They took a great story basically made for screen adaptation and decided they could tell a way better story instead of just telling The Story.

On 2/28/2022 at 6:29 PM, William Seahill said:

Thank you.  And thank goodness Randland isn’t at all like the Seven Kingdoms. 

Yeah… ok I guess. GOT’s “bleakness” never bothered me (well the whole killing babies sure did), because the story of the first 5 seasons was damned near perfect. But I can understand why people would want a series that’s not that grimdark. By the same token, though, WOTTV kinda went a bit too far in the opposite direction. The looks and writing are more toward the YA end of the spectrum. 

On 4/25/2022 at 9:18 AM, Jaccsen said:

The writers are more interested in telling their "modern" take than doing justice to the story or characters.

Yup. IMHO, WOT was at its best when focused on Rand, but the story Amazon and Rafe want to tell us is going to focus much more on the female characters, shift more of the key events to those characters, and lean into the “modern” stuff. I kinda suspect this was actually Rafe’s pitch to Amazon. Some of the readership are enjoying that. Some are not. I personally find it very disappointing. 
 

This isn’t anything close to the Jackson’s LOTR adaptation. Or even Witcher. This is a story “inspired by” RJ’s WOT. 

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

 

That does kind of make it sound like the show not matching your personal interpretation of the series is what makes it bad to you.  Which is a take, I guess?

Yup, it’s my take. And if WOTTV aligns more closely with what you enjoyed about WOT, then that’s good for you.

33 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

I don't blame the actors, they did the best with what they were given to work with.

Agreed. I liked nearly all of the casting decisions, and I think the actors are doing the best with what they’ve got. I’m sure that goes for the vast majority of folks involved in the production. This seems like a top-down problem from Amazon/Rafe and some of the folks who are lighting/staging/shooting the scenes.

The latter can be fixed. There’s no changing the former, and look, I have to concede that this new story/framing appeals to a portion of the audience. Just not me. 

7 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Very well written. Thank you for your thoughts.
 

I’d seen enough after 4 episodes to realize S1 couldn’t be salvaged. Still hoping S2 can be better, but doubt it if Rafe and writers remain the same - as far as I know, they have. 

I think Rafe’s answer in this Comic Con interview last year speaks volumes about the story he wants to tell…. 
 

Quote

Q: Take us back to your origin story with this project. What your personal connection to Robert Jordan’s epic story and why was this particular project one that wanted or felt you needed to be involved in?

 

A: The WOT was actually something I read when I was younger with my mom. It was this book series that sort of connected us to each other especially after I came out of the closet. It was this thing that led us to each see what it’s like to be a person who’s different in the world. You know, her as a woman in a Mormon family, um, and me as this little gay kid in Utah - like we could connect over this book and the women who were inside of it who had to be themselves in this world that was very different.

That’s all well and good. The book certainly has many strong female characters, and I can understand why these characters and themes of social isolation would resonate with Rafe and other WOT readers. And if you look at WOT through that lens then Season 1 starts to make a lot more sense!

BUT, if this is the story Rafe wants to tell, or the lens through which Rafe wants to tell the story, that’s not the WOT that resonated with me. My WOT centered on Rand’s hero’s journey and the complex mythology of the magic system and Ages.

So I just don’t think WOTTV is going to get better - for me - because this showrunner didn’t take away the same story from WOT that I did. Not even close.

11 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

One thing they could be doing (I hope so) is start with a clean look because the world is not touched strongly by the Dark One. As the series goes on it becomes more and more gritty, grimy, dark etc. and that can be played with as Rand affects the world and goes downhill/uphill mentally.

Maybe. They can try to dirty things up, but something tells me it’s still going to look very fake and staged and young adult unless they change out a lot of folks behind the lens. It’s tough because I cannot explain why it looks staged or how to fix it - but I can just see it.