2 hours ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

I am with you.  This is an example of trying to save money by not having to build a road system in the ways.  My grumpy based on this will be nothing compared to my grump if they decide to scrap the green man because the VFX is too expensive.  

Get used to disappointment. (sorry, I watched Princess Bride again recently and tend to slip in quotes from it for days afterwards.)

1 minute ago, Ralph said:

 

Not exactly, because he does give us an extra layer of understanding in the Rhuidean visions

 

But I do think they are likely to miss him out, unfortunately

I was really hoping to see the Someshta, if only because that gave Loial one of his best moments int he entire series.   But I have come to accept he will almost certainly not make the cut.   

1 hour ago, Ralph said:

 

That's wonderful.

 

But is the main point the pacing and insufficient explanation for things or the story? A lot of what you have said is stuff that is in the show, just not explained well, which is a big issue. But not the story itself

 

And some of what you have said is from later in the books

I think pacing goes back to her saying "they keep going from plot point to plot point without explaining why these things are significant and why we are supposed to care about them (the characters)."  And I totally agree that if Rafe wanted 10 episodes and only got 8 it makes it infinitely harder to hit those plot points AND explain their significance.   

And yes, I told her things from further on in the books to help explain some of the things I told her from EotW.   Because, as I said, I really tend to go off on tangents when I get excited about talking about something.  ?

19 minutes ago, Dead Warder said:

Good points for sure. Side note and just my opinion of course but I still believe Dune is unfilmable, all three on screen adaptations + the never done Jodorowsky (who I despise with all my being) version didn't come close to the novels - it's too complex of a universe to be properly adapted for core book fans. However, I prefered David Lynch/ Dino De Laurentiis version becase it was so wildly different and I like David Lynch's work.

 

I digress. 

I haven't gotten to see the new Dune yet unfortunately.  I would like to though.    I also kinda like the Lynch version (not so much the first time, but after seeing it again many years later). 

6 hours ago, Daenelia said:

@Yojimbo Your wife is the opposite of what I had with my guy: I am not allowed to explain the plot at all. He is watching the show and he is loving it, has no trouble with understanding it without my input. I can't even say stuff about casting! The story comes across well and I enjoy his own speculations which are somehow right on target, sometimes.

 

He is having a great time determining who the Dragon could be. It's a joy to watch the show with him and I am grateful for that ?

 

The plot discussions will follow after this season... without me trying to spoil the next one! ?

I am very happy that this is your experience.  I really am.   I know people who are DC comics fans and I feel terrible for them because so much of that universe on film has been awful.   I am lucky in that, with all the changes they've made, the Marvel movies still remind me why I loved those characters as a kid.   

9 hours ago, Ralph said:

 

What did you say exactly? 

 

I'd be very interested to hear 

Exactly?   There is too much.  I sum up.  (also, when I talk for very long I tend to ramble, and go off on tangents, and have to sometimes be prodded to get to the frelling point.  Keep this in mind while you read this).

I started by explaining to her that there was no mystery at all to who the dragon was (I knew Rand was going to be the protagonist the moment he showed up), because the DR was almost never mentioned.   The mystery was why the DO had any interest in the EF's at all.  

I explained that they spent large parts of the book doubting Moiraine was either telling them the truth or had their best interests at heart.  That they eventually came to agree that there had to be something to it, since they all had things happen to them (like the dreams and getting chased by darkfriends and Trollocs and Fades, and Mat speaking in a dead tongue out of nowhere) that gave her explanation more weight, which eventually led them to accept that it was their duty to the world to go to the Eye.  Even Nynaeve, who spends most of the book distrusting Moraine and trying to get them all away from her.  This is what she specifically thought was more compelling.    The mystery of who the dragon is seems very contrived to her, as she figured out it would be Rand very quickly (she's way smarter than me, and has read every Sherlock Holmes story a dozen times).

I told her that the EF's were all (except Nyn) basically kids, with almost no understanding of the wider world, but as we got to know them we saw that there was hidden depths to them.  How Egwene, though the youngest by two or three years was probably the bravest of them all.    Even Mat, who might complain about it, but almost always comes through for the people he loves.   I explained how and why Rand's sword was so important to him, and why that sword kept getting him in trouble.   I told her more about Shader Logoth and what mashadar was and what it was doing to Mat.   I told her about Min, and her viewings.    I told her about Elyas Machera and what he meant to Perrin, and how the Whitecloaks came to hate Perrin, and what they actually were in that world.  I told her about Thom, and how he became almost a father figure to Rand.   I told her how Loial was considered to be too young at 90 years old to be out of the sledding, but had an enormous breadth of knowledge that was absolutely necessary to them, and how even he could see the boys were all T'averen even though he did not have that talent (further emphasizing the point Moraine had made).   I explained to her a bit about what each Ajah was, and why the blues and the reds were so at odds.   I also explained a little about how Saidin and Sairdar worked, and that it really isn't that men foul the One Power, but that the one power was fouled by the Dark One, and why that means the DR could never be a woman.   Its a really large distinction that the show has not explained well at all, to the point I have to wonder if they will ever make it clear.   I find the whole "well, they are going off of bad information" to be a bit too overused. It's being used too much as a crutch IMO. 

There was more, but I don't need to rehash the entire first book here as we all know it.   Her major complaints about the show has always been about pacing and lack of character development.   She would have liked more explanation about the world itself, and more time getting to know and care about the main characters.  She finds that too many times the story jumps from story point to story point to the detriment of character development.   

41 minutes ago, Dead Warder said:

This is the third attempt that I know of and all three never honored the books... Flight from Shadow being the closest of the bunch. Some things are never meant to be recreated.

You could be right, but there was a time when I remember people saying Dune was unfilmable, or LOTR was unfilmable, or any number of things were unfilmable.   All it takes is the right writer, director, and cast to make it come alive.   But if this show goes on for 3 or 4 years then it might be the last attempt at it in my lifetime.   If so, then it is what it is.  The wheel weaves as the wheel wills.   

10 hours ago, Jaysen Gore said:

 

And for the record, the Entertainment Industrial complex is well aware of that behaviourial pattern, which is why they are justified most of the time in not caring what we think, in the grand scheme of things; we're not even big enough to be a rounding error.

 

You are almost certainly right.  And that makes me sad, because it tells me that they don't give a rat's ass if they make a faithful (not word for word) adaptation, so long as they bring in numbers.   Even Rafe, who supposedly is a big fan of the books, must not give a rat's ass, because...we didn't get a faithful adaptation.   I guess that's fine, really, and I should just give up hope of ever seeing a faithful adaptation on screen.   

14 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

Anyone who lives in a culture where public bathing is a thing.

So then anyone from a culture where public bathing (with both men and women in the same tub)  isn't a thing is simply "misinterpreting" this scene?   

9 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

 

This comment represents a misinterpretation of what we have both been shown and repeatedly told by the producers and actors.

Only most viewers don't go looking for that information.  They watch the show and form opinions based on what they saw.  My wife, for instance, said "so they're lovers" when Lan got in the tub with Moraine.  What other interpretation was she supposed to make from that?  How many people take baths with their platonic friends?   

40 minutes ago, Agitel said:

 

No, because the other oaths on the rod are binding in themselves regardless of whether they have the oath to speak no word that is not true.

I may have misinterpreted your first post.   You were arguing that when giving an oath without the oath rod they could "mean it in the moment" but then change their minds?    I guess that could happen.  It still sounds a bit sketchy to me, but I'm not going to argue against it being possible.  

4 minutes ago, Agitel said:

The first oath doesn't mean an Aes Sedai will keep her oath. It just requires that the Aes Sedai truly mean the oath at the time she makes it. She can't intend at that time to be duplicitous. But she can later have a change of heart and renege.

Un, but wouldn't that then mean the other oaths could be broken just as easily.  "See, I didn't intend to ever make a weapon when I made the oath.  But then I had a change of heart."

48 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

To be honest, this frustrates me as a defence of the show. This was a huge opportunity to improve on a weak part of the books, to develop a better understanding of the Eye and reasons for going there. And as things stand, they have whiffed on it.

 

Obviously we can reassess at the end of the season having seen the full story from the show. But I just find it a bit disappointing at the moment, I really feel the show has a great chance to improve on things like this 

See,  I never found the way they ended up going to the Eye to be rushed or "coming out of nowhere". There were numerous mentions of the Eye. And, they were basically trapped in Caemelyn. They knew there were many Tollocs outside the city.   They decided to take the risk of using the Ways to escape.  Moraine, because she was a very wise woman who had been studying the prophecies and preparing for the last battle for 20 years, made an executive decision to try and steal a march on the shadow by going there.  Because of the events leading up to that point the others went with her because by that time they had bought in to some degree at last that they were important, and they were willing to risk their lives to possibly save everything they knew and loved.  

In some ways I find it analogous to the decision by LTT to take his hundred companions to try and re-seal the bore.  And she was right to do so in my opinion. 

1 hour ago, fra85uk said:

Because the book was not about the mistery of "who the Dragon is" but "why the Dark One want these Kids?"

IIRC the idea that one of them could be the Dragon was barely mentioned in the book.  If at all.   

This afternoon I spent 5 minutes laying out the plot of the book to my wife, as she has never read the books.   Her reaction was "why the heck didn't they just tell that story then? That sounds way more compelling than what they put on screen. "   I could not answer her.   

3 minutes ago, Ralph said:

1) he and Josha have both clearly said Rand is the Dragon

2) "hopefully" is not an assumption. And therefore not disrespect

Then 1) he is screwing with the fandom by stating the DR could be female.  Very nice.  And 2) all we have to say to not be admonished is to say I think HOPEFULLY that Jordan would think Rafe is a hack writer who has no understanding of what made these books so great and we're cool, right?  Great.

18 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

What happened in the novels with regards to the reincarnation of the Dragon is irrelevant with regards to the TV series because, as I noted, the show has eliminated the idea of souls being gender-locked.

 

In both an AMA that he did on Reddit and in an interview with io9, Rafe specifically talks about the show's approach to reincarnation, not just of regular souls, but of the Dragon's soul:

 

"we’ll continue to do things like that I think are more reflective of what hopefully Robert Jordan would be writing if he was writing today."

 

A couple of things.  First, the fact that he has gone and said this publicly tells me that, as remote a possibility as it is, he could throw a curveball and have a female DR (or the dreaded multi headed DR).   Anyone saying there is no possibility of this must then conclude that Rafe was just screwing with the fandom.  Not a good look either way.

Second, I have seen numerous people severely admonished on this forum for giving their opinions on how Jordan might feel about the show and they have no right to say what they think Jordan would think or say about the show (and I agree, we can never know how he would feel).  And yet here Rafe is, saying that this is what HE thinks Jordan would want.   If fans are wrong and arrogant to make such assumptions, then Rafe is equally wrong and arrogant.   And by starting with that arrogant assumption he has in fact disrespected the source material.  

7 hours ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Oh, and for the record, if the Green Man is complete CGI, there won't be an actor credit to show up in  IMDB, assuming they're not just sitting on it., or the actor is uncredited. To, you know, avoid IMDB driven spoilers.

 

I think the next two episodes will be critical for me for the rest of the series. Because so many characters, plotlines, and epic moments hinge around the conflict at the Eye. The Seals (Logain's arc), The Horn and the Banner (Elayne, Mat, even Faile's) , The Forsaken (5,8,13? Just people, or demigods?) , The Dragon Reborn. Even the epic-ness of the conflict at the Eye itself as a way to show the audience just how much is at stake, and how outmatched our heroes are.

 

IMO, the decisions they've made so far have been reordering the cards in the deck, but fundamentally all 52 are still there. Depending on the next 2 hours, though, we could lose some really important cards of the deck, increasing the likelihood of losing many more.

 

OR NOT...we may still get the exact climax of the Eye of the World, and everyone but Mat right where they should be at the end of the first novel.  And if they deliver the end of the novel, we were be much more able to say "Trust them"

 

 

I hope Someshta is there, but even if he is completely CGI there would normally be a credit for the voice actor, unless Someshta simply never speaks.   But you are also potentially right that they didn't put that in for now to avoid spoilers for the book fans.   I've also seen that done when there is going to be some stunt casting in shows that producers want to be a surprise.  I guess we will see. 

My fear with the way they are doing the Eye is that I have heard a potential spoiler that would completely change at least one major plot point going forward.   I really hope what I heard is wrong.   

7 minutes ago, chri5 said:

YW.

 

You said you wanted them to say this was "not Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time".  They explicitly state that it is based on Robert Jordan's WOT which is telling you to expect changes to it.

Again,  never said I was not expecting changes, which you accused me of saying.

I did expect changes.  I didn't expect so many of them would be god-awful changes. 

18 minutes ago, chri5 said:

It is so weird.  There are these words on the screen I am looking at in episode 6 at 8:01 into it that say, "Based on 'The Wheel of Time ' series by Robert Jordan".

 

I read those to mean that I should expect it to be based on "The Wheel of Time" by Robert Jordan, and not be a word for word re-enactment.

 

But I haven't taken an English class for many years, so maybe words are hard for me.

Where did I ever say I expected a word for word re-enactment.  Thanks for putting words into my mouth and telling me what I think.

I'm getting awfully tired of people saying we expect a word for word recreation. Or that we're just nitpickers.   

8 minutes ago, WheelofJuke said:

Yeah, but Hydramount.com doesn't have the same panache.

Hmmm, didn't Rafe write several episodes of SHIELD?   Maybe he just has Hydra on the brain.

7 minutes ago, chri5 said:

But this is literally how the Wheel works in the books.  Each turning is slightly different.  Taveren exist to correct the parts of the weave that threaten to bring it off course, but they don't make it exactly the same.  There is drift, this is the Age Lace.

 

I'm sorry you don't like the way RJ1 built the world to change over time, but he did it not me.

Then they should just go ahead and state that this is not Jordan's WoT, but Rafe's WoT, because Jordan wrote a specific story, and if this is "Another Turning" it is not his story.

And that is totally ok, if you are happy with that.   But for some of us, this "new turning" feels too much like fan fiction at times, where someone who has read the books has said "well, I could write that better".   

6 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

Nothing has been officially confirmed beyond that Mat has been recast for season two.

 

Then saying unequivocally that it is not the show runner's fault is as wrong as saying it unequivocally is his fault.  Just saying.

15 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Check my post in the predictions thread to see how I propose 2 different ways to get Mat back where he needs to be.

 

Also, @Gothic Flame, this change WAS NOT the show runner's fault,. so blaming Rafe is not cool

Has that been confirmed explicitly, that Mat didn't go into the ways only because Barney quit the show?   Or did he maybe quit the show because he disagreed with the direction they were goin to take his character?   

2 minutes ago, mogi68 said:

I think she knows it's Rand

I always got the feeling that Moraine thought it was Rand almost from the very beginning in the book.   One of my major gripes is how they have diminished her.  She seems so less decisive and in control in the show.    

6 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

IMDb has Barney listed on episodes 7&8 but that could be false. Who knows, I certainly don't.

it is quite common for people to have their name associated with a show as "credit only".   His name will undoubtedly come up in the last two episodes.   It's kind of a shame, because despite my dislike of some of the choices they made with regards to his backstory, I thought Barney was the strongest of the EF5 as an actor.   If his replacement is not as good that will hurt the show.   

See, I don't hate everything about the show!  I genuinely wish it was better, or would get better.