I wonder if a lot of the disagreement over the Nynaeve mass heal scene could be just down to channeling being a bit different in the TV show compared to the books. We're all discussing the scene based around in-book rules (some very complex and nuanced).

In the show, talents may not be a thing (for example, we've already seen Egwene heal neardeath). Perhaps show characters don't have particular talents in different areas - they're just more or less effective at all channeling based on their relative strength. Would certainly simplify a very complicated magic system.

For me, too different is when the characters are no longer recognisable as the characters from the books, or their major arcs of character growth disappear. 

I have no issue with adding/removing/editing plotlines, dialogue etc. (in fact I've actually enjoyed a lot of the episodes where new plot material has been introduced, like the extra material for Logain).

I feel like my 'line' has already been crossed for Lan and Nynaeve (the former is unrecognisable to me as the same character as Lan from the books, and the latter seems like she's already the Nynaeve from the end of the books so all her growth from the story is gone). Mat is looking like be may cross into the unrecognisable category, too. I'm still onboard as some of the characters do feel like the book characters (e.g. Moiraine, Liandrin, Logain), even if some have been short-changed in terms of action (e.g. Rand, Perrin, Egwene).

11 hours ago, EmreY said:

So now we are criticising decisions that we dislike but which were anyway not taken.

I wouldn't say so. I'd say the comment with regards to sex scenes is being discussed with regards to a) whether the approach to sex scenes is good/bad/important/etc., and b) what it reveals about the showrunner's and writer's goals/beliefs/agenda with regards to gender portrayal in the show.

11 minutes ago, ilovezam said:

It feels a little bit iffy that consensual sex between lovers were used to highlight the women being in control, as though preferences for domination/being dominated in bed is supposed to reflect anything about your personal or societal ideals.

 

Glad they took that out of the episode, it would have been pure cringe.

Yeah, I have to say reading that segment of the leaked script made me uncomfortable. Why no an emphasis on both partners' pleasure?

6 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

I didn't find the music/sound thread so..

 

These are the officially released translations so far

 

These are beautiful. They seem to have captured the characters and relationships more closely from the books than the show does (e.g. 'Mashiara' - not much evidence of Lan and Nynaeve having any walls to tear down in the show).

55 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Especially when they set up the idea in episode 5 that should would mask the bond if one of them got into sexy times.

 

I personally like the idea that Moiraine told Lan that she liked Nynaeve hoping they would hook up so she could intentionally mask the bond.

Ezcept she couldn't have known she would need to mask at that point as she had no idea Rand would come to her.

I think if Egeanin makes the cut she will be useful in humanising the Seanchan, I think.

On 1/3/2022 at 2:19 PM, MummyDust said:

I honestly don't understand all the negative backlash toward the series. Yes, it is insanely off course with the books. No, it does not nearly come close to capturing the slightest bit of the depth of the world RJ created. That being said, it is entertaining... if you're able to remind yourself that not even a Hollywood series, let alone small screen show, could ever truly do this series proper justice. What Peter Jackson did for LOTR was phenomenal, yet still pales in comparison to the books ... and that was only a trilogy. With WOT, we're talking about 14 books, not including the New Spring prequel. 

 

My only real complaint about the series is the last episode of season one. No fight between Rand and Balzamon... just a quiet conversation? Extremely anticlimactic and poorly at that. And Moiraine being stilled just blows my mind because even with how far a series will stray from the books, and how can it not when the depth and scope of this series to me is unrivaled by any other, Moraine and her character arc is necessary no matter which direction the showrunnners want to take it. If they have Nynaeve healing stilling/gentling by season 2, I don't know how they can think to extend the series for years, as they hope to. 

 

Anyway, my point was a TV show could never do a series this deeply defined and woven any real justice, so you just have to not compare it to the books, and just try to be entertained by the screenplay. 

I think LotR succeeded (or largely succeeded) is because Peter Jackson was very adroit at recognising what the core or heart of the books was and leaving this untouched. Rafe Judkins seems less adept at this. For example I would suggest the extensive world with clearly defined cultures and nations is one of the characteristics that is at the heart of WoT and makes it stand out from other series.

1 hour ago, ForsakenPotato said:

But doesn't Rand at the end of EotW also do something awesome that no one has done in recent memory, additionally with no training? (teleport, defeat a foresaken, defeat an army of trollocs). I feel like we just accept it because he's the dragon reborn and the main character, so we expect him to do something impressive. When Nyneave and Egwene along with 3 other women accomplish one small part of what he does in the book we decide it's unreasonable?

Well yes, because there is an in-world rationale for it - he is the Dragon Reborn and ta'veren and the women aren't.

1 hour ago, KakitaOCU said:

 

You're arguing Lan should magically defy the laws of physics and reality.  If he's not on the wrong side then the trollocs on said "wrong" side stab Moraine.  You cannot be in two places at once.  You're literally complaining that something completely reasonable in a fight against multiple opponents happened and further that Lan couldn't break reality to still avoid it.

 

 

He tried to, rushing forward to try and get to the front.  Again, you're complaint seems to be Lan is not Superhuman.  Bankai Ichigo from Bleach would block all the shrapnel.  A normal human, no matter how good, would not.  
 

 

He's not part of the army, he's not in charge of scouting, the scouts in question are other Warders whom he trusts.  Now your complaint is he's not parranoid and dismissive of people with similar training and backgrounds to him.  Lovely.

 

 

Who says he doesn't?  But your argument now is that it's unreasonable that someone he trusts implicitly who is trained to a very similar level as him could potentially slip something in a drink.  Your complaint is not realistic.

 

It's not like Moraine is completely safe in the fortress.  It's not like Moraine has and frequently uses a power that makes him unaware of her presence and so he factually could not know about it until morning when he went to check on her.  

On the last point, I thought Lan or Moiraine made a comment to the effect that it was extremely rare for Moiraine to mask the bond? Isn't that why Lan came to her room just before she visited Siuan (because he'd noticed the bond being masked and wanted to check Moiraine was ok as it was so unusual)?  If I'm recalling correctly, you could expect Lan to be surprised by the bond being masked and to to do as he did when it happened in Tar Valon - go and check on Moiraine.

1 hour ago, Mirefox said:

Yes, this would have been much better and more time-efficient.  And as a plus, we likely wouldn’t have gotten the funeral scene which was, in my opinion, the worst scene in the entire season.

I completely agree but I'm not sure if the impact of the bond breaking is actually intended to be the same in the TV show as it is in the books.

Absolutely no non-readers I've spoken to have recognised that the bond is a magical link (they think either it's an agreement or Warders are special employees of the Aes Sedai) or that Steppin's death was caused by the bond breaking (they think he was depressed by the loss of Kerene and/or his failure). 

So that leaves me to conclude that either a) the writers have failed really spectacularly here (especially if the justification for including so much time on Steppin is in set up for the plot points centred on the bond breaking with Moiraine and Lan, and Rand and Alannah), or b) the bond doesn't work the same way in the show.

I've sat on the last episode for a while now and had time to reflect on the season as a whole. I think as a book fan I'd give it 4/10 and as a non-reader 6/10.

Bits of the show have been done really well, and I feel the show has demonstrated it can deliver competently on original content from the books (e.g. Shadar Logoth, Tar Valon), and new material (e.g. the new plotting and scenes linked to Logain). Unfortunately for me, this delivery is very inconsistent, and I find myself having more moments of frustration and irritation each episode than I do joy or wonder.

I think as a book reader who read the series again and again over my formative years I have really strong attachments to some of the characters and I'm not going to get beyond being upset that the Lan, Nynaeve, Mat, etc. from the books are not going to make an appearance in the show.

There are three other things that prevent me from having an overall positive reaction to the series, and one of these is poor dialogue (modernisms like 'upbeat' and 'blow smoke up our asses' make me cringe so hard I've not crawled out from behind the sofa until the next scene has started).

The second is I don't like WoT being used to carry an agenda. In my opinion (as a woman), there is a feminist agenda being pushed by the show and it comes up too frequently in scenes for me to be able to just sit back and enjoy the story without feeling I am being told that the original world of WoT was not ok. 

Thirdly, I don't have confidence yet that the show can pull off the kind of drastic changes required while still being faithful to the spirit of the books. For example I have read that the Steppin episode is set up for later events in the show. However, this doesn't ring true to me. If it's set up for Lan and Moiraine's bond breaking then the events of episode 8 don't make much sense as Lan can't even tell whether the bond is masked or broken or whatever. And if it's set up for Alannah and Rand, then it also doesn't make sense to me as the episode doesn't convey that warders go into a death rage when their Aes Sedai dies, but instead suggests that Steppin is severely depressed by losing someone close to him/failing in his duty (which would have zero application or impact on Rand at SG). This makes me feel there is some self-indulgence or ego on the part of the writers pushing into the show to a degree I'm not comfortable with.

22 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

 

But why you feel this is based on?  If you only read EotW with no knowledge going forward you'd get a similar view of Men=Stupid and arrogant and failures while Women have to pick up the pieces.

 

 

Except I don't think you do, or at least I didn't.  Even in the EotW I think it is very clear the gender divide is being played upon in a slightly tongue in cheek manner.  I don't think the reader is meant to take away that the men are stupid and arrogant while the women pick up the pieces, only that that's what a lot of women in the world think.  The POVs of Rand and Perrin help you to develop an appreciation for the male characters and how they don't meet the stereotypes that female characters have of them.  Unfortunately (imo) the TV hasn't found a way to handle this as effectively.

19 hours ago, Owayn The Traveller said:

In her defence (not that she needs me defending her or would want that - thanks Rand ?), she does have one of the best scenes in the series. 
 

The smirk when she thought Amyrlin was referring to her as the strongest channeler in centuries and how her face fell when it was Nynaeve  

that the Anyrlin was referring to. ?

I so agree on this! It was that little action that gave me a bit of faith that the series really knew what it was doing with these characters (after the final few episodes I'm now more inclined to give the actress the credit for that).

I'm not blown away by her acting, but I don't think it's awful either. I don't like book Egwene at all but I'm mostly ok with TV Egwene so far. I think it's because the actress has combined the 'hardness' of Egwene's actions and personality (her drive, self-confidence, and ambition) with a softness or slight wistfulness in her expressions which adds a likeable extra dimension to me. It gives me more sense of her idealism and good intentions.

1 hour ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Did it though, at any one time the cast was not massive, as characters died others where introduced, but also those characters could be guaranteed an appearance every season, meaning a regular pay check. I am trying to think and there are no characters who drop out for entire seasons. 

WOT you are unlikely to get that same consistency if you are outside of the main cast. So as a jobbing actor you will drop the casual gig for a proper regular thing very quickly, meaning it makes more sense to keep the cast tight. Also COVID, that is a serious consideration that needs to be considered. 

I get your points but I feel like the number of characters main enough to be in the TV series (and thus for this to effect) and affected by season-long absences is very low (I can't think of any beyond Moiraine..?).  The rest of the bunch could be pretty much included in every season with the ensemble approach (e.g. splicing bits of the later series books together so that we don't have whole seasons dominated by EgwenE, Perrin, whoever).

1 hour ago, Mirefox said:

This is a monumental issue, too.  If they want to change up some stories and call it a different turning of the Wheel, ok, let’s have that conversation.  But different turnings don’t break the fundamental rules by which the world works.  Rules/consistency/etc. are the basic framework they needed to work within but they want to change even that.

I completely agree and I'm not trying to justify it.  I'm just pointing out that if the one power in the TV series isn't bound by most of the rules surrounding it from the books its futile arguing about specific 'misuses' of the one power in the show, or trying to work out what a scene is trying to show in book terms when actually those rules no longer apply here.

For example, a lot of us are trying to figure out what is intended from the circle scene with Amalisa, Nynaeve, and Egwene but we're nearly all making assumptions about the use of the one power that stem from the books.  If most of these don't apply in the show, then a lot of the back and forth is largely irrelevant.

23 minutes ago, DreadParrot said:

In terms of the discussion over how they have altered the dynamics of saidar and saidin…

 

*They seem to be intentionally murking the waters here to prevent audience from having to learn a lot of rules and lore.

 

*They seem to be avoiding the need for training and teaching. Those aspects have virtually vanished from the written story. No scenes of Lan drilling the EF5, no scenes of Moiraine or other sisters working with Egwene/Nynaeve. Moiraine intentionally avoiding either attempting to help Rand understand his power, explain she is incapable of assisting him, or showing she actually can assist him. Instead she avoids the topic because it would contribute to his insanity. Intuitive learning seems to be their preferred route. 
 

*There has been painfully little distinction between the different flows, limitations on how it can be used, and now show-canon alterations to the rules of channeling. Linked channelers being forcibly overdrawn and burned out is a tangible and important change. 
 

why does this matter? Anyone who read or watched Death Note would potentially agree that working within the rules established by the Note was a huge part of the appeal. Most readers of the Wheel are endeared to the lore and very detailed dynamics of channeling. The whole power split and gender driven system was intentionally designed to eliminate mumbo jumbo Latin phrases and some hand waving to solve problems. The system designed helped drive the story and added nuance and layer. The show is skipping over those aspects or diluting them either because they lack understanding themselves, lack the confidence in an audience to follow the trail they need to lay down, or simply don’t care about the importance. 
 

 

I agree completely. I think for whatever reason the showrunners have decided the details (even the broad ones) of channeling as a magic system will not translate well to television (maybe they're right and the average viewer isn't interested?) and we really need to let go of pretty much everything we know about the one power from the books.

A lot of people (myself included) seem to be getting very frustrated with the show when it ignores the rules of the one power. I think to enjoy this series we need to accept that almost none of the rules or details are part of the TV series world.

Looking through the first season it seems to me that all that has definitely been kept in is:

• Female channelers go to the White Tower to train;
• Magic users have varying levels of strength in the power;
• Applications of the one power have been kept broadly true to the books but any hierarchy or organisation weaves is unclear or non-existent
• Magic use involves working with power that comes from outside the channeler
• Linking/circles
• Stilling

That's it. I don't think anything else is confirmed show-canon. So all our speculation about blocks, Healing as a talent, saidin/saidar may be totally irrelevant as these may not be 'things' in the TV show.

36 minutes ago, Ralph said:

 

Did you kill Loial?

I didn't kill Loial. Everyone is worried about it. I can say that he is safe, alive and currently shooting for season 2. And that there are a couple people who are at death's door at the end of the finale who are not dead and a couple people who are in fact dead.

Hopefully, the finale will prepare people emotionally for the deaths that will come. Because one thing The Wheel of Time books do so beautifully is they maintain a massive cast of characters for 14 books. And we can't do that in a television show. So, there will be shocking deaths to come, but I can confirm that this is not the end of Loial. 

 

From https://comicbook.com/tv-shows/news/wheel-of-time-episode-8-spoilers-rafe-judkins-interview/

 

I assume this is what you meant by the second one, but I don't think he says that

 

I also recall him early in the series saying he can't wait for people's reactions to some of the (real) deaths in future seasons

I think the comment that they can't maintain a big cast of characters is ridiculous (and demonstrably false by comparison with GoT). Absolutely streamline, and combine, and ditch characters where needed, but I don't see any reason that would actually prevent them from maintaining a large cast. This seems like a weak excuse at justifying wanting to kill off characters.

5 hours ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

Doesn't solve the problem of the three oaths.

 

 

 

 

Yes.  There are three places (generally) you can put heavy cavalry in the terrain as laid out in the scene each have their advantages and disadvantages.

 

1.) In front of the wall 

2.) Inside the wall as a counter-attacking force if the initial attack bounces off the wall's defenses

3.) Behind the wall (either inside Fal Dara or just in front of Fal Dara)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Possibly.  Trollocs are basically heavy cavalry/infantry.  Channellers would break their momentum but they are not very maneuverable and they can be fairly easily bypassed via simple momentum.

 

Also, take into account the channellers level of combat readiness.  Green sisters would work well in front of the wall.  Untrained or less trained channellers would be less effective.

 

 

 

I 100% don't agree with this.  They wanted to show that Agelmar was confident but not completely wrong.  The defense worked even if it was costly.   The dramatic stakes were the driving element of the battle's construction.   They wanted a costly victory or a near defeat based on how the battle progressed.

 

There's no reason to assume anything other than story functionality as a motive for any decision they made in the show.

  

 

 

Amalisa and the two random female channelers weren't bound by the three oaths so any tactical planning wouldn't need to consider them.

16 hours ago, 7th age said:

 

Since this is a response to a response to a post of mine, but more importantly because this seems to be the main dividing point over which this fanbase splits I feel I should make myself very clear here.

 

For context let me first say that Im a lefty. I dont live in the USA but if I was Idve voted for Bernie. I also consider myself a first and second (but not third) wave feminist and I have attended anti-neonazi protests since I was 12. This is to dispell any notion that I am somehow "anti-woke". I wouldnt consider myself "woke" either (I hate that word, in part because it is used as a slur by people who often(but not always) are quite openly racist and misogynist, but mostly because it is imprecise)

Im also a trained physicist/scientist, meaning I was trained to seperate the analysis of a problem from the judgement that only follows after.

 

Now, when analyzing this one has to be very careful, because if you view something through a colored lens everything becomes monochromatic and most of the time, if you search for signs of something hard enough, you end up finding them and ignoring everything else. Certainly some of the "nerfing all the men"-crowd have fallen into this trap which amuses me greatly as it reminds me of the feminist complaint that female videogame characters (think LoL here) are often portrayed in a sexist way, scantily clad armor, big boobs etc. , which is true but completly ignores that the same is true for the men, i.e. giant muscles, chisseled chins etc...

 

 

 

That all being said, it is impossble for me to deny that modern feminist ideology has played a part in shaping this season. Whether or not I think that is good or bad in each individual case is immaterial to this at first.

 

 

Now there are plenty of other reasons that should be considered first when analysing this.

 

For example, the downpowering of Logain (he gets held by 2 -3 AS instead of 6 if i remember correctly) has nothing to do with a desire to "nerf men" and everything to do with an episode that doesnt work so well if most of the scenes happen in an overcrowded cave. Could you avoid this by changing the setting? Yes, but thats a whole lot of cost (lets remember here that most ppl think ep 4 was the best or at least close) for not a lot of gain (Logains accurate strength beyond he is strong is irrelavant to the series).

 

Similarly you can argue that showing the womens circle is important for Nynaeve and Egwene and gives us the river scene which I think most bookies liked, whereas showing the Village Council would do nothing similar for the boys(though it would show balance, but time is scarce).

There are other examples.

 

 

When we want to actually understand whether or not ideology plays a part in this season or not we first need to define what exactly we are talking about. In the shortest way possible, the heart of modern (third wave) feminism /wokeness in general is the denial of biological sex as a relevant factor and instead explaining everything in terms of gender or sociological/psychological sex (which to me is just as absurd as most right wing positions that try to postulate the opposite, obviously both biology AND sociology play a role in forming humans).

It also includes a normalizing of non heteronormative sexual relations(which I personally think is a good thing so long as it means being tolerant towards those that get born with these inclinations but can become a bad thing if it is expected to be the new norm, i.e. just because Im in favor of viewing LGBT people in the same light as everyone else doesnt negate the fact that the large majority  are plain old heteros)

 

Now these two "tropes" can be found abundantly throughout the season and this is where it becomes clear that at the very least this worldview of the showrunners has influenced their decision making, at worst they are actively trying to rebuild parts of the world of WoT in this image. At this point I will remind you guys that Rafe said this before the season ever started, he thinks there are things that Jordan would have written differently if he were to write the books today and he hopes to implement this ...

 

But lets get more concrete. In no less then 4 episodes in a row we get told/shown how normal homo/bi sexual relations are. Dana mentions it at length in ep 3 . we get humorously shocked Nyn in ep4,  Lan and Steppin talk about it in ep5 (which is actually very offensive as they almost imply that being gay/bi is a choice, a notion the gay community has fought for decades) and then we get Moirain and Siuan.

None of these thing bother me on their own, I expected Siuan and M. and I found Nyn reaction funny, but together they start to paint a picture here, because after all screen time is very very valuable...

 

Lets get to the first "trope", the denial of biological differences. Obviously this is not to mean that men have Boobs or can carry babies etc..  Rather it goes into into denying/minimizing the differences that come with men being physically superior but less socially/emotionally adept.

This is why we have scenes like Egwenes father being super worried, Steppin moping about instead of going out in a rageinduced berserkersuicide and ofc Lans whole transformation from "stoneface" to crying at a funeral and being quite in touch with his feelings. Again, this isnt necessarily bad. I think it works when it comes to Lan/Nyn especially because being stoic doesnt mean you are emotionally inept, just that you arent prone to showing emotions in public. I really didnt like it at the funeral, because here it seems forced to me (but thats just opinion). 

This also seems part of the reason why we get to see a whole lot of tears and crying and whining from Rand and Perrin. Im not saying that this was done bad or without incharacter reasons, but  it was a choice to focus, especially Perrins arc, on this. They could have chosen to highlight other parts just as well but didnt.

 

Now for the minimizing of difference in physical strength.

This starts with the Emondsfield women being the only resistance to the trollocs, goes on to Dana trapping and chasing Rand with a sword and lands in the sacrifice of the core principals of the Borderlanders(for people who claim to admire the diversity of RJs cultures they sure didnt  care about this one). The Borderlander culture is based on chivalry. They would rather die then let a women take a wound. Throughout the series there are loads and loads of rules set by women that the men have to and do follow, remember what Agelmar tells rand when  he wants to say goodbye to Egwene, they do not necessarily understand the womens rules, but they abide by them. So it is not a matter of disrespect. The price for this chivalry is the (afaik)  ONLY rule ever imposed on women by men, that is they are not allowed to fight shadowspawn / join the men fighting in the blight(not even Tenobia, queen of Saldea could break this even though she manages to ignore it at the LB and promptly gets herself killed). I wrote about this earlier, this always made supreme sense to me, for one because women on average are physically much weaker then men (womens football/soccer nationalteam cant win against an average U16 mens club even though at that age there is almost no height difference, also Siuan Sanche agrees, see the TGH lection with Nyn/Eg), but more importantly because while you can ask people to die in a hopeless fight against the shadow in order to protect their loved ones and most will be willing to take on enormous risk, but if you ask them to die WITH their loved ones/wives and especially children any decent husband/father will take his family and run.

But instead of showing this as one of many cultures we get to see loads of women with swords and armor and Amalisa calls on all women and children to stay and fight/die(after all she doesnt expect to win here).

 

Now finally for the part that doesnt need any "trope". In ep.1 Moiraine clearly states that "the arrogance of men" was responsible for the breaking. At the time I wrote this of as unreliable narration which made sense to me in a world where the prophecies are muddled, but the cold open of season 8 flatout confirms this to be true. It is not arrogance and desperation, it is not due to the fact that the plan of the women /LPD for whom if I remember correctly LTT orignally postponed his plan at first and only came back to it later after the womens plan became untenable, it is purely due to the arrogance of men (whereas the women were wise enough to exactly forsee the consequences of something that has never been done before...).

It is those last 2 things, both happening in ep8 that broke the camels back for me.

 

Note that I am not going into a lot of the complaints voiced here before:

- Lan getting responsibility for the break up of the group (M. says your losses are my losses, but she is unconscious at the time and  warns against it before) but not getting his decapitating a Fade moment; 

the whole tracking thing;

-M. Eg. Nyn. and Shaiel getting their visually awesome moments, most if not all of which I liked (someone noted earlier that badass moments dont make strong characters which might be true for the poster but is at least only half true for the vast majority of viewers, Nyns explosion as well as the fight are  a big reason ep.4 was so well received, also lets not kid ourselves people watched GoT because of battles and dragons and smart intrigue not because they enjoyed cersei drinking wine and looking out of a window) but there being nothing remotly similar for the men up to them giving Rands power moment to the women;

-giving Mat and Perrin nasty backgrounds and nasty endings (ones a potential DF at this point the other just lets his friend bleed out and the Horn just taken away, heck even if he follows the Way of the Leaf he couldve tried to at least block them and then get knocked down or wounded, the tinkers did it earlier)

-etc.

 On their own all these things can be explained by other factors which is why I dint include them in my original argument, but the sheer number of them adds weight to the general argument.

 

There is also at least one (very minor yet still I hoped for this before the season) aspect to this that i think is 100% positive, they managed to show non-gratitious nudity (bathhouse scene with the first selector), something that could be very helpful in properly implementing various scenes later one as well as something that I would not trust a hetero, non-nudist, man to get right.

 

 

All in all I think it is fair for everyone to judge the success and extent of these influences for themselves and we can argue/debate the merits/faults of them to our hearts content afterwards, but to actually say that there simply are no such influences, even after watching the whole season and actually reflecting on it is absurd.

 

 

 

ps. Im new here and certainly dont feel  in a position to demand new threads plus Im aware that this discussion was raging (and probably getting out of control sometimes) even after the first 3 episodes were released and I think the mods shut down some threads due to repetetivness and maybe toxcicity of the debate, but as this seems to be one of the main topics and we can now discuss this with the full season watched maybe it would be appropriate to concentrate this topic in a new thread, should the mods choose to do so so certainly feel free to transfer this post.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just wanted to say, I think your post is fantastic.  This divide between viewers has led to openly hostile exchanges, but I think also permeates a lot of posts in a more subtle way where people perhaps feel uncomfortable stating their views because of how they will be received.  You've moved the discussion of this potentially tricky and sensitive issue on in a respectful and constructive way, and in one which prompts reasoned and open debate.  Bravo in my opinion!

On 12/27/2021 at 11:03 AM, ilovezam said:

I think to have character growth you do need to start off with a Lan that's a bit more closed off. Even if you wanted to accelerate it, at least give us a few episodes of badass warrior Lan, and then have him soften in more private moments with Nynaeve or Moiraine. His stoicism made his romance with Nynaeve that much more poignant, in that their love softened both characters and they made each other better.

I totally agree with this. Watching a character that's already at the end of their character arc at the beginning of the series is not very fulfilling or satisfying. I'm finding Nynaeve the same - she's already like Nynaeve from the end of the books.

I'm really missing seeing these characters' growth.

23 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Steppin was not about Lan, or it was to show this is different to death. Rafe has said they purposely set things up in season one that will not come to fruition until later, some as late as season 8. Steppin was all about the final battle and Moridins final gambit. The moment that Rand could have destroyed it all. 

Well, if that's the case they did a pretty awful job of that, in my opinion. It wasn't clear to non-book readers that Steppin was anything beyond really depressed by Kerene's death/his failure after having a long-term very close personal relationship with her. The show did not convey at all that the severing if the bond has a massive negative emotional impact on the channeler. 

Unless Rand and Alannah become very close in the show, Steppin's episode set up nothing for Alannah dying while holding Rand's bond that would impact the Last Battle.

13 hours ago, Ralph said:

 

Unless masking and breaking can be confused

 

Do we have any clear mention in the books of how a Warder reacts when his AS is stilled? 

I think when a brown sister gets stilled accidentally experimenting with a ter'angreal her warder dies of shock..?

And when Siuan is healed after being stilled her sense of Alric's loss comes back. So maybe if Moiraine is stilled there is no emotional impact on the bond going?

I think when the bond is masked during the books the warder is still aware of their Aes Sedai to some extent - just heavily blunted emotions and no sense of direction.

Eh, this is more confusing the more I think about it. Who knows what the show writers are going for with Lan's and Moiraine's bond here!? I just hope it makes some semblance of sense!

14 hours ago, flinn said:

 You cant use book rules for the tv show. The tv show has no rules, it is all plot driven. If it is required to pull the moon into the sun, one of the aes sedai will do it without breaking a sweat.

I totally agree but I think the show has clearly spent a lot of time building up the impact on a Warder of losing their Aes Sedai's bond (hence the Steppin episode) so it would be quite weird for them to have Lan and Moiraine's bond break and there be no emotional pay off, so to speak. 

Even if they are planning to have Moiraine have an extended absence later in the series as in the books, I think having the bond masked for ages will lessen the impact of the bond breaking on Lan so it all feels a bit confusing to me, to be honest. I'm not sure what they're going for here.

I can't imagine masking and breaking can be confused - in the books at least, the Warder would know when the bond was broken as they would feel their Aes Sedai's death and experience the resultant 'death wish'. If masking the bond protected against this, surely Aes Sedai would just mask the bond in any dangerous scenario and spare their Warders the risk of death?

From the scene between Lan and Moiraine at the end of this episode irs clear Lan doesn't experience any emotional anguish as a result of their bond (breaking or not) as he doesn't know Moiraine can't unmask the bond if she's been stilled and their bond has been broken, then where is the emotional impact for Lan they spent a whole episode on Steppin to set up..?