3 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Well, Amazon can't say it's a failure...yet. It's bad publicity.

Yeah- you are the authority on all things WoT TV....

wait this isn't the Henry FanFiC Forums.... 

so you're unreliable Gothic Flame

Just now, Blackbyrd said:

 

So you have metrics better than them? Are you that good? Just wondering

Lol- rhetorical is a style of speaking 

2 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

LOL, I'm sure Amazon's metrics are a great success.  They're all patting themselves on the back and drinking champagne.

So you have metrics better than them? Are you that good? Just wondering

2 minutes ago, WoTwasThat said:

I keep reading the same three excuses: #BecauseCovid, #OnlyHad8Hours, #BarneyJumpedShip.

 

I don't understand how any of those excuses explain the abominations - what I call The Big Changes - of this show.....

1. The DR can be male or female, severely undercutting the central premise of the series that the DR is going to be reincarnated into a world and magic system stacked against him.
2. Related to point one, the dichotomy between Saidar and Saidin and taint upon Saidin is never explained, barely alluded to, and - at best - the show plays fast and loose with all the rules appurtenant to this distinction. This (and the DR having to channel the tainted Saidin - see point 1) is what makes WOT unique, and uniquely awesome.
3. Super Power Ranger Nynaeve saves the day again, and again, and again with her stupendous and completely untrained channeling ability, at the expense of other characters. She even knows how to track Mo better than her own warder (my god). 
4. Super Power Ranger Nynaeve banging Lan in Season 1, unmarried.
5. The Dumbest Plan in History for Mo to ditch her warder and take a complete noob DR to face the DO. My god, my head still hurts thinking about how asinine this plot was.
6. The entire Eye / Tarwin Gap sequence was totally different from the books, way worse, and robs Rand of his coming out moment. Instead, Rand is revealed through a montage of Machin Shin and Rand playing detective with Min (oh my head!).
7. That LTT scene.... gah this is just killing me how terrible it's like it is deliberate.

Seriously, this is not a rhetorical question: please explain how #BecauseCovid, #OnlyHad8Hours, or #BarneyJumpedShip explains any of The Big Changes. Because without an explanation, I have no idea why I or anyone else who hated these changes should hold out any hope for future seasons.

I can explain that point 2 is the only worthwhile talking point... but you do you brosef

2 minutes ago, ilovezam said:

Well, going forward you might want to take note that quotation marks are often used to emphasize reference to the word itself. That's all there is to it when someone says "I didn't want to use the word '<word>'".

 

A nice example from Wikipedia:

 

Cheese is derived from milk. (concept)
"Cheese" is derived from a word in Old English. (word)

 

 

Fer sure bro

2 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Exactly! If they refute all criticism then they believe it perfect already…And it’s far from it.

I'm looking forward to season 2 but- yeah if they refute all criticism then yes- things are going to be worse. The idea though- that rando on the internet knows for aboslutely certain that the show will not learn after 1 season is not an actual critique- it's a point of as ilovezam would say 'View'

1 minute ago, ilovezam said:

 

 

I'm not sure you understand how quotation marks work my friend.

This is a meaningless post and I will not engage 

41 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

to the use of cheap Hollywood tropes,

This is one of the many overstated brolaments on this forum. There are so many of these lying about nearly all screen and many books that to focus in on this without addressing it's cultural prevalence is entirely lazy. What perhaps is meant that you think it's more obvious here than in other places

1 hour ago, ilovezam said:

I remember this too. It's so weird that Rafe apologists are coming out of the woodwork to say otherwise just to make him look less bad. 

 

The passive aggressive hypocricy of the 1st statement is a statement unto itself.

1 hour ago, ilovezam said:

Either way it does speak volumes about his confidence in his ability to, in his own words, "update" Robert Jordan's story, and unfortunately it did not seem to work for very many of us. 

Perhaps when you talk about your job or the job you're doing you act 'aw shucks' but the majority of people will talk them- and their team up

1 hour ago, Gothic Flame said:

Appearances, opinions...have nothing to do with logic. 

Neither does having taste.

Someone imagining he can do better, doesn't mean he objectively will.

If this gets cancelled abruptly this year (as I "believe" it will), the blame game will kick in, and I believe Rafe lacks any self-honesty to blame himself.

Yet my logic tells me you are going to say pretty much this exact same thing in near every post you make. So your opinion does have a logical skewer

54 minutes ago, ilovezam said:

 

Agreed fully that there are many failings of the show that run very close to being objectively bad. If you read Rafe's original script for Episode 1 I think it's pretty much objectively awful, awful writing, but I'm hesitant to use the word "objective" because it would just get some people very much up in arms, which makes it impossible to have a dialogue with them.

 

 

I mean it's not objective to say that your critque is awful- you're using quote marks on the word objective on a written forum. No one is defending anything if one can't even mount a proper atack against it

7 hours ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 

 

Another really good balanced review here in my opinion

 

Definitely a solid review. Regarding spectacle I'll again say that I would much rather have all the overdone spectacle at the start of the series rather than at the end like in Game- the later seasons being enjoyable but overtly reliant on 'oh damn that looks cool' effects. To be more narrow though, there is a certain amount of spectacle for the sake of spectacle that can be allowed. For instance in ep 8 the tidal wave is totally spectacle for spectacle but it can work as it doesn't necessarily have to viewed as a literal thing rather a moment of symbology- which can be a cool effect on screen. However, you couple that with the whole Nynaeve near-death experience and suddenly you have two spectacle for spectacles within moments of each other. So even if the Nynaeve death fake out was a cool effect (it wasn't really) it likely never could have stood up next to another big time cool, over the top effect to end the season. One of those areas where picking your spots on the somewhat cheesy/screenish over the top stuff is worth thinking about. Again though- much rather see this at the start than at the end.

I think it's also important to address the Nynaeve Supernova phenomenon. Was them killing like 10k trollocs good? No. As the review states it somewhat undermines the Trollocs that they can do that without a Sa or the Eye at this point in time. However, the idea that 5 woman channelers are an uber powerful is a good effect and especially regarding Nynaeve and I defintely don't mind that she got those immediate power visuals in the 1st season

On 1/3/2022 at 7:28 AM, Jaysen Gore said:

And here we have the heart of the issue - it's not that LOTR didn't have major changes, it's that you agree with the changes they made.  So you're downplaying them.  And Jackson basically said "Tolkien didn't get this right" in a number of interviews. as has Judkins.  So there's no purity test from the directors, either.

 

I don't agree with many of the changes that were made in WoT, and have been vocal about them.  A lot of small decisions smack of bad writing in the Hollywood tradition. But for the most part, I understand the decisions they're making in the context of a pandemic produced season 1 of a TV show when more than 1/2 of the content of the series needs to get dropped.  So I at least have some belief that they will be able to produce an internally consistent version of WoT. Even if it's not exactly like the books.

 

And going further into actually giving Wot or any adaptation really a good critique then one has to look at what changes work, and the way they did or did not work. For instance: the whole DR mystery is pretty bleh to me but it apparently worked pretty well for a lot of people which has always made sense. I may not care for a lot of TV style writing but their is data there. Another thing to remember isn't that Jackson or Rafe likely think that they are better than the author but rather they and their entire crew are putting their own stamp on it, and anyone who thinks that wouldn't happen must have missed the majority of all adaptations across time as literally that will always happen in a screen adaptation, and it in fact did happen to the very ending of the books of WoT

As for comparing it to Witcher there is an interesting possibility that Rafe and Co are very much aware of the Witcher and know full well there's no way they will be able to out bro it. The Witcher almost assuredly has most of the casual Thrones fans & all the other fantasy broskis who dig the action, the nudity, and the 'realistic' grit locked up. There are a lot of epic moments in Wot but trying to out bro a show that stars Cavill probably isn't the right play- and look what they did, they played to the soft core romance crowd -which is huge- and are even playing around with the dreaded love triangle but even that could work because the crowd that gets into that are for the most part opposite of all the Witcher brochachos you see on this very forum. Now all that may not even be a thing but the point is that it's important to remember how much data TV/Movie executives have, and all that data does work even if it produces results that are often not as deep or compelling -that would involve taking a chance- as they could be

2:40 is when it really looks great and like 2:49 is when I got totally geared up and was going hell yeah!

On 12/30/2021 at 6:15 PM, Keyser said:

 

 

Without droning on for another two pages, overall 4/10. I may give the second season a chance, but honestly, I probably won't. Too many threads (pun intended) of the story have gone off in a bad direction already and I think it's very unlikely that it can be salvaged, or that the current show leadership is likely to even try. Back to waiting for another, more faithful adaptation, however unlikely that may now have become.

I appreciate the lack of droning and the way it totally belongs

On 12/29/2021 at 8:06 AM, notpropaganda73 said:

 

Really fair review of the season as a whole from Daniel Greene here in my opinion. 

 

Since he said pretty much most of the things I've written on this board I'll have to endorse this review. I rate it higher in that I don't mind the uneveness as much and I approach it more as casually rather than as a hardcore enthusiast. My grade is also more accepting of starting jitters. In a way I see this season kind of like the end seasons of Game of Thrones. Very fun immersion to watch and was enjoyable but did many things that were not as smooth- and I prefer that it starts this way, just as a young sheepherder was not always so smooth. Yet, he finished well enough

Anyway to encapsulate the point of the uneveness of the 1st season let me point out one of the moments Greene doesn't like- the visual above, of Rand embracing the power at the Eye. One of the sweetest moments visually to me was when Rand very first embraced the power in the dream. There was this kind pan and Josha had this amazing swagger that still has me nodding. However- the kind of freeze frame pan and coiling of the power that it cuts to the eye just had me, like Greene, doing the shaking my head moment. It started off with brilliance then faded into something not horrible, but subpar for sure. I don't mind that shift in quality all that much but I get that for some people that shift can be jilting- and it happened quite often. This instance being especially noteworthy as it changed in quality literally from one second to another. Am hopeful and expecting that they can get good feedback on those parts that really work.

Having said all that Greene also thinks that Eye could be adapted to the screen and be great... I'm somewhat skeptical of that in 8 or even 10 hours. Very good, or excellent? Yes, but great? I dunno. Eye just has that much pace 

oh yeah I also enjoyed that he caught that they were pretty abysmal at marking time throughout the 1st season. So many quick scenes that could have helped mark time were missed and they could have really developed some character interaction

54 minutes ago, SingleMort said:

I know there's a lot that can be cut. I mean Crossroads of Twilight can be condensed into 15 mins IMO. But my point is GoT had half as many books and about a season more episodes and even then it felt rushed. I mean I don't want to say the show is doomed or anything like that but I just don't see how this can work.

I think this is something you have to come to terms with if you want to enjoy the series. Most of the complaints on here basically boil around the idea that this is planned to go down in around 60 hours of TV which one could -without being wrong- call an abomination. As a 60 hour adaptation, even done by the most skilled creative, is likely never going to do true justice to the mountain that is the entirety of the work. So there while a lot of the same things will happen, some cool scenes may be added like blood snow there will also be moments that will be very head scratchy, and I expect season 1 to have been the most as Eye is just a crazy pace.

I do think there's a plenty of entertainment value to be had if you spend a good majority of time into Dumai and speed things up after that. The nice thing is since the books are actually finished they won't just decide they're bored and just starting rushing a la Thrones. They'll actually have a decent lay out of some of the stuff they want to happen ahead of time instead of leaving around the old starbucks cup on camera

4 hours ago, Skipp said:

 

This is a theory of what happened in the book.  The "DO" planted several stories of a threat to the Eye meaning to lure the DR there.  After Rand does what he does in the book they find a shattered seal.  So even in the books this plot line has always been a theory as to why the DO pushed our heroes there.

I think it's definitely a legit theory that the Eye was one possible way to cleanse saidin -one of the very few acts the DO really didn't want- and Rand was lured there to get rid of it before he had the experience and possibly do something even more sinister but then Aginor started feeling himself and running his mouth and woke the Dragon who then went and did Dragon things like immolating Aginor, ripping through an army of shadowspawn then smacking down Ba'alzamon 1 vs 1 for good measure

3 hours ago, JenniferL said:

Leigh Butler’s review. 
 

https://time.com/6131394/wheel-of-time-season-finale-review/?fbclid=IwAR0zKqQCkdE_hGOh3AFQQeTXUglZdH4i7KDw9GmJ9m5tZ-bBHHDM-1xO3j8

Well I'm kinda glad I don't need to think about writing a review as this one basically sums it all up for me.

I would love to know what would have happened in 7 & 8 if Mat had been there

27 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

@Blackbyrd I think you might've meant "count on one hand", but I can actually think of and offhandedly name a large number of book-to-screen adaptations that have matched or exceeded the quality of their source material:

* The Hobbit Trilogy

* The Lord of the Rings Trilogy

* The CW's Nancy Drew

* His Dark Materials

* Tina Fey's Mean Girls

* Disney's The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe

* Disney's Prince Caspian

* MGM's The Wizard of Oz

* Harry Potter

* Starz's Black Sails

* BBC's The Musketeers

 

No I meant two hands- as many modern books are more adaptable to the screen than there were in times gone by as the screen is much more of an inspiration to modern writers than in previous times.

And I won't take up the argument as it's getting off topic but out of those listed that I'm familiar only the Wizard of Oz would get a hard agree from the general consensus

2 hours ago, pretty_blossom said:

All in all - a TV show is never like the books, I need to stop comparing them.

This likely enhances the viewing experience. I thnk it's easy to forget that one can probably count on two hands the number of times a movie/tv show has exceeded or even matched book source material. The Godfather being the most notable exception as the book was just a fun 3 star page turner while the duology are more often than not considered 5+ star movies

64 hours of live action (in it's current state of limitations) is never going to be enough to match the grandosity of the WoT books

4 minutes ago, Dead Warder said:

A small accord was issued today, even if it is temporary. Sprinkle a little magic........

 

 

Ya know as long as one doesn't engage in hyperbolic rhetoric then there's room to actually talk about some of the things we like or dislike which is ya know... interesting. So I'm glad to be about this accord ?

Just now, Dead Warder said:

Well, maybe I'm just happy that they even added that scene in, given that so much was removed in total. I'm probably just inflating my joy on this one part... which ironically is the only part of this episode I liked.

 

I'll shut my trap about it now and walk on. ✌️

Lol so basically you're my opposite in this ?

I also did think it was also pretty nicely trolly of them to do the 3000 years ago thing and then not do Prologue. Nicely done

6 minutes ago, Dead Warder said:

Perhaps that scene was just (for now) a simple nod for the book readers to enjoy. For me it was perfect for what it was, save for one tiny little word that made my hand clench... (Reborn). 99.27% spot on.

I'm glad you enjoyed it that thoroughly. For instance the whole thing happens with one Lews' infant children in the room is pretty great symbolism that I loved but the direct dialogue like 'to think it all happened in a nursery' is one a few instances -another being the Dragon Reborn thing- that just made me generally feel the scene did not work that well

27 minutes ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

 

As people have pointed out though - they've gotten "the spirit" of LTT wrong - and recast the whole scenario in a totally different light.

 

lt hits on some points that are made later in the books but I think it just speaks to the lack of dramatic tension in the scene that makes it seem worse. Another point of solid criticism would be that there isn't much groundwork for the viewer to understand the stakes or even the state of mind of the two participants

23 minutes ago, Dead Warder said:

I thought that scene was great - I was really surprised that they actually created a visual of Latra and Lews together, discussing what to do about sealing the Bore. Pretty cool actually.

 

I've always remembered/read that Telamon was The Dragon and al'Thor was the Dragon Reborn.

Right, I loved the idea of the scene but for me it was too direct without any type of edge regarding an action that did end up breaking the world. Add in some small irks like 'Dragon Reborn' rather than Dragon or Lord of the Morning etc and i don't think it worked that well. I mean technically Lews Therin is always the Dragon and is always reborn so yes it's technically true but having it in the conversation is an eye roll

2 minutes ago, Dead Warder said:

Does anyone know yet why Latra referred Lews as the Dragon Reborn?

 

It's my only question I have, and an honest one at that.

Technically I guess Lews Therin is always the Dragon Reborn, but it was just one many details that helped drag down an otherwise intruiging scene/scenario not seen in the books

19 minutes ago, Arthellion said:

I think the biggest thing for non book readers was... my wife was like "Okay why is there a season two? Why is this not the last battle. Rand just took out the Dark One Right. Why does it matter that Whistle dude has the gold box?"

Really this is a great compliment and critique of the show's first season

Complimentary in that it does capture Rand's POV from the books

Critique in that the gold box is one of those details that likely wasn't given enough detail to make the watcher be totally on board with caring about